Local Printer in Washington refuses to print flyer for gay nightclub because it goes against their Christian morals. They said it was nothing against homosexuals. They just didn't want to promote the "lifestyle."

Very well spoken. You can't discriminate based on an immutable trait of a class of people. Thank you jackshin.

You say:
" I find it ironic when gays call themselves christians."

Because there is nothing within the Bible that is against homosexuality.
Nothing in the Bible condemns adult consenting relationships
with members of the same sex.
Passages condemning men trying to rape angels
have been used to condemn homosexuality.
Passages condemning men being with male temple prostitutes
have been used to condemn homosexuality.
Passages condemning men being with male child prostitutes
have been used to condemn homosexuality.
There are even gay love stories in the Bible- like David and Jonathan.

You say:
" If you truly believe yourself a christian then you should live by ALL that is christian. Or look for somewhere else for the meaning of life"

This is impossible because there is no one definition of what it is to be Christian.

You know there are white-supremacist Christian Churches, and all-black Christian Churches. Both are using the same book as their guiding light, yet come to VASTLY different conclusions about what it says.

Religious people have their beliefs first, and then force those beliefs into how they read scripture. They ignore what goes against their beliefs, and reinterpret other things to conform to their beliefs.

I would disagree, I feel like most Christians know what it means to follow the bible. Just because you're pointing to an extreme (like a white supremacist Church) MOST churches preach the same values (obviously varying between sects). Instead of nitpicking the details I think we can all agree that too many people claim their christian and then don't live by those principles. I don't understand gays should be left out of that same standard.

Either way I agree with your end-point, people "ignore what goes against their beliefs and reinterpret other things to conform" to them.

My point was that I find it ironic that people rag on a christian for not wanting to purport gay lifestyles. And that furthermore gays also often claim that their christian when their lifestyle clearly contradicts the widely accepted interpretation of the Bible (lets use the Roman Catholic Church's stance as a benchline rather than nitpick the wide-variety of congregations across the nation) Its his own business and if he doesn't want to support that cause he should have his choice. He isn't even discriminating against all gay customers, he just didn't want to lend his talents to propagate a lifestyle he didn't support.

It seems to be the whole fuss about gay rights is gay-marriage. Why is the government involved in marrying people anyway? Shouldn't that be something left to the church?

You know, I tried to follow your logic and I even read your answer twice. Slowly. But you are either confused about what your point is or you smoked a bowl before writing. I can't respond to your post. It makes no logical sense.

You say:
" MOST churches preach the same values (obviously varying between sects)"

That is just it- there are hundreds of different Protestant denominations, as well as individual variation. I gave to examples of extremes to represent the whole range that falls in-between those extremes. It is not just those two outliers with everyone else clumped in the middle.

Look at the Shakers, the Quakers, the Pentecostals, the Fundamentalists, the Westboro Baptist Church, the Metropolitan Community Church, the Coptics, the Catholics, the Gnostics- they all have almost NO beliefs in common.

They are really all over the place.

I know- I am an atheist, but I have studied religion.

No, most Christians don't know what it means to follow the Bible, because most Christians have not even read the Bible.

Ask any Christian- has God ever commanded men to rape women? They would say no, Never! God is loving and good and would never do such a thing! Yet, God does exactly that on a number of occasions.

The Bible is a book filled with contradictions- and as I said, people pick and chose what parts to believe, what parts to ignore, and what parts to twist.

You say:
"My point was that I find it ironic that people rag on a christian for not wanting to purport gay lifestyles. And that furthermore gays also often claim that their christian when their lifestyle clearly contradicts the widely accepted interpretation of the Bible"

My point is that your point is wrong- people have their beliefs FIRST, and they make scripture conform to those beliefs LATER.

Christians who are bigots simply use Christianity as an excuse for bigotry- we know this because there are plenty of Christians who are not bigots, and are just as Christian.

As I said, there is nothing inherent in Christianity that is incompatible with homosexuality. Homosexuality does NOT "clearly contradict the widely accepted interpretation of the Bible". It contradicts the Fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible.

There is even a whole Christian denomination, the Metropolitan Community Church, based on accepting gay people, and has almost entirely gay clergy.

Actually, this attack of Christianity against homosexuality is a rather new thing. Durring the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church performed commitment ceremonies for male couples. Granted, they were not the same as marriage ceremonies, but they indicated that the two men were united in love.

You say:
"It seems to be the whole fuss about gay rights is gay-marriage. Why is the government involved in marrying people anyway? Shouldn't that be something left to the church?"

No, gay rights deals with lots of other issues; employment, housing, hate crimes, education, media deceptions, etc. Marriage is just a political hot-button right now.

There is debate on if the government should be involved with marriage or not, but you have to realize that religious marriage ceremonies and Civil mariage contracts are two COMPLETELY separate things.

