Green | October 22, 2008 | 90 comments

Scientists erase specific memories in mice

source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20081022/hl_hsn/scientistserasespecificmemoriesinmice

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Pericles_Lewnes
It sounds like science fiction, by scientists say it might one day be possible to erase undesirable memories from the brain, selectively and safely.

Using a complex genetic approach, U.S. and Chinese researchers believe they have done just that in mice, but the feat is far from being tested on humans.

Study co-author Joe Z. Tsien, co-director of the Brain & Behavior Discovery Institute at the Medical College of Georgia, Augusta, says the "work reveals a molecular mechanism of how [memory deletion] can be done quickly and without doing damage to brain cells."

The finding is published in the Oct. 23 issue of Neuron.

Humans plagued by painful memories have long wished...

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90 comments // Scientists erase specific memories in mice

  • rebelution07
    • 0
      rebelution07  

    • Memories are important because that is what makes us who we are. I think they are going too far with erasing memories, that gives them too much power. It could be very dangerous in the wrong hands.

    • 3 years ago
  • satanskidney
  • jubal
  • hans57
  • StrangeConversation
  • rigellianaire
  • drewsuf721
  • krush_productions
  • indiaskys
    • 0
      indiaskys  

    • A “plus” for animal experiments…in the least the mice will forget they are being poked, sliced, tormented, and having been ripped away from their mothers during their pinkie stage!!!! Lacuna Mice®

    • 3 years ago
  • Johnny_Danger
  • breathexelectric
  • Mudora
    • 0
      Mudora  

    • As long as this stays permanently optional I couldn't care less. I'm never getting any of my memories painful or not erased, so I don't care. Sorry I haven't got much else to say.

    • 3 years ago
  • Robroy1
    • 0
      Robroy1  

    • Scientist and shrinks have been trying this for many many years with electro shock therapy, so far all they have created is zombies. I really don't see this working any time soon. I am not sure it is a good idea to begin with. I don't think trying to tighten or loosen screws in the human brain is such a good idea. The brain is much to complex and the results can be devastating and last throughout a lifetime.

    • 3 years ago
  • ProfessorFunk
    • 0
      ProfessorFunk  

    • While this is stimulating some great discussion people are overlooking what the research is actually saying.

      The mice only forgot traumatic moments when their brains were flooded with this protein at the moment of the trauma. It's a great premise but far from erasing 'specific' memories of the past.

      What it's saying is that if there is something you 'think' you'd want to forget then you'd have to overload your brain with this stuff.

      'I have a feeling I'm not really going to want to remember my visit to Guantanamo. Good think I've got an excess of CaMkII at hand!'

      Still very interesting but bad science journalism to put so much speculation on preliminary research.

    • 3 years ago
  • honusurf
    • 0
      honusurf  

    • In the wrong hands this kind of technology could be very destructive. Human memories are what make us unique, mess with that and we will all be nothing but a hodgepodge of manipulated mass.

    • 3 years ago
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  

    • starr111, I wonder what the long-term consequences will be, though. It seems like it is the approach of treating a symptom and not the cause. It is a manner of forcing the brain to repress something that still remains below the surface, imprinted in the body memory and the heart memory.

    • 3 years ago
  • starr111
    • 0
      starr111  

    • Everyone who is concerned about MICE.... I have news for you....

      This Sunday on the Science Channel's SciQ series they were performing this experiment with erasing memories on a HUMAN.

      It was a female rape victim and she was recovering better, grateful for the treatment, and couldn't forget the memory altogether. It only took out the sting.

    • 3 years ago
  • numinant
    • 0
      numinant  
    • starr111:

      what are you saying? that people who oppose vivisection are anti-rape victim?

      try this. try imagining a society in which animals, all animals, are treated with due respect, where it's society's shared worldview that weaker beings don't fall lower on some fabricated heirarchy of worth. now, in such a society, what do you think the incidents of rape might be?

    • 3 years ago
  • Dmitri_Molotov
  • 5thElement
    • 0
      5thElement  

    • Man it would be great if one day some of my undesirable memories just dissapeared. So maybe I could remember all of my good ones.

    • 3 years ago
  • numinant
  • mookster_07
    • 0
      mookster_07  

    • The brain already to an extent protects itself from undesirable memories. I think this is an interesting concept, but how detailed will they be able to get. You may want to forget an event but you would need to forget every step you took to get there... every one and thing which was involved. The wrong step and you could end up forgetting something very valuable to you... but i guess it wouldn't really matter in the long run.

    • 3 years ago
  • AxeRFJ
  • Vierotchka
  • anglcazn
    • 0
      anglcazn  
    • Vierotchka:

      The trauma you're referring to is physical trauma. The one I was referring to was psychological trauma where one is psychologically damaged because of the things they had witness. For instance, witnessing someone being tortured to death, raped, etc. Psychological trauma may be expressed through the body, such as the case with hysterical paralysis.

