God vs Science

In a way, it seems crazy to me to ever think that there was "nothing."

Jezz, You are bringing me all the way back in time to tell me that? Why is that, that it has to have a duality or controversy between religion and sciences when in reality they interconnect? Many, many Religionists are Scientists and vice verse. They ones that debate the issue by making it a rivalry are usually the ones that do not understand either matter.

Religion and faith has always had this battle going on since day one. Science has been riffling through ideas, theories and myths attempting to find truth in what they can find. Religious people are probably worried that their beliefs and ideas will be questioned, as they have been, and they will be proven wrong. Religion is based on believing a book or a religious figure. Religion has done many good things for our society so I am not downsizing it by any matter. Though science has still yet to prove, or disprove the beliefs of faith and religion, they believe what has been proven as facts.

The simplest thing to say between having faith and science is that they are incompatible. Possibly the best thing for us to do would be to have a way for science and faith to ‘work together’ to reveal our Creator, and there is a method to do so.

Michael Laitman has been sharing a method to do so. He explains this method, and how to use this method on his website http://www.laitman.com/2009/01/faith-and-science-are-incompatible/ .

mankind is flawed because they were created that way by flawed gods

lifterbaron you've made some interesting points that I would like to discuss. first, you made the point about the Dark Ages and the mighty Catholic Church and all of its evils. and went on to discuss the Salem Witch Trails, bigotry against minorities, discrimination, bombing abortion clinics and so on.

These are all accurate and perfectly just points to make, but the problem is that you're blaming the wrong entity. You're blaming the religion of Christianity for the mistakes made by men.

The Catholic Church is not a truly Christian entity. We can go through the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the subjugation of natives by Conquistadors and invaders and so on. there are many examples of tragic and awful acts committed in the name of religion.

sadly, the problem is man. those people who used Christianity as an excuse to commit vile atrocities were not Christians. every last one of them were false prophets, liars, wrongdoers, and other ilk of that nature.

if those people were truly Christian they would have embraced the message of Jesus and true spirit of Christianity (and really of all religions), which is to live in harmony with your earth and environment, to not murder, to not steal, to not covet or bear false witness. a true Christian is someone who is selfless and compassionate, who does not discriminate. they love homosexuals, blacks, whites, straights, jews, muslims, and everyone else like their brother or sister. they put their entire life into serving and helping others, not to tear people down, not to mass murder and pillage and rape. yes, terrible, atrocious, nightmarish things have been done in the name of Christianity. and I can completely understand how that would drive someone away from the religion itself. but the problem is man. man ruins everything he does. mankind ruins the environment, enslaves people, invades nations, steals, lies, murders, burns people at the stake for blind paranoia. I assure you, if there was a hell, every last person who committed those terrible acts is there.

I am ashamed and outraged at the man-made institution of "religion". it is such an utter perversion of the purity of a true God's word and eternal love.

I love every individual on the planet for who they are as if they were my closest of family. I am ashamed at the Crusades, at people murdering and starting wars in the name of religion, at banning gay marriage in the name of religion, at bombing abortion clinics in the name of religion, at creating slavery in the name of religion. but we are mankind. there will always be those who find excuses to commit evils. they are the worst among us. I do not believe in the institution of religion. I do not believe the Catholic Church or any other formally organized "church" is even Christian at all.

you can disagree with me on this, but I believe God is a purity and goodness in everyone. God is the universe, God is in us, God is around us, God is love. it sounds like hippie psychobabble but I believe its true.

discrimination, bigotry, racism, war, nation-building, murder, theft, slavery, oppression, and all other evil bastardizations committed in the name of a loving God are a grave threat.

its all love, man. people such Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Teresa of Calcutta, and others have all recognized the fundamental truth of "God". at the core of religion is love, compassion, nonviolence, and the Golden Rule. all the evil people you pointed out are bullshit. they are merely hypocrites, using dogma and paranoia to commit atrocities.

as the Beatles so eloquently put it, "all you need is love".

