Health crisis, not health care crisis

Health prevention? ha-funny-you say we will never get to a working health care system but you think you will be able to get fat americans off their lazy asses to prevent illness? Good luck. Besides that there are some health issues that a person cannot prevent. What are you going to do to ensure that those people are covered? Try to push a healthier society all you want, but that won't resolve the insurance complications and financial ruin some health issues cause!

to janforgore:
where in huckabee's speech do you get the idea that he would just quarantine aids patients? i love how you say huckabee is living in his own little world when you make a comment like that.

So what's your answer for those who get sick? Quarantine them away from society like you wanted to quarantine AIDS patients? You may be running for president, but your views are myopic and totally out of touch with the real world.

"And it is true, universal healthcare doesn't promote such a lifestyle, but it removes incentives for people to take additional responsibility."

That's the statement I have trouble with accepting. If universal healthcare removes the personal responsibility incentive, then why do those countries not have obesity problems? The statement's a logical fallacy, proven by real world example. I picked Norway as a real world example, but the same can be said of any of them... pick one: Japan, Iran, South Africa, Chile, France, the list goes on. Our tax money provides universal coverage in Iraq & Afghanistan.

Even if that's not what you're disagreeing with, specifically, your reasoning still isn't completely right. The point of Schwarzenegger's healthcare plan in California is that regardless of the type of system (the one we have now, or universal care) the costs of the uninsured always get subsidized by the insured, in one way or another. There are too many ways this is true, and rather than make a novel-post here, you'd just have to look up the details of it.

I know the reasoning behind Huckabee's point. He himself was overweight, and presumably didn't exercise. So he took it upon himself to diet and exercise and lost 50lbs. Congrats! (not sarcastic). For Huckabee to believe that universal healthcare takes away the personal responsibility factor, then he must admit that he too would lay around getting fatter in an environment of universal healthcare. But he would never admit that, because it's not true. He took action because he wanted to, and the state of our health care system didn't/wouldn't effect that want for action.

Oh, I would never be so naive as to connect universal health care and personal responsibility of one's health. What I meant was that we have the problem now (of things like obesity and the such), there is no question about. And it is true, universal healthcare doesn't promote such a lifestyle, but it removes incentives for people to take additional responsibility. For example, if someone understands the costs of taking poor care of one's self, they take action to avoid those costs (healthy living). If those incentives are removed, there will be a greater amount will ignore health risks (I’m not saying the whole populations or even a great part, just more). Money and costs are great motivators, people react to those motivators. Universal health care removes those motivators.

However, that isn't why I'm against universal health care, that is simply my reasoning behind Huckabee's comments. I'm against it because in imposes great costs on society--that's something Norway can't defend. Nor can such costs be measured effectively, because as I said, they are hid in the taxes and government spending.

Of course that idea has holes. The easiest way to see those holes is to look at countries that have universal healthcare, of some kind or another. For instance, Norway doesn't have an extreme obesity problem like we have in the US, but they do have universal healthcare. So you can't just chalk everything up to personal responsibility, since the deficiencies Huckabee is noting don't exist in every country that has universal health care. What I'm saying is, universal health care and personal responsibility aren't mutually exclusive. So again (not to be laborious), in Norway, they have universal healthcare, but people are also responsible in what they eat. You can say the same thing about many other countries with universal healthcare.

The false dichotomy the Republican Party is setting up between health care and personal responsibility doesn't really exist in real life. Similarly, the dichotomy they're trying to create between security and freedom doesn't exist either.

This is just proof that you should step back from theories every now and then and look at real world examples.

One extra note: I believe a central cause to the problems we have now is that the health insurance industry got too competitive. It offered too many incentives to people to get them to buy their coverage. While it is nice and appealing to the individual, it hurts society in the long run. That's why I think regulating and taking away such things will really reduce costs to everyone.

I'm sure there are holes in my idea, but it is the best I have. I am convinced the universal health care is not the answer, it really hurts society...silently. But Huckabee's idea lacks substance...and there is no good way to get people to be responsible across society. Doing nothing hurts too many people, though I am convinced the market will work it out with time better than we could, but the short term costs really are too steep. There is something we can do, and this is just the most logical...so far.

Here are a couple of things to consider. First, why are health care costs so high? Mike Huckabee shows of few of the things that are driving up costs across the board: people's short term decisions which high costs in the long term. There are other more minor things as well, such as people who run to the doctor for every little whim, and charge it to their insurance. All of the above cause very real costs on all of us. The insurance industry has to cover these costs, which they spread across to everyone. (Even those ER visits that "no one" pays for.) More than likely, this isn't new to anyone.

What I believe Mike Huckabee's point is, if we introduce universal health care, more people will feel more inclined to be more irresponsible with their personal health, which drives up costs in the industry which drives up our taxes. (No matter what system we use, we all pay for it, we only don't perceive the additional costs we incur when they are hidden in taxes.) Health care costs actually go up, and the general public will never notice it. Furthermore, the free market really does instill competition which improves it--universal health care eliminates that. We further pay for universal health care in having poorer health care.