      I'm pretty mixed with the issue. But, overall I see this practice as more harmful than beneficial. Hence, my comment as only working on (psychologically) traumatized patients. :)

    • 3 years ago
  • Vierotchka
    • 0
      Vierotchka  
    • Vierotchka:

      Emotional trauma is also memorized in the body and in the heart. The body can somatize emotional traumas, true, just as the mind can "somatize" physical trauma - it is all inter-linked.

      Emotions have an effect on the body, they alter the hormone balance, they can trigger the production of adrenalin, etc., hence an emotional trauma will affect the body and leave an emotional imprint in the body, and in the heart.

    • 3 years ago
  • mattbrawn
    • 0
      mattbrawn  

    • I think this is getting into pretty shaky territory... no ones got any ideas of how taking certain memories away from people could affect their personalities or their future development...

      But, if it means I can forget how much money I've spent on vinyl in my life, then I'm up for it!

    • 3 years ago
  • vivi_B
  • dankitti
  • anglcazn
  • cantucwearebrothers
  • Robroy1
  • eden49
  • growdude420
    • 0
      growdude420  

    • From my personal experiences in life I can say that I've learned SOMETHING from even the worst experiences of my life. For examle: I once woke-up during sugery. It was the most intense, excruciating pain I've felt before or since. One might say "wouldn't it be great to forget that feeling?" I say no. It taught me to look at myself and realize "things could be a whole lot worse".
      On the other hand, I can't speak for a parent who's lost a chlid, a combat veteran, or the sole survivor of a disaster. Would they choose to forget, or continue to remember such mental trauma? I'm sure science will decide for them one day.

    • 3 years ago
  • donnellydune
  • TopScruffy
  • Tyrannous
  • oblivious
  • oblivious
  • oblivious
    • 0
      oblivious  
    • oblivious:

      Yes, there are a lot of theories out there. The most prominent, however, deal with depression as a cognitive disorder involving memory. What I do find a bit odd is that you're putting the aim of the study as something useless (i.e. "because it's interesting or for a less innocent reason, not because it can help anyone"). I know you have strong feelings against animal research, but please try to stay objective. We cannot treat anything without knowing the full mechanisms of a disorder. In the case of this study, they're studying the molecular components.

      But back to theories. What theories are most prominent in your mind? And how, in your view, do they not relate to memory?

    • 3 years ago
  • oblivious
    • 0
      oblivious  
    • oblivious:

      But that is where you and I disagree. I work with both animals and humans, and I see animal models of use to the field. I also disagree with you that this research will not benefit anyone, since the molecular mechanisms of memory deletion can be applied to other disorders. But, in the end, we can agree to disagree.

      I do agree with you on therapy (i.e. CBT) before the continuous popping of pills. Even in the case of this memory deletion aspect, I still believe that therapy is a stronger tool, but in severe cases of PTSD I'm still mixed. I also agree on the biopsychosocial theoretical aspects that you've mentioned, but memory is still tied to it. We still don't know a lot about depression, but we do know that when people present with depression and have feelings of worthlessness/guilt (one of the strongest symptoms of MDD) its tied to memory (be it rumination over an incident or self-evaluation based on previous memories).

    • 3 years ago
  • oblivious
    • 0
      oblivious  
    • oblivious:

      Most of them probably back out because they realize its not worth their time to argue with you. If you're so passionate about a subject, will any argument move you? Probably not. And I don't want to persuade you. But one thing I find interesting, and almost always come across with people who're against animal research is that they rarely respect my opinion but want me to respect theirs.

      But onto my thoughts. If it'll help humanity, then yes, I'm for it. Again, this is where we'll disagree. You're educated enough in the matter, so you'll know what I mean when I say higher-functioning versus lower-functioning. Do you think they're like us? Genetically, we're similar, structurally to some extent as well. Cognitive processing wise, are you going to argue that a rat is like a human? That its a higher functioning species?

      As far as the torture aspect goes, what exactly do you think goes on when we test on animals? That we strap them down without any anesthetic before implanting cannulas in them? We try to minimize all aspects of pain, but in the end they're still sacrificed. Yes, it sucks that we have to do it at all, but if it comes down to a Parkinson's patient and a rat, I'll choose my fellow man over a rat. You've probably heard the pro-animal model argument involving insulin and juvenile diabetes, so I'll spare you the details. But again, if it comes down to it, humans are more important.

