Obama to declare CO2 a dangerous pollutant

Angie1234p,

Is enough ever enough? If in the last 8 years you haven't seen ample reasons for a massive shift in a mentality which at its best is fossilized and retrograde, in society, in ethics, in science, in law - you are never getting off the fence.

On this page you always add one more objection, stipulation. as doubtless you did while the Bush gang was tanking the economy and promoting new and impossibly expensive wars.

While Senator McCain, who you fail to mention, busies himself with smears and avoids any mention of his own record of failure and deceit, you ignore both and concern yourself with -

"..Obama's platform as a whole. There are a lot of proposed changes that are badly needed. I'm sure he has other plans to benefit the US that he has yet to reveal. I am simply curious about the idea that he plans to change everything at once."

I think your viewpoint's disadvantage is that you are unable to TRUST better, more honest, more able, and smarter people - under any circumstances.

Wetdog,

No one is arguing that we SHOULDN'T "be making biofuels from plant biomass that removes carbon from the atmosphere and uses photosynthesis to store the solar energy as chemical bonds. THAT IS recycling."

Anything that moves us off-grid permanently should be explored.

But the argument that excess CARBON [monoxide, dioxide, all the toxic additives that spew from your exhaust pipe, and so on] is OK [and what's the big deal?] - is absurd.

Worse all this fossil fuel mania for cars already is unnecessary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_car

“Tata Motors signed an agreement with MDI to continue research on air powered motors and cars. The time line for bringing their compressed air car, the Tata OneCAT, to market has been said to be in 2008 or 2009. Other companies are also working on air cars.”

MDI, in France, and Tata Motors, in India, has already built and demonstrated the Air Car. It isn't as pretty as one from California's Magnetic Air Cars but...

The original French design was the handiwork of designer, Guy Negre, who specialized in Formula One machines. Its exhaust is air.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7243247.stm

“Mr Negre has been promising for more than a decade to be on the verge of a breakthrough.
The compressed air is stored in carbon-fibre tanks

Tata is the only big firm he'll license to sell the car - and they are limited to India. For the rest of the world he hopes to persuade hundreds of investors to set up their own factories, making the car from 80% locally-sourced materials.

"This will be a major saving in total emissions," he says.

"Imagine we will be able to save all those components travelling the world and all those transporters."

He wants each local factory to sell its own cars to cut out the middle man and he aims for 1% of global sales - about 680,000 per year.”

Cost for this vehicle is roughly $6000.

For a more expensive home grown version please visit

http://current.com/items/89421710_the_car_that_runs_on_air_and_magnets

----------" Besides all of these changes will require a significant investment. If you tell mr. American oil baron that he is no longer allowed to produce oil and needs to move over to eco-friendly sources, he isn't going to be too happy."-------------

The oil barron's have been MORE than happy to sell YOU oil at the highest price they can sustain--AND run up the highest profits ever recorded by any companies for all time.

Most companies that produce biofuels are penny stocks right now. You can buy a thousand shares for a couple of hundred dollars or less. If millions of people were to buy stock in these companies---we will be producing biofuels very quickly. Biofuels will replace petroleum because they are non-polluting, cheaper to produce, and can for the most part replace oil directly with no modification(as biodiesel can)--or with minimal modification to present autos. Any car can use up to 30% ethanol with no changes, Flex Fuel vehicles can use up to 85%. When small investors buy shares in biofuel production companies---they will be producing a product that will be non-greenhouse, and will take the huge profits from oil, and put them directly in their pockets.

There is no need for "further research"---and no need to wait and moan about government or anyone else "won't do anything". It is time for people who want things to change to MAKE things change. It is time to put your money where your mouth is. If you want to get rid of fossil fuel oil and coal----then buy stocks in companies that will do JUST that, biofuel coompanies. Buying stock will give them the capital needed to build the production plants and get the product to market. The market is here already---any internal combustion engine can run better than petroleum on biofuels. The only reason switching over should take a long time is if WE drag our feet and do nothing.

How to get rid of coal as an energy source:

http://groups.msn.com/BreakingTheChains/general.msnw?action=get_message&mvie...

I agree whole heartedly that it is a great idea. I'm only saying that it is going to take time to implement. It will take time to build all of the necessary buildings in order to produce enough to supply the entire country. They are building a biofuel plant here. They are also going to put in a system here that creates fuel from garbage. I believe it will take them 3-5 years to complete. I don't remember off hand what the costs of those two plants are, just that it is a significant investment. It will take time to have enough saltwater algae production to handle the current need.

