Green | August 24, 2008 | 20 comments

Age of Shroud of Turin disputed again

source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article4596856.ece

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A leading expert on the Shroud of Turin has won the support of an Oxford University laboratory for new carbon dating tests on the venerated but controversial relic, which was dismissed two decades ago as a fake.

Carbon dating tests carried out in 1988 indicated that the shroud, long revered as the winding-sheet in which the body of Jesus was wrapped for burial and bearing his imprint, had been made between 1260 and 1390.

The Catholic church admitted at the time that the shroud could not be authentic.

John Jackson, a physicist at Colorado University and a prominent expert on the relic, has argued that the tests were skewed by 1,300 years because of high levels of carbon monoxide. He said many other elements of the shroud, including details of the image, indicate that it is much more ancient.
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20 comments // Age of Shroud of Turin disputed again

  • bito76
    • 0
      bito76  

    • If this is the image of Jacques de Molay, what about the wound in the area of the chest, which matches the description of the piercing wound inflicted on Jesus shortly after His death. Has Jacques de Molay been pierced in his side like Jesus..? I completely doubt.

      Second, Jacques de Molay has been wrapped in the linen for 30 hours to allow recovery after being nailed to a wooden door.. How is he supposed to breath through a linen covering his face for 30 hours..? while comatosed and completely tortured..? He would die from suffocation and lack of oxygen, unless the linen is not tight around his body and face, and in this case the image could not be formed in such a precision and accuracy..

      I truely believe that this is NOT a Jacques de Molay immage, but rather a Jesus Christ one.

      Rafik

    • 3 years ago
  • SonofLiberty1
    • 0
      SonofLiberty1  

    • How about this:

      If it isn't real why isn't there another one?

      Very interesting that it should show, in detail, the image and the wounds that Christ had.

      Also interesting that many folks like to diss it but hardly know anything about it.

      There's a little more here than meets the eye...

      Bacteria produce a bio plastic that messes up testing.

      Of course, some don't believe.

      Fine, that's your decision not mine.

      But don't decide for everyone else either.

    • 3 years ago
  • Joe_Leo
    • 0
      Joe_Leo  
    • SonofLiberty1:

      "If it isn't real why isn't there another one? "
      What?! Since when do fakes only come in pairs?

      And how do YOU know those are the wounds Christ had?

      I personally couldnt care less if God, the virgin mary, mohammed, buddah and who ever else you follow had their juices on it. It still means complete fanny adams.
      Can it do anything? No.
      Does it smell? Probably.
      If it healed people and made babies and told us secret recipes, then i might start listening to people dig on about it.

    • 3 years ago
  • AntiFacistCanuck
  • puffpoet
    • 0
      puffpoet  

    • "....politicians have sold the people many fairytales and falsehoods, and people still believe in them"

      Well-put Ragan! The war against Cannabis/Hemp/Marijuana pushes a similar con to that of the Shroud of Turin, except that, in this case, "The Emperor Wears No Clothes"*, not even a shroud to hide behind.
      *This happens to be the name of a gob-smacking book written by Jack Herer, which reveals everything about the Hemp plant, and the REAL reasons why it is prohibited.

      If anyone doesn't know what these are, they really should take a look at Jack's book.
      It can be read online at: www.jackherer.com

    • 3 years ago
  • saverio
    • 0
      saverio  

    • Whether to believe that the shroud is authentic or not is a question of faith. Of course scientists disprove it!

      Scientific reasoning and religion are antithetical by definition, and trying to apply one to the other is a massive waste time.

    • 3 years ago
  • Ragan
    • 0
      Ragan  

    • These religious freaks will not be satisfied until someone tells them that it is Jesus Christ. I keep reading about these wierdos finding images of Christ and the Virgin Mary on everything from cheese to trees and hotcakes. How is it possible for someone to recognize these religious figures in spite of the fact no photos or icons exist from that period in time. In fact we can never be certain they ever existed except in story books. The Bible and all religious material are written by people and people are the worlds biggest liars and connivers. Like Hollywood the land of fiction anything can be sold to the people with a good public relations program. And when we get this far politicians have sold the people many fairytalles and falsehoods and people still believe in them Even today criminals can become rich and famous.

    • 3 years ago
  • kaffegeek
  • mischabarrett
    • 0
      mischabarrett  
    • Image
    • Ragan:

      Almost all scholars and historians of Biblical culture agree that a man named 'Jesus' existed at the time he is said to have lived; probably a Jewish teacher from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion.

      This Wiki article is quite useful if you're interested in the historicity of Jesus, as opposed to theological myths.

    • 3 years ago
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  
    • Ragan:

      mishabarrett - that simply is not the case. There are no contemporary writings or historical records of the existence of Jesus Christ - and the Romans systematically wrote and recorded in detail all the happenings in their colonies, so if someone like Christ had really lived and had the impact ascribed to him, it would have figured quite prominently in Roman records, yet there is not a single reference to him. That a messianic religion arose among some of the Jews at the time of the Roman conquest and the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans is understandable - there were many wannabe messiahs at the time, and Christ seems to be a kind of amalgam of all the known ones of which there are contemporary records.

