Women who don't submit to husbands are to blame for domestic violence, says Baptist scholar

I may be stepping out on my own limb, but it seems quite reasonable to me that most men more generally appreciate a respect that isn't simply fortuitously or flippantly arrived at from one moment to the next, as some women are rather insidiously accustomed. Enough women today do not keep the "altruistic" selflessness that more genuinely affirms a man, as his help mate. For many more women, eventually, it's all about the individualistic selfishly urgent ambition for the "experience of being a 'real' woman." Why else do 60- or 70-year-old women lie to get "in vitro"--patently regardless of the risks NOT just to themselves? Pathetically, quite clearly, it is so much about their feminist vanity, regarldess of who they affect, often enough--even be it their own children!

So when increasingly neurotic egotistical women are particularly disappointed, is it any wonder really that men are cast to appear such unreasonable, hopelessly-demanding DUMBfuqs?? Considering the source, not at all to me...

The bible has enough warning about contentious women who in their "unquestionability" for their manipulative rusings, basically just refuse to do what they really could to SUPPORT their "Loved" one in grace, honor and respect, even in suffering. And though it may not be popular among feminists, it is equally true men can and do suffer women for mental and emotional abuse as well...men too, can feel intentionally underappreciated like chattel, as well. But what do women have to say for it while they complain? Not a god damn thing. Surprising? heh...

The bible also warns us that there IS a way that SEEMS right to man, yet ends in death. Let's face it, divorces suck because selfishness is allowed destructive inescapable gravity in virtually all circumstances, and no more especially than when women do it for petty feminist individualism that seeks to create and point out incompatibilities instead of bridging them, that holds dearly misperceptions to be entirely uncorrectable rather than humbly gracefully resolvable. Many of you women who seem to demand divorce for so-called "stifling" relationships, have never even considered counseling either, men as well--yet I mention it because women tend to take such a "holier than thou" position to refusing it as well, some even sadly so not to compromise their newfound "independence" for reconciliations and the most legitimate chance for the restoration of family and marriage. Unfortunately, when women call "the game" (for worse, they generally rule out ANY possibility for a future better), they generally think they're in complete authority by "justified" disagreement.

I've also seen more than a few married or hooked-up women who are less than honoring to their husbands, even to fuq around them. Christian as well. In some cases it's quite tempting but I surely do NOT buy "all women as virtually all virtuous, hence instant victims" by default bullshit. Enough of you are fuqtup just the way you are, and yes, enough of you know just HOW precisely over time to make it the kind of worse that gets you what you want--"FREE" to do what you want and WHO you want. No sense playing stupid about it.

Disingenous femininity aside, subtle and overt forms of abuse are not good for ANYone...including men.

Women are to submit to their husbands, but men are to love their wives the way Christ loved the Church! Christ-like love does not include abusing mentally or physically!

yeah, just we what need-another intentional ignoramous! i have been in an abusive marriage for 5 years, physical then he decided to tone it down to just verbal, emotional and mental abuse since he is now a sunday school teacher! yeah, i will take the blame for marrying this man with all the red flags i was given, but does that still give him a right to abuse me? i am leaving him. i listened to so called christians who told me to stay and that divorce was wrong, but didnt really seem to take the abuse that seriously. recently read an article by rick warren who claimed he wished there was a scripture to back women leaving their abusive husbands but there is not. wake up rick! first of all, God considers abusing animals a sin, are we not much greater than they? yes ----and men are to love their wives as Christ loves the church, i doubt very seriously that Christ would abuse His children. Yes, women and men have problems in their marriage and argue but you cross the line when that turns into outright abuse. it is funny to me that now we address sins in the church such as alcohol and drug abuse, pornography, sex outside marriage, but pastors are simply too afraid to address abuse within christian marriages. If they did, it might encourage more women to come forward about it. most are ashamed and fearful, they need support and yes they need it from their church. you can turn this around anyway you like as far as trying to toss it back on the women's sin of not submitting to her husband. but common sense should tell you that a man who is abusive would probably be very difficult to submit to, mainly because he is out of God's will and the Bible says we are to submit as long as the husband is not misleading the wife in a sinful way. most of these men deny they even do this in the first place, which in turn means there is no repentance on their part. so this scholar needs to get out of denial himself about why abuse really happens. You are not helping anyone by making that remark except men. you are giving them the "ok" to abuse and to use the excuse the wife will not submit. i am sure there are plenty of men out there that have difficulties in their marriage but they do not resort to abuse. pretty pathetic that you are putting women at fault here, very insulting. these men are abusing their authority as christians, and some are just plain sick in their mind and soul and need professional help. opinons like this are better off being kept to themselves!