"lifterbaron," No one here was talking about Religion. We were talking about GOD and SCIENCES, or like the post wrongfully suggests, "GOD Versus SCIENCES."

(YOU) were the one that jumped in the conversation like a chicken without a head and suggesting about your rotten philosophical Religion fish there.

"If you give them enough rope, they will hang themselves all by themselves."

YOu are talking yourself in circles.. You came back too! You dont know when to stop.. We are all talking about religion here BABY.. Why are you calling me baby.. Are you some sexual deviant. More expressively an atheist.. But whats the point. Its obvious you have nothing to say about the topic and point I gave in my last post. Did you have anything to say about what religion has given the world? Doesnt seem so.

Instead of wasting the thread with our potentially unrelated comments send me a message. I can tell you where that is if you like.

Isn't that interesting? -Some people keep going and going and sticking their own heads in the hole of their own denial and mistakes, deepening themselves in their own insanity. It is fun to watch! We do not need to help them that much. If you give them enough rope, they will hang themselves all by themselves.

Isn't that funny and interesting?

Ok, back to "little you" that wants to blame Religion for everything negative and wrong in the World just because (You) do not want to admit that (YOU) might be the one having a denial issue.

First, Who was talking about Religion?

You are the one that suggested and brought up this subject to the discussion. No one was talking about Religion here!
Since I can see you are an agnostic by your comments, I can go as far as to say that there are not a lot of things wrong with Religion if I have to compare that with your denial.

I wish I could have this conversation in the same room.. People of your caliber never seem to act as rough and tough in person. Im not sure where you are going with any of this.. Mainly because your english is so bad. BUT!

I have some history for you. Fact. Remember the "Dark Ages" Those were the 600 years or so when there was little to no development in the world, medicinally, industrially, economically. Nothing. The people "running" things at that time was the church.

Remember the Crusades? Yep more people (innocent civilians, women & children) were brutally tortured and killed during that time than in any other "conquest."

Salem Witch Trials? Sneaky ass Vatican City?

It really seems that religion has been at the root of nearly EVERY SINGLE war and conflict in history. Yup thats right. Gay vs straight, white vs black, catholic vs muslim, christian vs pagan... and so on. Its why america is at war right now.

Now, today religion is doing nothing but adding fuel to the fire. Stealing children from underdeveloped countries and reprogramming them. Telling Africans that they are evil because of their sexual morals, telling "homeless" that they can stay in the shelter if they attend mass.. or convert. Doesn't sound like it helps to me.. Some of the worse people Ive met were brought up in strict religous households. Oh lets not forget bombing abortion clinics and protesting funerals of dead soldiers and gay people. Should i go on???? You tell me..

Now really quick, Science, which you seem to have disbelief in, brought us the following things:

Septics, Medicine, Electricity, Astronomy, Geography, History, Mass transit etc.. What has religion given us again? Hope? Hahahahaha.. Of what a deity that you have to fear in order to gain it's respect? Shit.

The one thing I will give religion is this, It keeps dim people under control. And comissed some of the most memorable architecture. (generally done by non-religious people)

Religion is, with all it ups and downs one of the forms by how G-O-D manifest itself in your physical World. Remember, You are the hypocritical one, not by any means any Religion out there. Religion is not perfect but is doing more for the poor and disadvantaged in this World than the "little you," with your little mind and effort would ever be able to match that with money our your own limited energy.

Ps: By the way "lifterbaron," your previous literary foul comment is more towards "Prejudice" and Prejudice it is against the Social Laws.

Stopnoise-

Where are you from? Your English is terrible. I know exactly what this thread is about and thats why i said what i did..

"THERE IS NO SUCH A THING AS GOD VERSUS SCIENCES."

