God does not exist?

Well not to be a ‘know it all’, because I am not. However, there are a group of assumptions which are allowed to proliferate in the climate of academics. I am compelled to address them. The first of which is that scientific theory always produces the right or correct answer. While this is mostly true, and science has done wondrous things, it is not infallible.( In the 1980’s the entire academic community concluded there could be not live on the ocean floor.) Even Einstein, the father of modern physics, was very comfortable with the concept of intelligent design/a creator. It might also be noted that Isaac Newton (father of understanding gravity), Robert Boyle (father of chemistry), and Michael Faraday (father of electro Magnetism) were all comfortable with the concept of Intelligent design/a creator. Science and religion need not compete or be adversaries. Further it might be worth notice that carbon dating, which is taken as law, is rife with flaws. Assumptions are a pathway to ruin. C14 dating has several foundational assumptions which most everyone is willing to over look. First, can the decay rate be assumed to have been constant for 'millions of years'; Second, can the deposit rate be assumed to have been constant for 'millions of years'; Third, can we assume that the earth's atmosphere has been roughly the same for 'millions' of years'. If you are willing to make these assumptions, then carbon dating works. Truth be known, however, the Austin Chalk layers of the Cretaceous gives evidence of a universal, world wide flood. The layer encircles the globe as is only cased by water. Second, fossils are not confined to a layer of sediment but are dispersed throughout sedimentary layers. The stratification of fossils in the sediment does not occur in the field. It is a lab phenomenon. In the field there is more evidence that these elements coexisted...man, dinosaur, et. al. Third, 'millions of years old' fossil evidence is comingled with human presence evidence (by this I mean a 'shoe' print as if a man wearing sandals squished a million year old extinct bug!) Fourth, the crystalline layer that enclosed the earth’s atmosphere at that time doubled our current atmospheric pressure and, before the water came from the deep, prevented any C14 from forming thereby creating the illusion/assumption that anything from that period is 'millions of years old'. Basic point, some of the people you believe in believe in God/Intelligent design. Evidence points to intelligent design as much as anything else...actually, more so to intelligent design! Sorry, those are the facts jack. Choose what you want to believe but do not, for one second, pretend that the existence of God is not a viable, realistic, proven alternative. Exodus happened! Peace be with you whatever you choose.

Hey, a friend just told me for proof google God!

Thank you, Solar_Wind, I needed that!
I have been going through trying times for many years, my faith has been tested in so many ways. I know God exists, I know He loves us and so me but I can't seem to except the horrors that happen to good, honest, truely loving people. In nursing and in those around me I have seen such sorrow such pain it is devastating and disheartening. Then all of my "old" spiritual places I could go to, to feel the closest to God have been taken away from me. Even praying no longer fullfills me. I'm lost. This site has helped. Again thank you!

and what RussRuss? would the mere fact of dinosaurs disprove the fact of God in your mind? talk about a leap of faith... no, you are right to approach the subject with the trepidation of humbler respects that you seem to...

All of you idiots who believe in this racketeering con game should be aware by now that religion is just a sad life of sex slaves and controll freaks. Hasn't this world suffered from all of you religious freaks who thrive on war and bloodshed. Wake up to reality, There is no God and country, only a land of crooks and corruption and killing machines.

This probabably will not change many minds but I feel driven to state something. I've often wondered if god created everything, he must have just existed in the first place somehow. If you're willing to accept that statement, ponder this, isn't it then possible that the universe just existed in the first place somehow, without any need of a god? We know enough about the way newtonian and quantum physics work to explain nearly everything we see and experience. That being said, there are things that cannot yet be explained beyond reasonable doubt. Wether or not you believe in a creator is your own decision, it is not however your decision to make anyone else believe something you firstly cannot prove but also cannot fully comprehend yourself. I am not going to reply to any comments regarding my post as I do not have the energy. You should just be good people, be good to each other and take care of this earth. After all we have to give this place to our kids. I know I would be pretty upset given the circumstances if my parents were apathetic about something we know to be real and important. As for organized religion I have one thing to say, Dinosaurs.