its amazing 21st century and wife bashing is still happening there is also husband bashing the point is no bashing should occur we call ourselves intelligent these are not acts of intelligent people and its world wide glad i am single and atheist

More bullshit "explanation" to wave in women's faces and explain our "silly woman behaviors."

I wonder if that deuche has a wife...

This is what happens to people who have been raised in an overly religious environment. Religion in enormous doses is bad for the psychological health of an individual. Thus ignorant remarks such as these are made and accepted by the congregation.

Coming from a family of Jehovah's Witnesses where female submission is part of religious devotion, his viewpoint does not surprise me. It is one of ignorance and close mindedness.

Thank Goddess I'm a pagan woman or I would be outraged.

hell yes!! finally! another reason to beat my wife!! gotta go...

Why is this getting so much attention? Chauvinists and bigots have been around for eons. Don't encourage them.

I'd actually love to see this used in a court somewhere. Womens Lib'd have a fit.

i'm sick to my stomach..

i'm an athiest but my mother and her husband are southern baptist (in northern california). their pastor talks like this. he lets us know that women should be housewives and only the husband should handle finances.

since my mom married him and converted she dropped out of school, has no more dreams of getting a job or degree, and they are almost completely broke because he doesn't handle money well.

but she's doing the lords work, so....

This man refers to women as if they were property. I have seen the outcome of such teachings and preachings. When someone really believes this man's theory, then some kind of abuse or violence is not too far down the line. If someone wants to be someone's property then let them try it. Just don't lend normalcy or standardization to it. If people respect one another then there is no reason for such doctrines to even be considered an issue.

A man should always have the last words. Those words should be "YES DEAR!" It's an old joke, couldn't help it. Hey man, if someone wants to get bossed around and treated poorly I guess it's their constitutional right. Not this party thank you. Private Ibber

This is almost as bad as when people blame the woman for being raped because of the clothes she was wearing.

This is like blaming sex-ed classes for the spread of STDs.

It's aim is to do just the opposite.

This "scholar" has made a hypothesis that is actually pretty outdated. Violent personalities are often most likely to be aggressive when they feel out of control and no longer dominate. It is not the right in any way, shape, or form but it is sorta old news.

violence is punishable by death no matter whether it is female or male violence.
Sins have no gender. Evil has no gender. This Baptist scholar is obviously possessed by demons. It is never OK to hit anyone.

that guy is an idiot. he is obviously not from planet earth to write something that makes no sense. It seems he has really used scientific evidence to prove this. what a psychopath.

People, READ THE ARTICLE!!! He did not say that it is okay for a guy to beat his wife. He said that because they are sinners they respond to the threat on their authority abusively. In theory it is the woman's role to take care of the home and the children while the man works and supports his family. In modern times this is more difficult due to cost of living and so forth. In many cases both parties have to work to be able to make a living making it harder for the man to uphold his authority. Women have become much more independent because of this. This is not a bad thing (I myself am a woman), it is just facts. Some men do not know how to respond to this so they lash out. This is no excuse however. It does not make it right, but this guy was not condoning spousal abuse. He was stating reasons why it can happen. There is a big difference.

That's BS! Sounds like a man trying to justify an inexcusable act by playing on the ignorant people in the world.

This is a perfect example of how gender roles and inequality also exists in the West, and is not only an Eastern or Muslim phenomenon.

Still think Christianity isn't harmful? Christianity indoctrinates people with authoritarian values.

even people you look up to can be complete morons...
think for yourself!

This is just so sadly representative of the way that subtle misogyny is ingrained in our culture.

I don't think that this guy's viewpoint should be taken as reflective of all Christianity or even all Southern Baptists--a sermon is, after all, just his interpretation.