Switching over needs to be done gradually. If the US were to suddenly stop buying oil from other countries tomorrow, there would be a lot of unhappy people. Those that are in the oil and gas industry now should be made to switch over to bio diesel and other alternative fuel. It just isn't going to happen overnight. Besides all of these changes will require a significant investment. If you tell mr. American oil baron that he is no longer allowed to produce oil and needs to move over to eco-friendly sources, he isn't going to be too happy.

I am not arguing that things have to change. His platform is exactly what the US and the world needs. I'm just saying it will take time and I don't expect it all to happen right away.

btw, I was referring to Obama's platform as a whole. There are a lot of proposed changes that are badly needed. I'm sure he has other plans to benefit the US that he has yet to reveal. I am simply curious about the idea that he plans to change everything at once.

-------"I only get partial information, but I only wonder about the financial end of it all. With the economy being so poor, I would be concerned about overspending to the point that the US can no longer function. I have no idea what the costs of all these new things will cost and have no idea what the US' financial are. "---------

Biodiesel fuel can be made from saltwater algae---it can be easily produced anywere.

Ethanol can be made from plant cellulose and other plant matter that can be grown anywhere.

Producing biofuels would make jobs for workers here in the US. People with jobs have money to spend on things they need. Homes, cars, clothing, food and everything else that people need and want. Each job we create here in the US making biofuels is another small "economic stimulus package".

Biofuels are already being used to reduce pollution. Biofuels have been around over 100 years and can do anything that petroleum can do.

We can pay for making biofuels by NOT sending our money overseas to two bit kings and dictators and terrorists to buy oil.

We are getting a break right now because the price of oil has gone down. Just HOW long do you think OPEC and corporate robber barrons are going to let you be able to buy gas without sucking you dry?

My guess is NOT LONG---we need to be ramping up biofuels production now while we have the opportunity.

I only get partial information, but I only wonder about the financial end of it all. With the economy being so poor, I would be concerned about overspending to the point that the US can no longer function. I have no idea what the costs of all these new things will cost and have no idea what the US' financial are. All I know is that in this country, when we are promised something it costs something somewhere. Sometimes its a great trade off and sometimes not so much.

If I were to vote today, I would definitely vote for Obama. I think the US is in need of a change. I'm just interested to see how all of it goes through. Since I'm not American, what I say doesn't matter since I can't get him elected or support him through actions in his endeavor. I am simply learning as I go and observing.

When I said that there is no way he can do it all in one term, I simply meant that he is human. His opposition certainly won't make it easy for him or make any fast changes. I admire Obama a lot and would give my right arm to have the chance to sit down and talk with him. He is a very intelligent person and has a view of his country that is unlike anything I've ever witnessed before.

Not saying it can't be done, just really openly wondering how. I look forward to his term in office. I think it would be a great experience for us all.

angie1234p writes of Senator Obama's first term objectives,

"there is no way he can do all that in one term."

Yes there is. That's where you come in. Public support and public pressure.

Your second comment,

"Making all of the changes he proposes in such a short time frame could be deadly for the country."

Deadly? For the country?

As in "How?" What do you consider this terrible risk to be?

Pls advise.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a pro-McCain supporter, but as an outsider looking in, I have to say that Obama has a wealth of great ideas. What scares me is that it is an awefull lot of promises with very little to ensure they will come to light

Not his fault, but there is no way he can do all that in one term. Making all of the changes he proposes in such a short time frame could be deadly for the country.

All that aside, I say if it gets something done about it go for it. We don't have time for more good stories...we need action!

this law would have to be worded perfectly since CO2 is a naturally occuring molecule....... Woulod be a step in the right direction though.

Thank you Wetdog,

A perfect recapitualtion of the earlier observation that instead of action across a broad spectrum of known and understood pollution proiblems emphasis instead should be directed "to focus on a carbon stalemate (while doing nothing) at the expense of doing nothing about all other pollutants."

Wetdog, thanks again for rendering gas fumes so economically useful and benign.

I suggest a thought experiment - stick talipipe exhaust into sinus cavity. Yours. Start internal combustion engine. Yours.

Recycle.

Have any of you looked into for instance; Carlyle Group's zillion business'? Look up their website and get an idea about their enormous investments in fossil-fuels and other earth raping investment intentions... Our only hope is to have a serious carbon tax, and it had better stick to these huge oilmongering monopolies! They have no intention of changing their profit margin paths for many years to come... and other major polluters need to be hit in their deep pockets as well!

For the upteen millionth time---CARBON is NOT a pollutant. It is a natural part of the atmosphere that all plants need to live and capture the sun's energy by photosynthesis. Without CO2 in the atmosphere, life on earth would be impossible for ALL life!