They have NOTHING to do with each other at all- they just use the same word.

A civil mariage licence offers a couple legal protections and guarantees certain rights of one spouse to the other involving inheritance, health care, and a long list of other legal issues.

Let me sum this up:
You think there is a uniform consistency in Christianity, and it excludes gays.
There is not, and it does not.

To be honest on the marriage, I personally find government is overreaching. Marriage was a religious institution. To me if the federal government tries to restrict or regulate marriage, then it will be violating the separation of church and state clause.

But it wasn't the gays that voted for the "in defense of marriage act," And since it is the law of the land, I can only assume that the law does not violate separation of church and state.

Therefore, marriage is no longer a religious act.

And thus if follows why would you find it ironic that gays want to get married.

Well, you understood his logic and your right about beliefs coming before the evidence. There are a number of studies that verify that point. Researchers have to use double blind studies to try and avoid this bias. That is why replication is important. The human mind tends to find what ever it is that it is looking for. The belief definitely comes first and then we shape the evidence to support the belief. It makes you wonder if there is any such thing as empirical evidence. In this case, utopiansky is correct that the Bible does not contradict homosexuality.

There is very good point. It shows the contradiction of claiming defense of marriage vs. protecting "God's interests" here on earth...as defined by religious fanatics of course. Which by way, has nothing to do with God.

Between you, utopiansky, and jackshin, I would NOT want to get into a pissin match! haha! Very very good points. Remind me to call you when I need to argue with someone. Good work.

Your point is taken. It does seem draconian to force them to print it. Yet, we force them to have a business license and obey the laws. If the law forbids discrimination, then it is a fine line they have to balance themselves. I think the real issue here isn't whether or not a flyer was printed; but that there are folks who want to hurt the gay community in the name of religion. That is the story behind this story.

Sexuality is not a protected class. I believe that is the legal basis for those who support the merchant

However, the Federal Civil Rights act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation,

And even though sexuality is not a protected class, a private company open to the public can only rightly refuse service if the exclusion was to protect a legitimate business interest.

There is nothing in the printer's statement that suggests he felt his business would suffer from printing the posters. The FCR rulings are rather clear, and most state constitutions go even further by making "arbitrary discrimination" unlawful.

Simply put, a business cannot arbitrary refuse service based soley on a person's party affiliation, job or sexual perference. You have to serve republicans, police officers, and gays.

Right on answer. I am going to post it on the original article comment section. Thank you for that. It helps to be reminded of what the laws actually say. People have opinions but then there is the facts. Thanks again.

Would you say the same if he had done this to a black man? Or a Mexican or Asian, pick your minority. Why is the story always different for gays?

If we believe that, then what was the point of the civil rights movement., the civil war, heck lets throw away our clothes, and dawn togas. The problem with your criticism is the fact that christian, like the slave owners of yesteryear cloak their bigotry and hatred in religion.

The religious expression, or lack of, is not just about rights, is about how christian's do not believe in separation of church and state.

South Park is a cartoon. Yes they make political statements, but that doesn't mean they are always correct. If you are allowed to discriminate against one group, then you can discriminate against any group. Our democracy is set up to prevent that. It's funny that America was birthed for the sake of religious freedom. And now it is that religion that wants to take the rights away from others. How ironic.

Can you imagine that, what kind of uproar would that cause over at fox. Excluded because of their beliefs, that being said if newsmax add pops up, on current tv....well, sure we will take your money

If they refused service to a black man they would already have lawsuits pending against them and a mob in the street, but if they refuse service to a gay man it's different? What makes it different? Oh thats right because other people believe its a choice. you know what's a choice, hate is a choice, and hate must not be tolerated!

I hope you aren't a Jew or black.

No they wouldn't. Any privately owned bussiness reserves the right to serve whomever they please, legaly. Not saying I agreee with the discrimination, I am just reiterating what the law says. But Im sure it varies from state to state.

No, it's consistant across the entire Nation, thanks to the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Yeah, it's one of those Liberal laws you hate so much.
Equality and all that.

http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=97&page=transcript

TITLE II--INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST DISCRIMINATION IN PLACES OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION
SEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

(b) Each of the following establishments which serves the public is a place of public accommodation within the meaning of this title if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:

(1) any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence;

(2) any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises, including, but not limited to, any such facility located on the

premises of any retail establishment; or any gasoline station;

(3) any motion picture house, theater, concert hall, sports arena, stadium or other place of exhibition or entertainment; and

(4) any establishment (A)(i) which is physically located within the premises of any establishment otherwise covered by this subsection, or (ii) within the premises of which is physically located any such covered establishment, and (B) which holds itself out as serving patrons of such covered establishment.