@chillmonkey.....appropiate tag for one who deny's the
excistence of our Heavenly Father.....This means you
were spawned by APES or MONKEYs your preference
it will all be a 'moot point' when you are called & the quick
look at The Book of Life will reveal you are ABSENT!!!!!!
Then what happens to you chillmonkey i would not wish
on ANYONE!!! Have you ever heard the old adage that
There are no atheist in foxholes? There isn't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have heard non-believers 'Praying like a Preacher'!!!
I have also been the receipent of what can only be his
hand!!!! You can attempt to get very deep on this
subject, But it makes your arguement no more valid!!!
You choose to ignore Miracles & attempt to validate
your beleifs with a long story that is entertaining but
specious bull****!!!!!!!!!

Great post ! A lively debate and worthy topic . I'd like to add that religion is NOT based on FAITH , but FEAR . fear of punishment for not believing . Also , the universe seems awe inspiring enough , does the definition of "GOD" need to have such a human like personality ? What if it turns out to be an innate creative impulse ? What if LIFE = GOD ? We can't comprehend something so vaguely defined .

When there is still and element missing from the equation that we cannot even comprehend (i.e. the size of the universe), it IS IMPOSSIBLE for any human to define or prove or disprove the existence of things beyond our comprehension.

Welcome to the Catch 22.

In the meantime, humans do have very vivid imaginations, which CAN BE PROGRAMMED. Just look at the TV. What they are told, when internalized, can modify behavioral programming. The real behavioral and thought modification when expressed in actions and interactions with elements of the environment equals something real and that can be proven and easily seen.

So in that context, the concept of God exists, because people are willing to accept an imaginary force as the guiding behavioral protocol and call it God, although it is obviously relative, subjective, and a clear product of what I presume was intended to be "optimized" group behavior.

BTW...the first page of that entire thing is flawed, because, ironically, the true option is not present.

The truth is, absolute truth exists, but man does not have the capacity to comprehend it because each human perspective is just one infinitely small frame of reference.

Therefore, the concept of God can be absolute truth, but it is somewhat irrelevant to us, because we cannot detect it without using machines to record all angles at once.

Therefore absolute truth can be created I suppose.

Enter Google.

Yes, I just make this up as I go, and no, I don't actually believe everything I say, because I am just an above average ant in the grand scheme of things.

Who says you exist?

What if you are just the equivalent of a 3D computer program? (you are)

The concept of God certainly exists, but far too many seem to have distorted it into childlike fairytales from when the Earth was perceived as flat to the point that people reject that 'God' exists when it is really just that personification of God that doesn't exist.

Silly ant humans, things beyond your comprehension are simply beyond your comprehension.

After today, I have to take an break from use of my computer because I'm unemployed. I'm giving my computer to the landlord until I'm employed, and able to get the rent current. Matt 5:30 "And if your right hand should cause you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you, for it is better for you to lose one of your members, and not all your body fall into hell."

I've always appreciated that explanation of the odds that evolution being true are phenomenally unrealistic. You'd have slightly better near absolutely guaranteed unluckiness expecting a tornado to whip through a junkyard and at the end of it, finding a brand spanking new Boeing 747 tanked up with engines roaring and ready for lift off. =D It's humoring how the godless tend not to follow almighty "Logic" for all it's worth when they claim absolute "rationality" to be their most precious faculty.

Even intricate workings of DNA (the highly specific chemicals and properties and the TIMING necessary, for the crazily complex functions like checking and fixing, etc.) freakn begs God-like and MOST OBVIOUS PURPOSE in DESIGN! Think people. If you threw up a deck of cards even in a million years would you, could you "logically" expect a house of cards replete with little windows, pitched roofs, swinging doors, and a picket fence yard with flowers, grass and a little barking dog at the end of it??? =D Evolution requires an honestly and ridiculously greater amount of "faith" to believe in.