Thats funny.. Religion is a hypocritical belief system... "Faith in not having enough faith to exist on ones own" should be the slogan.. We ( a collective of intelligent, well studied rationalists) dont need any arguing about imaginary people in the sky. I could go on and on but ill leave you with a read as opposed to an argument.. Read these two books and then come back and talk, "the god delusion" and "the selfish gene" Both by Dawkins. Chu, chu baby...

There is no such a thing as Science versus GOD. God is Sciences as well. The Spirit of G-O-D goes even beyond that, it can take any form and be anywhere. Therefore, G-O-D can be at the same time male, female and anything in between. It is out there and it is in you. You just have to admit it, communicate with it, worship and adore it.
One of my favor scientists, Mr. Albert Einstein in which I admire with great respect give us many quotes in regards to that, to mentioning a few:

http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/EinsteinQuotes.ht...

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."
"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."

You can also search at Current by typing the words:
"G-O-D is a Spirit"

Im not so sure what your blathering is about.. but keep it turned down if its religious. We don't need sermon.

it's interesting that Georges Lemaitre, the man who proposed the Big Bang theory, was a priest and a physicist. he believed, as did Einstein, that they were merely explaining God's work. I don't believe that you have to choose science or religion and just toss the other out the window, that would be ignorant and foolish. they are completely and entirely separate realms of thought and do not always need to be hostile to one another.

mr gore, a politician who is off the ring, talking about enlightment

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/243

mr egeland, UN diplomat who is off the ring, talking about mediocrity and will power

http://www.ucsd.tv/search-details.asp?showID=14231

this post having more than 1600 hits, WOW
http://current.com/items/88893405_al_s_new_slide_show

This is just crazy to all who dont believe no is the time to believe.

I thought Buddhists believe that humanity are mere biological machines with no soul or spirit?

Great point Malathion. It goes along with the flow.

Books to suggest:

written by richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene" & "The God Delusion"

Also: Lao Tzu "Tao te Ching"

Read em up people.. It lets you think about stuff before mindless pricks cross comment the topic out.

we do not live in a "uni-verse" , we live in a "multi-verse" - there is no "uni-verse" - it's a myth , exactly like monotheism .

why do humans think we are so important? why do we believe that we are this great being? we are just animals. there is no devine purpose there is no evolutionary purpose, flesh and blood just like everything else. if anything we are worse then most other animals; ultimately we are a self-destructive species and we will wipe ourselves out within the next few thousand years. so it won't really matter will it?

Funny. There is no proof. There is only theory. Why are there ocean creature fossils way up in the mountains? Where are the fossils of half men half apes? Where are there ANY "transitional fossils"? They do not exist. Lucy, the closest thing to a "transitional fossil", is a monkey, but not many people heard that.

We are fighting a war with the old, insufficient, obsolete weapons of our progenitors, all of us are conditioned to a degree, because we have all been indoctrinated by the academic institutions established by our forefathers, it is time to pave the way for a new process of thought, cast away those obscure ideas that flake away when exposed to the light of truth, and yet what is truth? truth is relative, and cannot be confirmed, this we can agree upon. Maybe all the religions of the world contain fragments of the truth, and it is up to us to organize these fragments inorder to understand the ''Great Truth'' in it's totality, Remember, we were born with imaginations, people write and create stories everyday, its up to us to distinguish fact from fiction, and yet that line seems very tenuous when juxtaposed with the human imagination....

Concepts, Ideas, Philosophies, Beliefs...They have all been passed down over the ages, those present today have had their minds saturated by old Concepts, Ideas, Philosophies, Beliefs, we haven't even been given a chance to postualte for ourselves, I believe it's time for some new Concepts, Ideas, Philosophies, Beliefs, or get rid of them all together, to create a new untarnished, uncurrupted reality.....

Science today is the only true discipline that allows mankind to see the Father God for what he/she truly is; an eternal and vast number of sub atomic self aware particles that inhabit every atom and are connected by a string that exists at a level even smaller than sub atomic particles. Everything that exists was created and emerged from the thoughts of those beings that descended from this original self aware energy/substance of the universe.