    • 3 years ago
  • boobo
    • 0
      boobo  
    • Ragan:

      The image of Jesus on the Shroud cannot be compared to cheese trees and hotcakes. If you are going to pass comment on the Shroud then approach it with an open mind. Jesus was a historical figure - as was Pontius Pilate, King Herod, Nebuchudnezzar and a host of other biblical figures. To say he was not historical is to dismiss every personality in the bible. Whether you believe the bible is the word of God or not, to dismiss it as at least a semi historcial document is folly.

      When Jesus died, he was wrapped in a shroud as was custom. It is possible that it has been passed down through the ages. The shroud has been scientifically examined for over 100 years, by Catholics, Jews, atheists, agnostics and alot in between. It is the most examined piece of cloth in history. And here on this website, we have numerous experts who dismiss its authenticity out of hand. But the scientist who have examined the shroud, believers and non-believers alike, overwhelmingly believe that it is the image of a 1st century Jew who was crucified. The carbon dating tests have been acknowledged, even by those who carried out the tests, as flawed. Refer quotes below:

      There is a lot of other evidence that suggests to many that the shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow, and so further research is certainly needed. Only by doing this will people be able to arrive at a coherent history of the shroud which takes into account and explains all of the available scientific and historical information. –Christopher Ramsey, head of the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit which participated in the 1988 Carbon 14 Dating of the Shroud. (Mar 2008)

      [T]he [1988 carbon 14] age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case. –Robert Villarreal, Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) chemist who headed a team of nine scientists at LANL who examined material from the carbon 14 sampling region. (Aug 2008)

      The Shroud is not an article of faith in the Catholic church. Science will one day prove whether it is authentic or not - that has not yet happened. For me, a Catholic, if it is a 14th century work of art, so be it. The Shroud is in no way central to my faith nor is my faith dependent on its authenticity. What is important is the truth, and that is not to be found on this website.

      There is an abundance of research available for anyone who is interested and is willing to set their prejudices aside and educate themselves about the shroud.

    • 3 years ago
  • kaffegeek
    • 0
      kaffegeek  

    • how about this.

      when king philip of france arrested the templars in order to steal thier money, he used an excuse, the excuse was heresy. the leader of the templars was a man named demolay. Demolay was tortured, and interrogated for quite some time, one of his tortures was being nailed to the door of the cell and a crown of thorns placed on his head, when he collapsed and went into a coma he was wrapped in a cloth. this was to "insult" the templars who believed that jesus and the magdalen had children and demolay was a descendant " merovingian. ANYWAY when a person is tortured the sweat contains a great amount of lactic acid, which soaked into the cloth along with blood and sweat. demolay was not dead only unconsious.

      later descendants of the family, the savoys, had a fire, the shoroud got hot , what happends when you heat lactose, such as writing on paper with milk ? it turns brown.

      the image on the shroud is- Jacques de Molay the last grand master of the templars.

      the time frame and the image of a european man fits.

    • 3 years ago
  • Vierotchka
  • mischabarrett
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  
    • kaffegeek:

      Then he was "wrapped" while standing up. Anyway, the picture is not representative of what would occur if the man was lying down and the cloth lying over the body, for the reasons I explained in my first post above.

    • 3 years ago
  • bito76
    • 0
      bito76  
    • kaffegeek:

      If this is the image of Jacques de Molay, what about the wound in the area of the chest, which matches the description of the piercing wound inflicted on Jesus shortly after His death. Has Jacques de Molay been pierced in his side like Jesus..? I completely doubt.

      Second, Jacques de Molay has been wrapped in the linen for 30 hours to allow recovery after being nailed to a wooden door.. How is he supposed to breath through a linen covering his face for 30 hours..? while comatosed and completely tortured..? He would die from sufocation and lack of oxygen..

      I truely believe that this is NOT a Jacques de Molay immage, but Rather a Jesus Christ one.

      Rafik

    • 3 years ago
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  

    • Several points. A corpes doesn't bleed, and by the time Christ was taken down from the cross, the blood from his wounds would have dried up, therefore not leaving traces on the shroud.

      Also, if you place a shroud, or a sheet, over a person, it would touch the whole cheeks and the sides of the arms and legs, so were you to cover a person with paint and then place a sheet or shroud on them, the paint would not leave a perfect portrait on the sheet, it would leave what would look like very wide cheeks and very wide and thick arms and legs.

      Furthermore, when lying down, long hair does not stay in the same position as when a person is standing up - it would fall back from the face and spread a bit. The hair in the Turin shroud is the way it would look if the person was standing up, not as it would if that person was lying down.

      Hence, the shroud is not authentic.

    • 3 years ago
  • purplefox
    • 0
      purplefox  
    • Vierotchka:

      I'm skeptical about the authenticity of the shroud as a print of Christ, though I think such a phenomena as the image of a body being imprinted is not impossible, since I think theories suggest that it could be more a sort of photographic thing - a reaction of chemicals in the material and possibly bodily juices/gasses to light, that created the image, thus a clear image such as on the Turin shroud is not impossible.

    • 3 years ago
  • isnamthere
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