However, I can't agree with his claims that he is not justifying abuse. No, he is not promoting it, but there is a subtle implication that the husband is driven to sin because of the action of the wife! That's a blame-the-victim mentality that is so completely ingrained in our culture that he may not even realize that he's perpetuating it--and I hope that the reaction to his sermon makes him aware of the way that his words can be perceived.

Everyone who thinks this shouldn't be on the air because it's claims are false and was taken seriously out of context should email feedback@current.com

here's the sermon - listen for yourself
http://feeds.feedburner.com/dbc_recent_sermons

I'm not defending Christians, I'm defending intelligence and responsible reporting

All we wanted was a clean house and are goddamn dinner on time.......nah, I'm just joking, this is really fucked up. How small of a cock does a guy have to have to carry on the submissive wife view?

I would like to hear the full recording. Something tells me this is severely taken out of context...but who knows.

echoz,

I can kind of see your point of view on this, but I'm still curious as to why there should be such stark difference between general Christian phiolosophy and Buddhist philosophy.

Ask any Buddhist if murder is wrong and 100 percent will agree that it is.

Ask a Christian and, well, a significant majority of them are demanding mandatory capital punishment while simultaenously demanding more handguns.

Why is that?

Why is it that this Christian nation has little to no problem with capital punishment, or the torture (excuse me, "aggressive interrogation techniques") at GitMo and on and on -- yetthe Buddhists seem to be uniformly against such acitivites?

Why does one group seem to suffer from endless "misinterpretations" of Scripture and the other all seem to be on the same page when it comes to their rules and beliefs?

I think it is perfectly legitimate to compare spiritual philosophies.

When it comes to violence (be it domestic or otherwise) the Buddhists are all on the same page and for all intents and purposes seem to be practicing what they preach with no disagreements or "misintepretations" of their dogma.

So isn't it fair to make the comparison between the two spiritual philosophies and come to the conclusion that, basically, the Christian philosophy is kinda/sorta inferior?

I think that's a fair discussion to have because the differences are so striking.

Buddhists aren't beating up gays, firebombing Women's Health clinics, authorizing capital punishment, authorizing "aggressive interrogation techniques, firing teachers who teach evolution, etc. All these acts are justified under Scripture (even though they are simultaneously denounced by others of the same faith). I just find it curious as to why we never see Buddhists misinterpreting their own writings to the point where they engage in such actions.

Now the counterarguement might be, "But only some of us are doing that, so it's not fair to tar all of us with the same brush."

True enough, but again if we compare the two philosophies we seem to come up with ZERO Buddhists doing any of those things in comparions to quite a few on the Christian side that do.

I'm just curious why that is. Why is there such a difference between the two spiritual philosophies that makes one very comfortable with violence (even if it's "misinterpreted") and the other all on the same page in uniform agreement that it's unacceptable?

sorry everyone hates me now because I'm copying and pasting but i called this guy evil at first and now i know he didn't say it. I APOLOGIZE

stop this post!!!

if you will read the entire "speech" you will find it says husbands do this "because they are sinners". no where in this commentary does it say "God accepts, promotes, encourages abuse" neither did the preacher state that he accepts, promotes or encourages this behavior. He has simply made a point to his OPINION in why abuse happens.

if you will read the entire "speech" you will find it says husbands do this "because they are sinners". no where in this commentary does it say "God accepts, promotes, encourages abuse" neither did the preacher state that he accepts, promotes or encourages this behavior. He has simply made a point to his OPINION in why abuse happens.

MISINTERPRETED SUBMISSION

If you e-mail him he does promptly respond...

"What you may have read on one blog or another of a sermon I preached June 22 has been horribly misrepresented by many bloggers. I can't imagine legitimizing abuse for any reason, including however one's wife might act sinfully toward her husband. I have a cherished wife of 30 years and two precious daughters whom I love dearly. The thought of abuse happening to them or to any woman, for any reason, is hideous, dispicable, and grievously sinful. I've read at least many of these blogs and can hardly recognize my own message. If you wish, you may listen to the whole (one full hour) of this June 22 message at: http://feeds.feedburner.com/dbc_recent_sermons
You still may not agree with my positions, but I hope you would see I in no way give justification to abuse as many of these bloggers have wrongly and hurtfully claimed. And just so you know, I use my "platform" as a teacher and preacher regularly to call men to treat women with deep respect, and to live with their wives in ways that build them up and show them true Christ-like love (Eph 5:25-27) and honor (1 Pet 3:7).
Blessings in Christ,
Bruce Ware"

MISINTERPRETED SUBMISSION

If you e-mail him he does promptly respond...