So that's the theory at least, in the long run, we actually pay more for universal health care--we'll just never notice it. But you all are right, there are real people suffering because they don't get the health care they need. They can't be ignored.

My fix to the health care system is to regulate the current insurance industry and raise what they charge, in the short term. I know--it sounds stupid and it won't change anything, it will only make it worse. What you do is you raise things like co-pays and benefits, etc. The short term costs the individual has to pay out. This lowers premiums, or your yearly or monthly costs to buy the insurance. This does two things, first, more people are able to purchase health care because it has lower premiums. Second, people don't go rushing to the doctor for every little thing, because they can no longer afford it--which further reduces costs and makes it more affordable. Now more people have health insurance for the big things in life.

Of course, this is nothing more than an idea...because it has no chance of getting through congress.

Hey Stardate, Don't assume you know anything about me! You know that makes an a__ of you and me. I'm definitely not an arrogant person, just ask any of my friends. And I certainly don't consider myself an "average" person (whatever that means to you). You must be a Mike Huckabee fan. Are you an actor? I have actually been "dirt poor" by today's standards, have you? I have also been sick and in excruciating pain, have you? You can't feel someones pain, you can sympathize with them but you can't feel it. Or are you a career politician? If the "career politicians" know much more about the real world than average people do, why are their bad decisions making such a mess of the USA not to mention the World? I certainly know what's going on outside of my own backyard. I make it a point to be interested in everything that's going on in the world at large. So speak for yourself youngster.

"Start" How many times are we going to "Start?"
Republicans: delay, duel, dumb-up, do-nothing, dis, deny, destroy, deceive, debauch, damn, and dance around every issue that even APPEARS to hinder the rich. Dog-gone-it, Damn-it, Dab-nabbed, Darn-it, Mike you can do better!

And I'll repeat what I've said elsewhere:

I like you, Mike, why would I, a way-far-2-the-left liberal, think to like you. Why are you a Republican? Yes, I hear the subtle cues that you leave between the lines when you’re doing the right thing, and at the same time trying to hint to Republicans that you're being Liberal, but only in a way that your evil cohort Republicans might agree. But since you do this all the time, I think that you are a real Liberal in Wolf clothing. Come out the closet, or admit the scam that you're doing to evil sided Republicans. Because, not thou shall not lie, but because I hate Republicans. I like you!

@Sissygirl

"Mike Huckabee is truly a career politician and as such doesn't have a clue about what goes on in the real world"

That's the arrogance of the "average person".
Mike Huckabee like everyone else lives in the real world.
In fact he couldn't possibly live in any other world.

You don't have to be poor to know what it's like to be poor. You don't have to be sick to know what it's like to be sick. You don't have to be a criminal to know what's it's like to be a criminal.

These "career politicians" usually know much more about the real world than average people do, who usually live in a very small circle, get to know not more than a few hundred people in their entire life and never even visit most states of the union let alone know what is going on outside of their own backyard.

I'm not giving up one payer health care. Why should for profits take the healthy people skim off the enormous profit then when they get sick and start costing money kick them back to the government program? It wouldn't work. I agree with these people. http://www.pnhp.org/ Physicians for a National Health Program is a single issue organization advocating a universal, comprehensive single-payer national health program. PNHP has more than 14,000 members and chapters across the United States. Since 1987, we've advocated for reform in the U.S. health care system. A large part of our work involves educating health professionals about the benefits of a single-payer system--including fewer administrative costs and affording health insurance for the 46 million Americans who have none. ....... We endorse a fundamental change in America's health care - the creation of a comprehensive National Health Insurance (NHI) Program. Such a program - which in essence would be an expanded and improved version of Medicare - would cover every American for all necessary medical care.

I don't think it's debatable that preventative health care is important, and the fact that you're saying it now is rehashing old information. So obviously we should provide preventative care, although you didn't say that here... and I imagine you don't agree we should do that. The fact of the matter is, people can't provide for the illnesses they have now, so diverting our attention to why they have those illnesses is just that -- a diversion.

If you don't think what you're saying is empty rhetoric, then tell us... please!... What do you plan on doing about over-eating? What do you plan on doing to encourage exercise? What do you plan on doing to promote not smoking? If those are the three main ills (pun!) of our health crisis, satisfying those three questions would qualify as a plan of action for you. If you're spouting off ideals with no plans to bring about those ideals... Get your team to work on that, since we all know the answers won't come from you. Make your politics real -- give us real actions, not grandiose ideals. We have Ron Paul for that.

I understand you value personal responsibility, and that's admirable. I also understand that you don't want to pay for someone else to be healthy as a matter of principle. However, you can't say "it's impossible" for us to cover costs for health care, because national health care exists in other countries -- and their economies are better than ours by the numbers.

As a voter, what I see is Republicans that won't budge from the system we have now. I see Democrats who have given up their socialized medicine ways and are now promoting a balance between private and public care. I'm more moderate when it comes to actual voting, and I'm liking how Democrats are being practical and compromising on this issue.