The time for religious superstition and half truths and mysteries is over. The mystery is finally revealed for all to see. Father God is real but Father God doesn't tell us what to do. We have free will, all sentient and conscious beings have free will. The only way to take that freedom away from an individual conscious being is to teach them a lie and make them a slave to that lie.

Sorry to say this but people are going to believe whatever the hell they want to believe, there are a lot of stubborn people who will tell you the sky is orange when clearly you and about 10 other people can plainly see it is blue.

I have been learning something very important and yet very simple that has truly left me with my jaw on the floor.

There is a huge difference between believe in something and knowing something.

How many millions of people, they are the sheep, that are willing to not have a brain in their heads and blindly follow through faith beliefs that have no grounds in scientific understanding and knowledge. These are the people that are willing to kill or die for their beliefs. Blind faith in unprovable ideas.

Then there are the people who know things because they have a first hand personal experience of them. Their faith rises up from their knowing something first. These are the people who are not only highly critical of the world around them but they also hold out the greatest hopes for the future of mankind and humanity, because their ideas are not bound to some ideological God who is going to punish and judge the world in a great apocalypse.

All the Abrahamic descended religions are responsible for most of the bloodshed and martyrdom (evil) of this world.; and I don't care if they are economic capitalists or socialists. It is all the same because their fundamental beliefs spring from a belief in the God of Abraham and that God is Jehovah.

Now the God of Jesus Christ is not Jehovah, The God of Jesus Christ is the true God whom Jesus called Father. This fullness of the Father God is not knowable by the mind of any one being; human or spirit. Father God can only be known through personal experience and first hand knowledge. The conditions for such an experience are brought about through a collective understanding of individuals and then it barely even begins to scratch the surface of what is the essence of this ultimate Divine consciousness.

In the invisible realms of existence there are what the world have called Gods or Titans or Elohim or Archons. These are the gods or "invisible and powerful angelic like beings" who have rebelled against the Father God, because they want to have authority and rules and laws to decide their petty egoic battles with one another; establish hierarchies and jurisdictions. These gods are plentiful and one group of them, a very powerful one of them, is the one called Jehovah; who became a friend of Abraham and made a covenant with him to become their God. But this Jehovah is not a single entity but a combination of powerful entities sharing one purpose. They are Elohim which is the plural form of Eloah. These gods formed the material world that we see from the eternally existing self aware and conscious "dark matter" that was and always will be the true Father God. Only they did not create it to be free of suffering.

Three great religions of the world have emerged from this covenant of Jehovah and Abraham; Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. And these three are at the core of most of the worlds' conflicts today.

The Father God who is formless, continues to work and does so through four Divine beings; Logos (the Word), Sophia (Wisdom), Choe (Life), and Charis (Grace). Logos is the spirit that was personified as Jesus the Christ when Jesus the man presented himself to be baptized. He is the same Logos that has been personified in different parts of the world in different eras to teach humanity about the real freedom from the laws established by the Elohim (false gods).

The Logos spirit descended from Heaven like a dove and personfied the man Jesus, that is when God said, "Today I have begotten you."

humans just need to realize that we dont know shit about anything. we feel the need to explain and define this huge universe when really its too big for humans to even grasp with our tiny brains.

to seek "god's particle" in the universe is like a fish in the ocean looking for water.

how about these possibilities
a) the concept of "nothing" ("emptiness" "absence" etc) does not hold any truth. The only nothing is infinity.
b) God is infinite, he isn't omnibenevolent, omniscient, or omnipotent, God encompasses everything and everything is in him or it aka nature.

i think that what is stopping us from the truth, besides the lack of scientific evidence, is the concepts such as "nothing" and that God is a supreme being with human attributes. If he cannot be understood, it means that whatever attributes man map onto the concept of God will never suffice the reality of its being.

