Green | July 26, 2008 | 21 comments

Hydrogen Fuels Destroy Earth?

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Psychedelic
Combustion Engines are a problem. Even hydrogen ones. Hydrogen is being touted as the new oil, but I have some questions:

Where Does Hydrogen Come from?



Hydrogen comes from water or from fossil fuels.
* Electrolysis of water - Using electricity, it is easy to split water molecules to create pure hydrogen and oxygen. One big advantage of this process is that you can do it anywhere. For example, you could have a box in your garage producing hydrogen from tap water, and you could fuel your car with that hydrogen.

* Reforming fossil fuels - Oil and natural gas contain hydrocarbons -- molecules consisting of hydrogen and carbon. Using a device called a fuel processor or a reformer, you can split the hydrogen off the carbon in a hydrocarbon relatively easily and then use the hydrogen. You discard the leftover carbon to the atmosphere as carbon dioxide.

What happens when we use up all of our water?

Has anyone posed that question?

We're searching all over the Universe for signs of water.

So what's our brilliant new plan for energy so we can drive and heat our homes?

Lets use up the source of life........ water...... ?

And there's an problem with the math when it comes to electricity to produce the hydrogen.

Where will the electricity for the electrolysis of water come from?

Right now, about 68 percent of the electricity produced in the United States comes from coal or natural gas. All of that generating capacity will have to be replaced by renewable sources in the hydrogen economy. In addition, all of the fossil fuel energy now used for transportation (in cars, trucks, trains, boats, planes) will have to convert to hydrogen, and that hydrogen will be created with electricity, as well. In other words, the electrical generating capacity in the country will have to double in order to take on the demands of transportation, and then it will all have to convert from fossil fuels to renewable sources. At that point, and only at that point, will the flow of carbon into the atmosphere stop.


In the United States, about 20 percent of the power currently comes from nuclear and 7 percent comes from hydroelectric. Solar, wind, geothermal and other sources generate only 5 percent of the power -- hardly enough to matter.

We recall that hydrogen combustion does resolve the environmental problems of fossil fuels due to excessive emission of carcinogenic substances and carbon dioxide. However, hydrogen combustion implies the permanent removal from our atmosphere of directly usable oxygen, a serious environmental problem called oxygen depletion, since the combustion turns oxygen into water whose separation to restore the original oxygen is prohibitive due to cost. We then show that a conceivable global use of hydrogen in complete replacement of fossil fuels would imply the permanent removal from our atmosphere of 2.8875x107 metric tons O2/day. Fuel cells are briefly discussed to point out similarly serious environmental problems, again, for large uses. International Hydrogen Energy Forum 2000, Munich, Germany, September 11-15, 2000 http://www.citebase.org/fulltext?format=application%2Fpdf&identifier=oai%3Aa...

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21 comments // Hydrogen Fuels Destroy Earth?

  • Varex_Sythe
    • 0
      Varex_Sythe  
    • Wow... let's look at some of those questions in the original post...

      "What happens when we use up all of our water?"

      You don't. You use electrolysis to break apart the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. When you store the Hydrogen and then use it to fuel a generator or engine, what do you think it mixes with? Hydrogen fuel primarily mixes with Oxygen to form... WATER!

      "Has anyone posed that question?"

      Probably nobody with an understanding of chemistry and the mechanics of hydrogen fuel cells.

      "So what's our brilliant new plan for energy so we can drive and heat our homes?

      Lets use up the source of life........ water...... ?"

      There are numerous plans to use new energies so we can drive vehicles and heat our homes. Hydrogen fuel cells and fuel cell stations are being experimented with in Greenland where they have just one primary highway.

      And let's use the source of life... water? The people who wrote these questions don't know much about biology do they? Plants use photosynthesis to break apart water to release oxygen and form hydrocarbon chains. A simple form of these chains are sugars. When animals eat these hydrocarbon chains, some of the hydrogen is used in combination with the oxygen that animals breathe in to fuel cells. The two most common products of this biological function is Carbondioxide and water.

      "Where will the electricity for the electrolysis of water come from?"

      As pointed out, most of the electricity we use in the States comes from burning fossil fuels. However, the example of Hydrogen fuel cell stations in Greenland that I gave run off of solar power on sunny days, and put the excess energy back into the grid. Only on cloudy days do the fuel stations actually run off of the standard electrical grid.