WHERE the carbon COMES from is what is causing the pollution. Dig it up or pump it out of the ground---it is pollution. Carbon produced by burning plant matter, biomass or biofuels is NOT pollution---it is recycleing.

We have lost in this battle. Gobama.

What amazes me is the effort to create a political sideshow around carbon capture. Am I against carbon capture? Not at all. Were it up to me we'd go cold turkey ASAP on fossil fuels and pump billions into off-grid.

But where has the anti-pollution coalition gone?

We're going to get tough on carbon (some day) but pesticides in food, fertilizers in drinking water, pharmaceuticals in ocean living fish, and so forth?

No hurry. That can wait. Limited public attention span. Mustn't overload the dears. Gotta argue carbon.

What seems to have been carefully obscured are the thousands of other POLLUTANTS, chemical and electronic, which continue to compromise all life on the planet.

There is simply no coherence in one side pretending carbon is the Big Issue, while the other claims you have to be a terrorist to believe such things - unless the framing is to focus on a carbon stalemate (while doing nothing) at the expense of doing nothing about all other pollutants.

How will this change? Purges at EPA, FDA, and so on.

None of which will ever happen with a McCain Government.

We need a carbon FREEZE now not more time for agencies and corporations to make money off this crisis. And if he doesn't win what is he going to do? Just ignore it? Why is his being elected the prerequisite to doing something? If he continues to tout "clean coal" and the 80% by 2050 emissions cut line it won't matter anyway. Clean coal is an oxymoron and a false choice. And supporting a carbon tax instead of cap and trade is really the way to go. Why he doesn't support that only makes me think he will do this just to jumpstart cap and trade to make corporations money.

And he can classify anything he wants (which has already been classified as such by the USSC) but if people and corporations and states do not adhere to STRINGENT cuts in ghgs it won't get done. Hopefully, any limits the EPA or the Federal govt may impose will also not supercede stronger cuts proposed and instituted by states already. And he then better be prepared to tell Americans that the cost of this may be passed onto them since he doesn't support a revenue neutral carbon tax that would lower emissions faster.

Over 60 new coal plants have already been stopped due to citizen activism so it isn't as if nothing has been done on that front. It is good he is stating he will do this (though I doubt the cuts will be what they MUST be now to avoid climate catastrophe) but let's not make him the savior of this and pinning all hope on one person. It isn't about him it is about all of us taking action.
More economists are supporting putting a price on carbon over cap and trade, as does Nobel Peace Prize recipient Al Gore.

http://www.carbontax.org/

This is plain silliness. The Earth warms and cools in cycles. Always has always will. There's no reason to think otherwise. Right now it's a cash cow.

It will be nice if Obama is elected and becomes president because that would mean for the first time in over 8 years we would have a president that believed that global warming is real and helped out by humans.

It is important that Obama be elected if there is to be any chance of turning around global warming. We need fast immediate action. It is going to take the commitment and hard work of everyone in our country and worldwide to change the bleak outlook.

Since the USA uses the most and has has a regime for the last 8 years that disregards global warming it means we must take the lead and we must cut consumption and turn away from fossil fuels.

I can't wait till they regulate the CO2 I breath out!

One of the major problems with global warming is its positive feedback loop. As ice sheets that have survived for millenniums melt and recede they expose more surface area to sunlight. Both exposed ground and water absorb tons more heat from sunlight than does glacial ice which reflects heat from the sun. So it becomes a self-sustaining process over which we likely have lost the real ability to control or inhibit. Ice cores from Antarctica show unprecedented CO2 levels over the past 600k year timespan.

"declare CO2 a dangerous pollutant"

It's sad that this obvious problem has to be declared, people are just shrugging it off like everything else.
Kudos to Saladin.

i agree with Saladin.

If you read the literature from the respected scientists, they're scared shitless.

If we stopped all of our emissions right now, we would just be doing damage control.

We've already unleashed the methane time bomb, action needed to be taken a decade ago (and it would have been much simpler too).

The essential point of global warming is NOT, like most people think, that man's levels of CO2 are warming the atmosphere that drastically. It's that our one degree of warming will MELT ICE CAPS and release methane gas and cause a runaway warming effect.

This will drastically change the climate in a way in which we aren't prepared to deal with.

By that standard, the Republicans have already fucked you.

I'm not going to say it's a certainty at this point that we're boned, but it sure as hell looks that way.

We would need to cut emissions NOW, as in, RIGHT NOW. Not a limit by 2012 or 2020, all of it, now, to stop this.

That's not going to happen, so we're probably boned.