Their website is down, there number has been disconnected and people who show up at the front doors apparently find them locked. The man lives in Seattle, if he is smart he is already on the run as far and fast as he can.

Thats what I call local activism. You got it.

lol if i put on a movie at 3am with explosions and what not, he won't make a sound, but if i have headphones on at 3pm he would come in and tell me its too loud, no joke...

the crap people do for religion

The article has comedic bylines in the illustrations and even comedians are concerned with gay issues. This story was No. 1 on Comedy, Arts, Tech, Green, Music, and Movies. Aside from that, the illustrations are funny even though the story is serious.

It is more than a mere right. Ignorance and intolerance is enthusiastically encouraged here in America. We are supposed to be moronic delusional ignoramuses who are divided against each other. We are supposed to be distracted by myths and motivated by fear and hatred. While we're busy being retarded, the owners of this country are taking more and more power and wealth for themselves. A stupid, distracted electorate is easily manipulated.

Ya they said the same thing about refusing service to African Americans in the 50's

Agreed 100%

If it is your argument that business owners are compelled to serve everyone who comes in the door you are incorrect. The owner has the right to refuse service. Get over it.

So, what you are saying is, you have never heard of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Yeah, it's one of those Liberal laws you hate so much.
Equality and all that.

http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=97&page=transcript

TITLE II--INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST DISCRIMINATION IN PLACES OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION
SEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

(b) Each of the following establishments which serves the public is a place of public accommodation within the meaning of this title if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:

(1) any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence;

(2) any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises, including, but not limited to, any such facility located on the

premises of any retail establishment; or any gasoline station;

(3) any motion picture house, theater, concert hall, sports arena, stadium or other place of exhibition or entertainment; and

(4) any establishment (A)(i) which is physically located within the premises of any establishment otherwise covered by this subsection, or (ii) within the premises of which is physically located any such covered establishment, and (B) which holds itself out as serving patrons of such covered establishment.

That's what I'm saying.

I understand what you are saying. I am not say they were not polite, intelligent, and passed their road test, I'm sure they were. What I'm saying is in a free society you should be able to do business, or not do business, with whoever you want for whatever reason without government interference because it is your money and it is none of their God damned business. And if you choose not to take their money, certainly someone else will.

A free society means that citizens are free from excessive government; free to move about without restriction; free from racial and religious discrimination; and freely can access a judicial system to plead any injustice. It does not mean: free to do whatever you want to whomever you desire. Freedom of speech has never been interpreted to allow you to scream fire in a theater. A free society does not mean that the KKK can burn blacks at the cross. A free society guarantees that its members can enjoy equal and fair treatment. A free society works at correcting injustices instead of encouraging harm to others. Your free society lets you write on this website but it doesn't let you threaten harm to this website. With freedom comes responsibility. You should never take your freedom for granted. The price tag paid has not been your blood or mine. It has been someone else's blood spilled so that you can write freely and responsibly. Don't spread malice and hate in the name of privacy and "that's just business." It is not. Thank you.

Some places have laws saying that businesses cant discriminate based on certain things. Like if they told someone they weren't gonna print the ad because the person asking for it was black, that might be illegal. It's just a matter of when they change it to include sexual orientation. Of course religious groups get exempt from these things, but unless the paper is printed by a church they don't have a strong legal leg to stand on

It's flyers for a nightclub. How do you go from that to burning blacks at the cross? A little perspective, please.

It's flyers for a nightclub twenty other places in town will be glad to print. Get off your high horse. I'm not for discrimination, don't be silly, and I have more respect for The Constitution than you do, I'd bet. They won't print his flyers that he can get printed anywhere, I think society will survive. Where people get their nightclub flyers printed was probably not foremost in the founding fathers' minds I'm guessing. Talk about a mountain out of a molehill!

Cool, but I'm not a right winger.

Or you are so left wing that you can't tell the difference,

Flyers for a nighclub. Mountain out of a molehill. I apologize that I don't find this story as important as you do. I don't consider you less equal, by any means.

You want to be treated equally, great. Here's equal, you don't always get your way, life is not fair and no one said it would be, bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people, and some people dislike you no matter what you do. Now you're equal.

I read your message and I thank you. I was thinking about your comment regarding "if it's your money you can do whatever you want with it." Money exists because a government, of the people, by the people, PRINTED IT. It is intended as a tender for the convenience of the people. It has nothing to do with freedom. North Korea has money and we can see that money has nothing to do with the freedom of the people. The possession of money does not imply permission to violate the civil liberties of others.

subtle. i like it.

That's called anarchy.
Instead, we have this thing called Human Rights.

So the whole Rosa Parks thing flew right over your head, huh?

Of course you don't find it important- you are a straight white christian man.
Why should you find other people's lives important?