      Also, our dependence upon fossil fuels to supply electricity is obscene. We have hundreds of towns and cities within the Southern States that could place solar panels upon the roofs of homes and buildings. How much electricity would be produced if every house and business in Texas, Southern California, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. had a few solar panels on the roof?

      No offense meant, but whoever wrote that article really does not know jack shit about chemistry or the concept of Hydrogen fuel cell technology, or any Hydrogen fuel technology.

    • 3 years ago
  • taintedview
  • scabbio
    • 0
      scabbio  
    • Varex_Sythe:

      indeed. what i like about hydrogen that it's versatile. bmw has a hydrogen combustion engine.. honda has their fuel cell.. i think as an energy transfer system, hydrogen has great potential.

    • 3 years ago
  • edbr
    • 0
      edbr  
    • Varex_Sythe:

      i've always been a proponent of federal subsidization for home solar panels. i wonder, seriously, how many it would take to replace the generation plants. my hypothesis is that we wouldn't even need all homes and businesses to do it.

      the subsidies could come from taxes on non-renewable energy sources, that way everyone will eventually get the panels.

      and like you said, throw electrolysis in and fill your own hydrogen bottles for your car. this would be very easy and 100% renewable.

    • 3 years ago
  • taintedview
  • CarlosIsDown
    • 0
      CarlosIsDown  
    • yup. . . that's what I said. Water. . . from exaust.

      And isn't a nuclear power plant just a glorified water turbine? Using tons of water? 'nother thing i said in my earlier post. . . .

    • 3 years ago
  • stone246
  • stone246
    • 0
      stone246  
    • I have a theory that any and all forms of alternative energy that will be proposed will have similar stories like these pointing out its negatives. hydrogen energy is still in its infancy stage and the whole notion of depleting water resources and depleting oxygen from using hydrogen energy may have been true in the beginning when hydrogen energy was being proposed as an alternative source of energy but not so now. electrolysis ( extracting hydrogen from water) is very expensive and unrealistic at this moment for it to be commercially produced so you might want to count that out.. now hydrogen energy is produced from fossil fuel ( this is far cheaper than anything else proposed and is the most common source of hydrogen at the moment) i know its controversial but if you used fossil fuel to make energy and take out all the other sources that use fossil fuel energy you will dramatically reduce green house gases. other sources of hydrogen include the use of waste water , making hydrogen in the lab , using fusion energy to create hydrogen. harvest space "rocks" that contain tones of hydrogen in them as a source of energy. and many more cool ways that do not use water and or oxygen on earth. so the whole notion of hydrogen depleting water resources and oxygen depletion may have been true when hydrogen energy was first proposed but now the different things that they are coming out with are remarkable and cost efficient. for more information check out mit research on alternative energy.

    • 3 years ago
  • geneonlbk
    • 0
      geneonlbk  
    • In a perfect hydrogen based system, water would first be converted into HHO, then create electricity via a fuel cell with the byproducts being water and some heat.

      There is no perfect system.And though there are numerous working systems that separate water into HHO without any external energy input, there would at best be a 2 to 3% leakage factor and that would lead to eventual loss of water on earth because hydrogen escapes the earth's gravitational field and dissipates into outer space.

      Hydrogen will only be a stopgap energy source until fusion energy become practical.

      Using hydrogen as part of a renewable energy program will have little effect on the amount of water on earth since fusion power should be available within two decades.

    • 3 years ago
  • geneonlbk
    • 0
      geneonlbk  
    • How you gonna make them return to the farm after they've seen Pari?

      I believe that Americans would rather drive the earth into ecosystem collapse before they will get out of their cars and use mass transit.

      The real solution of course is rapid voluntary population reduction (one child) before we do it involuntarily.

    • 3 years ago
  • Ragan
    • 0
      Ragan  
    • We do not need storage batteries for storing energy. After hydrogen is seperated due to electrolysis, any hydrogen left over can be stored in tanks for reserve or later use. The hydrogen era is here bnut the Oil cartels and oil people will never change. Hydrogen is clean and free. It is abundant throughout the universe so there will never be a lack of it.It will be up to the people to make the switch, not the politics.
      Rather than storage batteries stored hydrogen and hydrogen Fuel cells would be a much better alternative.