Even simple cells have highly-technical better than "state of the art" motors revving at thousands of RPM's more efficient than any engine any human has ever hoped to be able to produce. All this incredibly efficient design...it's absolutely so much more than awesomely-incredible! Although the academic establishment certainly takes note and interest, publicly, they only care to suppress the obvious fact that the glory of some God is most obviously and absolutely undeniable. So they do whatever they can to save face. Scriptures say these kind refuse to give God His just due and as a consequence their minds are darkened from even acknowledging Him. Atheism seems a logical consequence of this kind of "open mindedness". But engineers and man always, without fail, looks to something already existing in nature, to harness it's power as an inherently "better" model and design to follow and constantly find it's just freakn very difficult to reproduce or understand what we do find in nature so many times over and over again. The inherent design built into nature is such that we know it will inspire us, if we but apply ourselves. That's the gift of an awesome God, not some Frankenstein's chance in hell as if a tumble jumble and shake of ivory tusks could mindlessly suddenly by chance alone become an exquisitly ornate and finely-tuned FUNCTIONAL piano...so many of the systems we see are so highly undeniably DESIGNED I think you really sincerely have to be self-deluded, institutionalized asshole and or just some self-aggrandizing idiot to honestly believe in it [i.e. evolution].

Knowing that the universe springs from chaos into a concretely somewhat fathomably fixed and sometimes completely unknowable order (how does gravity really work??? all this theoretical bullshit about something tangibly called a gravitron as if everything really must be comprised of some kind of substance, gravity seems as much or more metaphysical than anything else we know) is all enough for me to know it's highly probable there is a Creator who knew/knows exactly what the hell is going on, even if it's not to our precious self-satisfaction or imperfect knowledge. The energies of the universe are such that all things really are held together by His "power"--which is namelessly something the scientific community refuses to "open-mindedly" entertain. But we're all just along for the ride wherever we find ourselves along the way.

Standing by a riverside, noticing a smooth oval rock worn by rain, wind, time and chance, but then noticed a chiselled arrowhead nearby. Could you "logically" infer that the arrowhead had indeed been created and designed, infused with purpose other than time and chance??? heh Wake up atheists.

uh duh- Jesus Made God- I'm pretty sure-I'm paraphrasing

Hey solarwind if there is a god then who made him?

Is it just me or is it astoundingly alarming that the majority of humans on this planet sincerely believe that the world is going to end sometime in the near future? At what point does it turn into a self fulfilled prophecy?

see i dont accuse christians of blind faith...as i dont blindly believe the laws of physics and mathematics...i accuse christians of circular reasoning...example...THAT LINK...

physics can be proven to me by the laws of mathematics but circular reasoning cannot be proven or disproven...so why in the world would you use it as a concrete proof "i dont know if absolute truth exists...absolutely true or false" what the hell does that prove except you can go around in circles until i give up?

i may not completely understand the math that goes into theoretical physics...but if anyone decides to put in the effort...they can...giving me 2 options that are further from true than they are true is not proof

Before I answer all your questions and I WILL I want you to read this which I posted as a response to the Atheist Manifesto. @plusaf and others: I respect your freewill and I can't force you to believe me but I will tell you this. You tell in your story that a missionary converted an Eskimo, who didn't know of God... So the Eskimo who didn't know God (or anyone who didn't know of God for that matter) was converted without free will to make his own decision, thus screwing up his salvation which is not how the Bible explains it. Nobody can make anyone do anything no matter what. That is the beauty of freewill. In the end you will always have a choice. If someone pointied a gun to your head, and demanding you turn over your wallet... IT'S YOUR CHOICE... Lets look at the choice of Heaven or Hell... Do you want to be with God or not? Who wouldn't? Imagine how cool that would be! Finally getting to see God, Jesus, and all the angels in his wonderment! We hear Heaven is a place without sin unlike our Earth and the reason its so great is everyone accepts God and his laws which are perfect and amazing! Nobody dies, nobody lies, nobody hungers, nobody thirsts, ... you get the picture. We all live forever in harmony (something which is impossible on Earth) I can't wait! Unfortunately EVERYONE defies God and his perfect and amazing world and fails to do what he tells us therefore preventing us from being in heaven since everyone is supposed to accept God. Defying God is known as sin. The reason Adam and Eve sinned is they we're tempted by Satan who was thrown out of heaven (heavenly name was Lucifer) because he defied God. Since officially no one can make you do anything, it was our fault even though Satan would seem like the one to blame. So Satan defies God and tempts us into defying God as well and it works. So then of course Adam & Eve realized that they had sinned and God cursed them and all the generations thereafter. A lot happens in between and I need to read so we'll cut to the most important part.