"What you may have read on one blog or another of a sermon I preached June 22 has been horribly misrepresented by many bloggers. I can't imagine legitimizing abuse for any reason, including however one's wife might act sinfully toward her husband. I have a cherished wife of 30 years and two precious daughters whom I love dearly. The thought of abuse happening to them or to any woman, for any reason, is hideous, dispicable, and grievously sinful. I've read at least many of these blogs and can hardly recognize my own message. If you wish, you may listen to the whole (one full hour) of this June 22 message at: http://feeds.feedburner.com/dbc_recent_sermons
You still may not agree with my positions, but I hope you would see I in no way give justification to abuse as many of these bloggers have wrongly and hurtfully claimed. And just so you know, I use my "platform" as a teacher and preacher regularly to call men to treat women with deep respect, and to live with their wives in ways that build them up and show them true Christ-like love (Eph 5:25-27) and honor (1 Pet 3:7).
Blessings in Christ,
Bruce Ware"

Didn't Jesus preach stuff about non-violence? These types seem to focus more on the archaic teachings of the old testament, rather than the things Jesus said, which is a complete insult to all of Christianity.

Somebody should beat that "scholar" and see how he likes it.

You are assuming too many people to be Christians.

the word Christian means - "of Christ"

just because you stick a feather up your butt does not make you a bird

here's the full sermon anyways, the preacher denies that he said it

http://feeds.feedburner.com/dbc_recent_sermons

Ok, I go to school in Denton where this misogynist said these ridiculous statements and I have seen first hand what these type of people are capable of. It breaks my heart that young women going to this church might grow up thinking they're responsible for being abused. Living in the Bible belt is absolute torture for an atheist!

if you will read the entire "speech" you will find it says husbands do this "because they are sinners". no where in this commentary does it say "God accepts, promotes, encourages abuse" neither did the preacher state that he accepts, promotes or encourages this behavior. He has simply made a point to his OPINION in why abuse happens. everyone wants to have free opinions and promote thier own views, but if there is any religious conotation to the opinion it is automatically wrong. why can't christians be just as free to express themselves without being shot at?????? you want the same right to express yourself without retaliation.

Bruce ruined his own name in this one. I know (and hope) that people who beleive in christianity will look at this and see that God simply does not control their natural human instincts.

Some are making the argument that we're being unfair to Christainity in general.

Perhaps.

But, let's be frank -- it ain't the Buddhists beating their wives. It's Christians. It's not the Buddhists climbing towers with high powered rifles to murder abortion doctores, it's Christians. It's not Buddhists molesting (and then covering up) kids, it's Christians.

The arguement is that it's unfair to pick this one isolated example and condemn and entire philosophy.

But this isn't "one" example.

This is more like one out of a million, isn't it?

It isn't the Buddhists sodomizing GitMo detainees and putting panties on their heads nor is it atheists -- it's the ones adhereing to a Christian philosophy.

It wasn't the Buddhists or the atheists OPPOSING desegregation in the South decades ago -- it was people holding Bibles and quoting scripture.

Again and again and again we're not seeing any of the Christians "issues" with violence being replicated in the Eastern religions.

How do we explain the fact that the Buddhists ain't doing any of the things the Christians are?

That is a fair question.

I can't find words to describe how disgusted I am by this. What makes it worse is that this man is not just some uneducated, backwoods preacher, he's a scholar, someone who must know better than the ignorant shit he's spewing. I hope he realizes that what he's said will give some men the thought that abusing women is a perfectly acceptable method of dealing with their anger because, after all, according to Bible, women were "created" to be submissive.

Any book that declares women as being inferior to men and as deserving of violence has long outlived it's need in society. The fact that there are still people who cling to this nonsense is completely and utterly frightening.

every ounce of me wants to swear that sheer stupidity ought to be a capital offense by most of the twisted perverting reactionary posts so many of you idiots cling to here on the subject...

inciteful to say the least, especially when you consider how apparent their ignorance is on the subject of marriage in actual scripture. You can easily see who never made Sunday school, that's for damn sure.