      I love how you make reference to concentration camps. Again, animals are not like humans, in my opinion. You're entitled to yours, and thats fine. Yes, humans throughout history have been sacrificed under the heading of "medical research." French mental institutions allowed surgeons to conduct surgery while patients were alive, without anesthetic, in order to "further the cause." Do you think any rational human is going to argue that it was right? Of course not. Its horrible that it happened, without any doubt. You can link animal research to concentration camps because thats how you feel. You can even say that their deaths have no medical basis. Now I'll ask you a question: all the human deaths that have been prevented due to animal research, were they in vain?

      Look, we'll never persuade each other. I, however, can respect your opinion, even if you care more about animals than humans.

    • 3 years ago
  • oblivious
    • 0
      oblivious  
    • oblivious:

      My argument of higher versus lower is in terms of species. A rat will never attain the level of even a handicapped person or an infant. Just by judging cortical size, do you think they will? Do rat families suffer just like human families do? Rats function higher than humans?

      You mentioned that most animals are resilient to MPTP. Have you looked if rats were?

      Yes, humans are animal beings, but we're not on par with rats. Yes, try as we may, they still suffer and are sacrificed. But in the end its to enhance our survival. You ask me to switch places with the animals next time I walk through a lab. I have, and will continue to. However, I want you to switch places with an advanced Parkinson's or Alzheimer's patient next chance you get. Think of their suffering and the suffering of their families. Who is more important, a rat or a human? Who suffers more?

      Again, we will never see eye to eye. But I have one more pressing question, what do you propose we do for research in terms of Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, and other medical conditions?

    • 3 years ago
  • oblivious
  • Kylsport
    • 0
      Kylsport  

    • This would be beneficial in removing any knowledge of our country's history, thus enabling our politicians to move "..towards a more perfect (global) union". It could also help erase memories of Him who died on the cross, thereby, sealing our own fate and subjecting ourselves to our messianic tyrant kings.

    • 3 years ago
  • VTJimO
  • bloodhound
  • ArtisGilmoreHOF
  • Eat_Disco
  • superkiy
    • 0
      superkiy  

    • Hmm ... if they can make us forget specific things that happened, the obvious next step would be to make us remember things that didn't happen. There's something oddly gratifying about seeing science fiction come true, even if it's scary.

    • 3 years ago
  • Swiyyah
  • RS57
    • RS57 [removed]  
    • This comment was removed as a violation of community guidelines.
  • cantucwearebrothers
  • frank_runyeon
  • KateLove
    • 0
      KateLove  

    • How odd, I'm right now writing a paper on Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind for my Ethics in Emerging Technologies class. Thanks for this article; it'll definitely put that extra mmph in my paper! Crazy stuff.

    • 3 years ago
  • ProfessorFunk
  • J_Jammer
    • 0
      J_Jammer [removed]  

    • I believe there are some memories that make people worse than they actually are. It would be cool to remove those.

      But at the same time I find this more along the lines of something that will be abused (if it's possible for humans). Yeah.

    • 3 years ago
  • pokesmot
  • dies_irea
  • telekinesis
  • KarlitoMosquito
    • 0
      KarlitoMosquito  
    • telekinesis:

      This definitely sounds like "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" and I am just as torn now as I was when I saw that movie. Do I have memories I would like to forget? Absolutely! Am I worried that erasing said memories might change me as a person? Absolutely!

      But the biggest question I have is: How the hell can a scientist know for sure they erased only the proper memory from the mice? I mean, their MICE it's not like they were able to tell the scientists! What if they also removed other important memories along with the 'bad' ones?

      Without darkness there is no light, without misery there can be no happiness, so I guess I'll keep my bad memories so that I can enjoy the good ones...

    • 3 years ago
  • Ish05
  • satanskidney
  • anglcazn
  • yaget1chance
    • 0
      yaget1chance  

    • Yes, I can see how this could be usefull. However, we base our actions, reactions, all learned behavior on memories...how will this work. I don't think we know enough to play with this...

    • 3 years ago
  • crimson_saint
    • 0
      crimson_saint  
    • yaget1chance:

      I agree. If a subject loses memories of the past, how will that affect their current behavior, attitudes, and morals? Would it be a significant or hardly noticeable? Science may one day go too far.

    • 3 years ago
  • Johnny_Danger
  • telekinesis
  • majormajor
  • phukna
  • islek
  • Relevations
    • 0
      Relevations  

    • ...if mice are running things....per Douglas Adams...Hitchhikers Guide.....there are going to be some scientists with sore asses....and be sure to give the Dolphins extra fish......Golden Ruler.....Johnnie Hargrave

    • 3 years ago
  • korourke
  • J_Jammer
  • digitrash
  • AlexisRayne
  • vladbox
    • 0
      vladbox  

    • No need for research, in the US powerful subliminal messages from the tv and media, makes americans forget every four years who they voted for four years before.

    • 3 years ago
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