Hello again spoon. This is what I thought I was referring to re Huckabee. This is regarding the Health Crisis, not health care crisis. Your reply "so he's saying we can't fix the health insurance industry until after every person in America eats right and excerises? Hmmmmmm. Do you think he does this? I repeat again, he has apparently never heard of Health Maintenance Organizations who advocate the very thing he thinks he is talking about, and they have been around for MANY years. Where has he been? Did he have his head stuck in the sand all this time?

So he's saying we can't fix the health insurance industry until after every person in America eats right and exercises? Hmmmmmm....

Is spina bifida congenital? I've been told many disabled Americans cannot get on disability, that it takes no less than two years if you do succeed, and that many people die trying. I know a Viet Nam war veteran who just committed suicide because he was refused any help for the third (and last) time.

Sissygirl1, Doesn't your daughter get SSI? You should get a Social Worker at the Welfare office to help you get that medical care going. If that fails call the governor's Ombudsman and tell him/her your problem and don't fail to tell them how much pain she is in. I think they will get you set up pretty fast. I used to live in Roseburg and I know that should get you the help you need. Good Luck.

Mike Huckabee is truly a career politician and as such doesn't have a clue about what goes on in the real world. The real world being where most of us US citizens live as opposed to life in the Congress. Who has the best health care plan in the US? I believe it is members of Congress! And who pays for this wonderful health care plan? I believe it is us taxpayers! And wouldn't it be terrific if all of us US citizens had the same health care plan as our Senators and Representatives! Mike really doesn't know what he's talking about! The HMO's are the health care plans which promote a healthy life style. We all know that! They promote preventative maintenance of our bodies. Where has he been? My 38 year old daughter has spina bifida (can hardly move because she has so much nerve damage and is in severe pain 24-7. Vicodin does not alleviate any of her pain). She has no medical insurance, and we are trying to navigate the social services system in Oregon. This seems like it is taking forever and, in the meantime, she continues to deteriorate. I don't know if Universal Health Care is the answer, but we do need, in my opinion, health care for all US citizens. How can we afford to wage a war in Iraq and antagonize Iran when we can't/won't take care of our citizens?

Current is a very open community. That means that when a minority view is posted that view must also be respected. There is a line between passion and confrontation, criticism and open insult and that line is respected here at Current. A presidential candidate posting several viewpoints is no more spamming than any other person posting thiers. Even I have crossed the line at times and have been less than constructive in my comments but rarely if ever in doing so have I engendered any support for my position. At Current that tends to do just the opposite and that is in part why this is a moderated community. I respect this debate and hope you post passionately but also that you do so considerately.

LOL

Censorship? In America? NO WAY! I don't believe it!

then i guess it just disappeared... :)

Dang I missed it! What'd you say Marilynn, lovely trouble-maker you.

jade_azul16 "maybe u were just having fun." No I didn't delete it, and it wasn't just for fun. This clown is spamming us with garbage. Not two or three posts. One right after another like buses. I really meant it. Prolly shouldn't have said it. But, it was heartfelt and not obscene.

Okay, this is a very nice smoke screen that you've put up here buddy. Look at you, pandering to both sides. Don't you know that you'll never get ANYWHERE like that? Okay, so it's true that prevention is the key to good health. But, what about cancer patients who die because they can't get the insurance company to pony up for treatment? COME ON, GIVE ME A BREAK! I'm 26 years old. Active, vegetarian, and overall, very healthy. But, I haven't been to the doctor in years. Mind you, it's not by choice. I simply can't afford it. I run a home based business, so I'm not given any coverage, and it's so expensive that I can't really afford it. How does that fit into your view of prevention? Everyone in my family who has died, has died of cancer. Think I should get regular screening? Yeah, so do I, but it's not going to happen. Even if I did have insurance, they'll do everything in their power to prevent me from getting care. WTF is that? So yes, preventative care is definitely a good thing...(DUH, the Chinese have known this for how many thousands of years?)...but more importantly, health care needs to be viewed as a necessity rather than as a premium, and as a basic human right rather than an opportunity to profit. If that's not reason enough, do the math, our country will be more productive if it's people are healthy, and our citizens will have more money to spend on CRAP, instead of fueling the insurance structure. The money will still be spent, so don't worry about that silly, and doctors will still make good money, maybe even better money! Huckabee, if you are serious about your run, you should consider voicing real views that will allow you to stand out from the crowd. You sound like such a politician! Yuck.

maybe u were just having fun...

you deleted it?

wtf! lol

lol marilyn, as much as i agree with your views, please don't turn a civilized debate into a name calling and offensive words against whatever his name is. :)
I might have done it before. But i regret it now! lol(not really but hey, i have to sound grown-up!, lol jk)

no, hehe, what i mean is that i've learned not to despise people, because people are TRULY SPECIAL to me, ( not the type of special crap he is trying to make us buy) but despise instead actions and ideas.