To everyone who is ripping on Christians, the bible, God, baptists..... isn't that just as ignorant and arrogant and completely irresponsible as saying all Muslims are extremist suicide bombers?

you're exposing your true self, shame on you

If you e-mail him he does promptly respond...

"What you may have read on one blog or another of a sermon I preached June 22 has been horribly misrepresented by many bloggers. I can't imagine legitimizing abuse for any reason, including however one's wife might act sinfully toward her husband. I have a cherished wife of 30 years and two precious daughters whom I love dearly. The thought of abuse happening to them or to any woman, for any reason, is hideous, dispicable, and grievously sinful. I've read at least many of these blogs and can hardly recognize my own message. If you wish, you may listen to the whole (one full hour) of this June 22 message at: http://feeds.feedburner.com/dbc_recent_sermons
You still may not agree with my positions, but I hope you would see I in no way give justification to abuse as many of these bloggers have wrongly and hurtfully claimed. And just so you know, I use my "platform" as a teacher and preacher regularly to call men to treat women with deep respect, and to live with their wives in ways that build them up and show them true Christ-like love (Eph 5:25-27) and honor (1 Pet 3:7).
Blessings in Christ,
Bruce Ware"

For every ONE person who uses religious philosophy (the very broadstrokes of "Love Thy Neighbor" etc) there seems to be 100 Bruce Wares out there.

For every Martin Luther King there seems to be 100 Rev Haggee's.

That's a pretty poor track record.

One could make the arguement that religion didn't make MLK a great man, but he was great inspite of it.

Had MLK been a Buddhist -- he would have been a great man.

Had Hagge been born in a Buddhist country -- would he still be an asshole?

I'm just saying that Christianity seems to have a very,v ery poor track record in making decent people whereas the Eastern religions seem to pump them out nonstop.

Maybe it's time to switch to a spiritual philsophy with a better track record?

I'm seriously beginning to believe that if Jesus actually knew some of the people he was crucified for he would have just said "f**k it, these buffoons are not worth it"

This scholar is not justifying abuse. He is simply giving reasons as to why some husbands resort to abuse. If you would open your eyes and actually read the article you might see that. Current is all about widening ones world views...stop jumping to such awful conclusions the second you see an article related to Christianity.

It's the morons out there like this guy that make people look down on the followers of Jesus. It's so frustrating.

If I ever felt the need to prove myself to anybody about why I don't follow any structured religion, this is a prime example. Open your eyes people.

This has nothing to do with Christianity (and I don't have a high opinion of that religion to begin with).This kind of person is the type that starts a cult and claims God told him to impregnate all the women between the ages of 14 and 22 then demands they worship him. Just another sicko.

People actually believe this?!

I agree with the idea that submitting is important. I disagree with the idea of submitting that people have that twists it into controlling.

I totally disagree that it leads to abuse...or gives cause or reason for it.

"All violence...is not power but the absence of power." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Religion is so getting a pretty beating. I am in no way going to defend a religion that agrees to state things like this publicly. Ick.

just another deluded blowhard/jackass

Where is love, if wives get so stubborn and make things in their own way in a peaceful marriage?

But, if the man in the family becomes a beast or monster, nobody can blame wives for that, but himself?

This is a true problem!

Do not confuse things. You are no different than this "preacher" talking about allowing to get beaten. You talk how a Religion is bad.

Religion is one thing, people is another. The bible talks about the Man being the head of the home, and this is a deep conversation like to have it here. It is part of your confidence and it is part of your Catholic Marriage.

The Bible talks even more strongly about violence, hurting people and even less hurting a women for a "sin".

Do Not sensationalize.

this is a damn shame.
i hate that there are still people this ignorant out there, especially since this man is in a position where he has a whole group of people looking to him for guidance.

mmmm lame.

he who has not sinned, cast the first stone...

This professor should have forbidden to talk in public because of what he said. This is just pure ignorance and discrimination against women.
So according with this "professor" if a woman doesn't obey her husband its ok for him to give her a beating and show to her who is the boss?
This sick is openly promoting home violence and the image of the women as servants of men.