and this issue is very important, one we shouldn't divert our attention from, because at the very bottom of all our individual philosophies and ethics is a pre-supposed metaphysical belief. Whatever that belief maybe, there is a metaphysical belief which all other beliefs, ethics, morals, actions stem from. it may very well hold the key to the true nature of our "being"

we dont know who or what we are, just like with god.

isnt that full circle?

just a repost:

I'm not deeming the discoveries of Quantum Mechanics or Astro-Physics as being Foolish or silly, I deem the premature conclusion that a creative intelligent force doesn't exist solely based on the discovery of 1 aspect of reality as being both silly and foolish when there are many, yet to be discovered. Hypothetically speaking, the next big discovery will alter our perception of reality, and the validation of the existence of ''GOD'' due to future discoveries or the disproving is irrelevant, what is important is that we identify what we discover and catalogue these discoveries as fragments of the truth as are the multitudinous concepts of religion as opposed to establishing them as irrefutable Axioms. Theories were meant to be disproved.

ivxx said it, but its a flawed statement regardless, the closest theory to proof god proves nothing, and if god is life, then what is around us must be proof enough. (+ thargor19). which makes the whole process of proving the existence or in existence of god a moot point, which is why everyone on this post seems to be one way or the other correct with their assertions. zero, vierotchka, reetr, mobius2012, crazy awesome stuff

Well, my opinion is that any Supreme Being who is dependent on science or mankind to validate that supremacy, simply isn't supreme.

We can opine all we want, but if God is God...there is only one epistemology that can end conclusively, and that it simply because of what God says.

I believe the most sacred name of God, in many religious traditions is simply:

I am

Vierotchka-

when I asked if you saw my point, I was referring to my point as pertains to the issue of this thread? :)

i've grazed on both sides of the fence.

while this will always be an interesting debate to have,
i feel that our focus should be turned towards what is unfortunately familiar to all of us.

war.
endangered species.
pollution.
poverty...

the issue is not the existence of a creator.
the issue is our responsibility to care for creation.

Mobius...

www.myspace.com/avison67

Invalid Friend ID.
This user has either cancelled their membership, or their account has been deleted.

:(

I wanted to send you a friend request...

Mobius, my point was that I had posted this very same video on my blog last June - that is what I thought you'd find interesting. :)

Thank You Chique

I've always wondered why the question is God vs. science. These are age old questions I doubt will be proven during the human life span either way. If there is a God controlling this mind boggling universe, who are we to question how it's being done. On the other hand, if it's just a scientific phenomenon it doesn't really prove there is no God. We've discovered complexities in everything here on earth that we didn't understand years ago and we still don't understand them completely.

I've already seen the video, it's on my myspace page honey www.myspace.com/avison67 I was actually in Russia in mid June.. but do you see my point?

Mobius, I thought you might find this interesting... something I posted in my blog last June:

http://tinyurl.com/5gao54

:)

Vierotchka- I agree with you, but maybe you misconstrued my point. I'm not deeming the discoveries of Quantum Mechanics or Astro-Physics as being Foolish or silly, I deem the premature conclusion that a creative intelligent force doesn't exist solely based on the discovery of 1 aspect of reality as being both silly and foolish when there are many, yet to be discovered. Hypothetically speaking, the next big discovery will alter our perception of reality, and the validation of the existence of ''GOD'' due to future discoveries or the disproving is irrelevant, what is important is that we identify what we discover and catalogue these discoveries as fragments of the truth as are the multitudinous concepts of religion as opposed to establishing them as irrefutable Axioms. Theories were meant to be disproved.

and he titled those steps the ''8 fold path''. Siddharta can also be quoted as saying that the way is between both opposite extremes, concluding that matter and anti-matter or rather rationalism and Belief (Blind Faith) are insubstantial and not worth defending because Mara creates ''illusion'', and who are we to determine what is real and definite.