They might not like it, but as a private enterprise they couldn't (or shouldn't) be able to do anything about it. The government should not determine who you can and cannot do business with as a private business. The consumer can vote with their dollars, they may well do their business somewhere else, but it is not up to the government to determine that, or shouldn't be.

Well, that is similar to the days when we had "separate but equal" laws. Colored in this door and whites in that door. It was the law. Fortunately America came to her senses and realized that everyone was entitled to be treated equally under the laws of due process and free from blatant discrimination. The gay front is the final frontier for civil rights. Businesses can't be allowed to discriminate just because they are private. You can't assault someone just because it is in the privacy of your home. You can't own slaves just because you call it "private." That private argument doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Sorry.

Well, actually it is against the law in Washington state to discriminate based on sexual orientation. So, it kinda is a news story.

Private businesses? They can't force someone to do business with anyone for whatever reason. If I'm selling cars and I don't like your look and I don't want to sell you my car, do they force me to sell it to you anyway? Yeah, they probably do, now that you mention it. Welcome to America.

Having flyers printed for your nightclub is a right?

Oh by all means, let's be like Europe, of course.

yes, in this country I have the right to not be discriminated against. I have the right to be offered the same services for the same price as other people. This man is engaging in a public service (a public business) therefore he has agreed to abide by laws governing in his state. He knew this was a law when he opened his business. If he wanted to be allowed to discriminate he should of moved to a state where bigotry, hatred and discrimination is legal

But you thought getting a sandwich at woolworth's was a right?
How about being able to sit in the front of a bus?

Are you actually this dense, or is it that you are against the entire civil rights movement as a whole?

Getting service from a public business is a right.
Getting equal treatment is a right.
We have the right to NOT be discriminated against.

YES, when it comes to human rights we SHOULD be more like Europe.

A smart person actually looks at how other countries are, and learns from them.

I agree but I would also say we have the right to not take our business there and express their business practices to the world at large. I am with you the government should not get involved as it is not their place, it is up to the community at large to police these kind of actions by voicing their dissent and refusing them business.

You cant refuse service to someone becuase of the color of their skin, so why can you refuse service based on who they love? If you walked into a resturant and they said we wont serve you because you are straight, would you not be offened? Or what if you walked into a store and they refused you service because they said your wife was ugly and your relationship with her perverse? How then would you feel?

Does affirmative action count? Because I actually have been discriminated against because of the color of my skin in that case, and for more than nightclub flyers.

There is a good analogy. What if you were turned away from a business because you were straight? I can see it now: straight man goes to a gay auto repair shop and is refused service because he is straight. Straight man complains of reverse discrimination and the media gets all over it, wondering why would gays would discriminate against straights? And then they would ask this question: Is it legal? Can gays turn straights away from restaurants, auto shops, printers, and discount stores? Would the courts uphold the right of the gay owner to "do business with whomever he wanted?"

If the problem were on a larger scale, say for example, like offering a white lunch counter at Woolworths, it is not likely that the courts would uphold discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Listen to littlwarrior, JohnA. There is no defensible argument for discrimination except to justify your personal hatred or your uncomfortability with persons who are not of your color or race.

Discrimination is a behavior that you are not born with. You can change your heart to accept all human beings as worthy of your respect and worthy of your support.

your funny. Ha Ha Ha funny even

Great comment, Leen. You're absolutely right! What IS the big deal?

They don't have an answer for that; they never will. At least, not an answer that doesn't involve their Bible and a lot of holier-than-thou attitude.

Their "Jesus" didn't have a Bible, and he loved everyone.

Thank you, Tanz. I like your words here as well! These holier-than-thou types are hypocrites.

You're welcome, Leen.

Yep! Hypocrites *every* single time.

I agree. But if these fools want to lose business in this economy then on their heads be it. I am sure that members of the LGBT community have more things to print than just night club flyers. I am sure that their straight friends and family have things that need to be printed that will now be sent to other printers.

Just to show you what fools people are when I was graduating from college with my Art History degree some of our classmates decided to throw the graduating seniors a party (the group was all female). They decided to have an image of Michealangelo"s "David" screened on the cake. They were told that the image was pornography and one grocery store ask my classmate to please leave the store or the police would be called. It did not matter that this was an image of one of the wolds greatest statues. To them it was porn because it showed the male genitalia.

On a side note my modest Mom will not let me put my replica of "David" in the front yard. (HA HA) :-)+^d

To cut your nose of to spite your face for such silly reasons is a stupid business decision. Why should they care what the source of income is from?

Funny about you Mom--LOL! :)

the statue of david is porn, now that is funny.

If their Jesus were to return today he would probably tell them that they missed the point of all of his teachings.

...or something like that! I like it.