That is not very christian.

Yeah, i mean this guy couldn't be misquoted or anything, i mean that's never happened to preachers before. And yes, I am a baptist, but it's retarded to think that Christians are like that in general. That's like saying all black people and liberal people vote for Obama... you can be racist, sexist, fascist, anarchist, or even atheist, I don't care. Yeah, beating your wife or "other" is wrong. No doubt. But you can't tell me when you start to think about what brings bout crap on people, it's nothing but them selves. Don't try to blame it on your mom, dad, or some other person to your therapist. Think about it, now we want to blame the man for beating the woman, yeah he did it, then why is she with him in the first place, she is to fault. I am sorry. But I do feel sorry, and I don't agree with the beating, but if you are a retard and get in the relationship, pick carefully. Don't just go, hmmm... he seems to have nice morals, or hey he hasn't cheated but twice. Wake up, this is why Divorce is high, they don't take things like that into consideration, and then they believe marriage is a beautiful fairy land which is a cure all. It just makes you closer together, if you aren't compatible, it's not going to work then either. I just hate the comparison of everyone and Christians, you can't make yourself sound better because you don't have the same morals.

All abused women should be given a gun and taught how to use it. All women who kill their abusive husbands should be aquitted. It's not illegal to put down a dog.

The Bible is a crock. How many women got to put in their 2 cents? Ron Hubbard has a big book out too, do you believe he is right. get a life christians, treat people like you want to be treated.

Well, obviously, if a church says it to be true, and a male clergy says God has given authority to man to dominate woman because he's a sinner, than let's beat up women!
Created equal? Yes, as in we were created equal, except men more equal.

Okay, I was trying to be satirical and sarcastic, but this is just fucking ridiculous, I can't even make fun of it and I just want to bomb the fucking religious scholar who made this fucking bullshit.
BTW, if anyone saw the Animal Farm reference, good for you!

My childhood babysitter was a southern baptist. I need no reminders of just how bad that religious following is to know they're all completely insane.

The title of this post is misleading. I have read books by this guy on this subject. He would be disgusted to see how you are portraying him. He was merely saying from a paradigmatic viewpoint, man being a leader in the marriage relationship, domestic abuse happens because men "abuse their power" when women do not behave the way the man wants. He was talking about a reality, not justifying any act of violence. Never would he condone such an act. The headship of a man in marriage exists along side the command for a husband to love and cherish his wife, according to Christianity. First he is slandered, then everyone picks up stones to kill him! Shame on you people!

What I don't understand is how is it that this man can say he knows what the intent behind the biblical text.
He acnowledges that the Bible says men and women are created equal and then goes on to say but that's not really what it means. How does he know what it means? Does he claim to know the mind of God?
Context is important and to take sentances out of context and say they mean something other than they do within the text from which they're taken is just wrong.

WTF! So now our world is so screwed up that we can blame the battered woman for getting beaten??!!!

What else can they justify by twisting the words of the Bible?

I recommend you all toss him an email - there is a link to him in the ethics daily article at the top.

I wonder why enrollment in the christian church is at an all time low? per capita , there are fewer people attending church services than ever before. I believe the bible to be a spiritual guide, not civil law, and for me personally, organized religion appears to be a crutch for week minded people who need the validation that comes with being accepted by the group. Myabe it is good that men like that only lead a few of the weekest minds, for if I were sitting in his congregation , and he said that shit, I'm not sure he and I wouldn't have a confrontation right then and there.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist family (my grandfather is a Southern Baptist minister), and even though I am atheist now, it still makes me sad that the only Christians who find their way into the news are extremist madmen like this obviously misguided "scholar." Don't generalize and say that all Southern Baptists are chauvinist jerks because it is not true. Chauvinism exists in every religion and every denomination.

You know that thing the sex offenders have where they have to tell everyone they live around and where they work that the have a sexual felony. Same rule should apply to people who beat their wives.

MLK was also SB. The Pope is Catholic and so was Crazy Joe Gallo. Jews include Albert Einstein and Bugsy Segal. This guy is a southern Baptist and is also a whack. Don't compare him to Doctor King. I would say he's a Southern Baptist who also happens to be extremely misguided. Private Ibber