It's foolish of us to be in awe of creation and not the Creator. It's silly of us to dismiss the existence of the Creator solely because we only see the evidence of the created. I understand that Faith and rationalism cannot frolic together hand in hand, but we are blindly predetermining reality and prematurely concluding the totality of existence based on the discovery of one facet comprised in the infinitude of reality.

I wouldn't say it is either foolish or silly. It takes a leap of faith to believe something that cannot be proved or disproved. Belief is admission of ignorance - one either knows or one doesn't know, one only believes when one doesn't know. Even if something does actually exist, to believe it is to believe a lie, because without direct experience, one cannot know. Buddha himself refused to talk about God - he said that anything he might say about God can only be a lie. On the other hand, Buddha gave people techniques through which they could reach personal experience of the existence or non-existence of God. That was intellectually and spiritually honest.

Vierotchka- Thank you sweetheart, i was in a rush. I Appreciate that very much. Spasiba' :)

And here is the link to that video:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=1650365

In case you wish to go there and drop a comment, provided you're registered with Myspace. :)

Mobius2012, the video you linked to is ultra-short and has nothing to do with a Mr. Greg Braden nor the "God Code". Here is the description of the video you linked to:

Description: Can You Handle the Truth? Sunday's 1pm PST on IE's 1050-AM & Live Streaming Audio, Internet TV and Archived Podcast @ KCAARADIO . COM with your Hosts Craig & Dolphinbrain. Transmitting Live and Direct from the upper level of the Carousel Mall in San bernardino, California.

Currently looking for Sponsers if you would like to Advertise your Products or Services on our program please
email: Craig McElvany - destination2012@aol . com

????

Something extraordinary has been discovered by a Mr. Greg Braden, a former geologist. It's referred to as the ''God Code'', a genetic signature that is allegedly divine.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=1650365

I think only antagonistic atheists with the loosest understanding of science will embrace this as their ultimate trump card in their ongoing crusade against theists.

I question the whole soon proof will be found notion. That smells a bit fishy and not a little too biased and non-scientific.

God is my cousin, God is your ousin too, God is beyond you ad I and yet God is non-existant, God is........

Some thirty plus years ago, having an uncle as well as a third-cousin working in CERN, I met a great many nuclear physicists. Already then, they were saying that the only explanation for certain phenomena was God, that the Indians (from India) had described particle physics a few thousand years ago, and that someday one will find the God particle.

why does everyone concern themselves with the most stupid question, does god exist? If indeed we are capable of finding the most elementary particle, then it will be for humanity to use. It doesn't matter whether god exists or not. There is nothing to prove. We are human beings(animals) in a physical world. No matter how you put it, we will never transcend beyond what we can perceive with our senses, whether a god or a mathematical equation gave them to us. If we do find "the first particle," anything and everything that will follow will be a product of humanity, NOT of ANY god or perfect being. We constructed fairy tales for thousands and thousands of years, isn't it time to evolve?

good point jh64487

everyone made good solid points, i guess we will have to wait and see. after a year we might think differently. btw malathion, it was Anselm.

yea i have to agree with nomatic even if he/she does capitalize EVERYTHING. the fact is this is a relatively useless scientific experiment when the majority of the world, heck the majority of the US, is still uneducated superstitious sheep. Haiti just overthrew it's government, cancer rates are rising because the EPA is controlled by the chemical companies and we (the US) are a full blown corporate empire that is crushing the majority of the world, and a growing number of our own citizens, in violent poverty. WHO GIVES A DAMN ABOUT HOW THE UNIVERSE STARTED!

mmm, leave a person's religion alone unless they attempt to force it on someone else. then strike them hard if they do.

but couldnt the particle be explained as god, isnt all creation in whatever exsistence is, god?