    • 3 years ago
  • edbr
    • 0
      edbr  
    • Ragan:

      the most unfortunate drawback is the inefficiency of electrolysis. are you suggesting hydrogen + solar/wind/etc renewables? that i can work with.

      i really like the idea of using hydrogen cells for energy storage. not that i'm opposed at all, but we also need to think about the dangers. there must be innovation to lessen damages from accidents involving hydrogen cells. i sure don't want some dumbass to blow one up near me!

    • 3 years ago
  • edbr
    • 0
      edbr  
    • i truly believe solar, wind, electric is the way to go. what we need to do is focus on storage (batteries) and transmission of electricity, and we'll have a very efficient, completely renewable energy market.

      the reason these ideas haven't already been realized is that solar energy is 'free' and accessible. it can't be banned/regulated like marijuana/hemp, also another viable alternative fuel, despite emissions.

    • 3 years ago
  • Ragan
    • 0
      Ragan  
    • It has been estimated that when the Ice melts on the Northern continents and greenland and the Anarctica, the oceans may rise many feet and some estimates reach 200 feet. Even if the oceans bays and harbors rise 10 or 20 feet their will always be sufficient water for the extraction of hydrogen and the populous and as reported when hydrogen is used for fuel the exhaust output is clean water. So your engine is clean because there is no carbon or sludge buildup. So whats to worry about. Your engine oil will last much longer simply because there is no carbon buildup. Also new solar panels have been discovered that will soon bring the cost down to a fraction of the present unless the government inflated the prices.

    • 3 years ago
  • CarlosIsDown
  • greggyg
  • CarlosIsDown
    • 0
      CarlosIsDown  
    • The hydrogen bit in the second part. I assume that a water shortage was your concern.

      Nuclear plants actually use tons upon tons of water. Those big cooling towers are releasing water vapor that we won't get back as water in maybe 11-100years. Coal power (our main source of power as your graph indicated) probably dirties our air and the clouds in the sky that do have water.

      So hopefully we get more efficient wind turbines and solar pannels so we can use that electricity for electrolosis.

      *edit* and cheaper turbines/solar pannels too, so we can all cost-effectivley outfit our homes with them.

    • 3 years ago
  • CarlosIsDown
    • 0
      CarlosIsDown  
    • Well, about 75% of earths surface is covered in water, but most of it is salt. Also, hydrogen cars (instead of emmiting toxic smog) emit water.

      The whole deal with electrolysis is new for me so i'm not sure what amount of electricity is used.

      The bit about hydrogen starts after 9 minutes (sorry, i couldn't find just a clip) but the whole show is informative.

    • 3 years ago
  • Psychedelic
    • 0
      Psychedelic  
    • CarlosIsDown:

      We recall that hydrogen combustion does resolve the environmental problems of fossil fuels due to excessive emission of carcinogenic substances and carbon dioxide. However, hydrogen combustion implies the permanent removal from our atmosphere of directly usable oxygen, a serious environmental problem called oxygen depletion, since the combustion turns oxygen into water whose separation to restore the original oxygen is prohibitive due to cost. We then show that a conceivable global use of hydrogen in complete replacement of fossil fuels would imply the permanent removal from our atmosphere of 2.8875x107 metric tons O2/day. Fuel cells are briefly discussed to point out similarly serious environmental problems, again, for large uses. We propose the possibility of resolving these problems by upgrading hydrogen to the new combustible fuel called magnegasTM, whose chemical structure is composed by the new chemical species of magnecules, whose energy content and other features are beyond the descriptive capacities of quantum chemistry. In fact, magnegas contains up to 50% hydrogen, while having combustion exhaust with: 1) a positive oxygen balance (releasing more oxygen in the exhaust than that used in the combustion); 2) no appreciable carcinogenic or toxic substances; 3) considerably reduced carbon dioxide as compared to fossil fuels; 4) considerably reduced nitrogen oxides; and 5) general reduction of pollutants in the exhaust up to 96% of current EPA standards.
      Comment: 15 pages, 1 eps-figure. Contributed paper, International Hydrogen Energy Forum 2000, Munich, Germany, September 11-15, 2000

    • 3 years ago
  • Psychedelic
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