THIS WON'T CHANGE THE THOUGHT PROCESS OF THE IGNORANT PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE IN THE THEORY OF A "GOD". THEY WILL COME UP ANOTHER LOOP HOLE THAT KEEPS REALITY OUT OF THEIR LIVES. SORRY, BUT SANTA IS MADE UP TOO.

deep thoughts

i agree with VSiskos

huh ? unless me yawning after saying " 'he' huh ? " is an argument moly , i haven't really said anything have i ? tell me if i'm wrong . and isn't it the "ontological" argument you're referring to ( the one made most famous by st. augustine in "the city of god" ) which , i think , went like " that than which none greater may be conceived must be god " - so much for "first causes" i guess . personally , i don't "leap" anywhere i can't be sure of not landing on BS ( not for me "the leap of faith " ) - i'm a freethinker BTW , and i really wouldn't be too amazed to find that a jabberwocky miracled the MULTI-verse into existence . hold up - it was st. anselm who came up with the ontological bit - i just wiki-d it - but , anyhoo , it really doesn't matter does it ?

42

why is there a need to prove GOD's existence? isnt part of the whole business of theology, the 'fact' that there are unprovables? there will always be that argument from any numbers of religious institutions.

each person creates their own GOD, universe and reality. what is the 'objectivity' (no such thing) of science gonna add to this....

(yawn is right)

I disagree I think this and the big bang theory in general is the closest thing to proof that their is a god.

Malathion, there is a slight problem with your argument. If your saying there is a cause for everything, then it goes without saying that something must have caused god, therefore, something must have been before god and something before that etc, etc. The 'cosmological argument' for the existence of god has been discredited I'm afraid.

The idea of god is too tangible and unknown, you just have to take your own stance on the matter, this will prove it no more than any other findings and people will still argue the matter for as long as we exist.

What created God? No answer.

so I guess that might define
why God is God.

I am the Alpha and the Omega....pretty hefty claim...but if you are God, you
don't have to prove yourself
to anyone...nor abide by their presuppositions, which would probably make the presupposing angry, and that anger just might express itself in things like a complete and utter denial of Your existence.

oh well, let them worry about Heidi and Spencer....their loss

and we continue to ask what is wrong with people...

the main problem is the answer to your questions of what was before lies in the Unknown territories..and to be able to understand the unknown you need to know its language .Most people fear the unknown because of the fact they know nothing about it..but if you take the time and do the research..there are many doors that open up this subject even further..why would you want to know what is beyond the universe when we are trying to understand this one ...and yes where are Heidi and spencer today?

Well, if the universe couldn't arise on it's own -- they how did God get here? What created God? If He (or It) could theortically create Itself -- that creates its own problems because the very act of self-creation pre-supposes both a) consciouness with which to decide to take action and b) some kind of matter or energy with which to start from. You can't really ever get to true zero. There always has to be something there to begin with, right?

The great equalizer of science and religion seems to be "What happened before the beginning of everything?" Answers to both the creation of the universe to the creation of God seems equally impossible. Both depend on "something" arising out of "nothing."

But more imporantly....what's happening with Heidi and Spencer on "The Hills"???

I also agree with Malathion's comment on the common genderization of God. Isn't God a supreme being, meaning beyond human/animalistic gender? If not, who's to say (beside extremely patriarchal religious writings) that God is male? Why not female? Or androgynous?

It's something to think about. :)

The question is, where did the particle's reaction come from? If you keep thinking backwards there is a cause to everything. What is beyond the universe? How does everything happen so perfectly within it? There's too much organization and purpose for a higher being to be absent from it all.

Just because it isn't in line with the literal "7 day" tale in the Christian Bible, doesn't mean there isn't God, Yahweh, Allah, or any other higher being behind it.

" he" huh ? ( yawn )

not neccessarily..there are many particles that need to be found ..one thing for sure though..you don't see electricity until you switch on that light bulb do you..something from nothing?The unseen we don't believe in..the light bulb..the seen?