Continued on next comment.

I've decided before I finally go to sleep I will pose some more questions for you to think about before we speak again:

- Are informed decisions generally "better" than non-informed decisions? Shoud we seek out as much relevant information as possible before forming opinions or making decisions on any given issue?

- Should people be required to inform themselves before deciding on a religion or is taking another persons word for "it" acceptable? How did you inform yourself before coming to your current beliefs?

- When seeking the information to make the most informed decision possible, should any material be considered other than the Bible itself?

- Is historical knowledge of it's authorship, editing, translating, canonizing, and distribution relevant to making the most informed decision possible? Should historical or scientific information be disregarded if it contradicts common conceptions held by the believers?

- Could the history of not only the Bible, but the first 300+ years of early Christianity be of additional value? Would it be helpful to know what it meant to be a Christian before the 1st Bibles were produced in 325 AD? Would it be helpful to know the entire history of the religion, from Jesus until today, before making an informed decision?

- Do you believe the Bible to be divinely inspired and absolutely factual? Old and New Testaments? What information led you to this conviction? Did it require you to sacrifice any other information which you had previously considered factual? If so, how did you reconcile this?

- Do you believe it is appropriate for believers of the Bible to accept the parts they like and ignore the rest? Do you or your religious leaders do this?

- Do you believe the threat of eternal damnation is enough to convert people into ACTUALLY believing? Is fear of hell a valid reason to accept a certain God? Won't God see through me? What if all the religions demand I believe them and them alone or be damned for eternity? If I'm just hedging my bets, how do I choose?

What arguments could be made for choosing Christianity that cannot be made for choosing Judaism or Islam?

Answering these questions as well as my previous ones will help me understand you better and allow me to concentrate my points in the right places.

Take your time, I aint going nowhere and the truth shall set you free. That truth being that you don't know shit just like I don't know shit, and realizing this is pure liberation for you mind, body and soul. It's not a spiritual vaccuum and the water is just fine. Peace.

I do not have a God, so he/she/it requires nothing from me. I do have a mind and possibly even a soul, and they DO demand quite a bit. They demand I exercise them regularly and to keep them healthy by seeking love, wisdom and good times. I do this by being young at heart, free of spirit and open of mind. If I have a concerned creator, he created me this way and surely expects nothing less, nothing more.

I do not need to understand the whole universe in my lifetime. The best I can do is to know myself and be true. If I do that successfully I have achieved a great work in my life. In death I might find more even more answers and witness more beauty, but there is enough before me to keep me amazed for 1,000 years (God willing, LOL).

You last 2 questions are off topic and reveal some of your assumptions about God that I don't share, such as that it is a he, that it is an individual, that it has a personality, that it is paying attention to all of it's creations, that it has a vested interest in the outcome of it's creations, that it requires it reveal itself to it's creation in order to achieve it's desired outcome, and that for some reason that course of action makes more sense than if it had just done whatever it wanted in the first place. Therefore, I cannot answer that question.

As for the last question i don't understand it. Besides, you've yet to answer any of the questions I placed before you, so...

I would find it more interesting and beneficial to discuss the nature of consciousness, the holographic model of our minds and the cosmos, synchronicities, the collective unconscious, archetypes, the nature of time and space and the possibility of a universal "force" that somehow binds together everything and everyone in it in some eternal, creative/destructive yin/yang sort of way. It might actually help us find "God", and whatever it is, it's in us and surrounds us; "it binds the galaxy together"... =)

If Solar Wind and others were trying to claim that there is reason to believe in a Grand Architect and nothing more, the debate would be much more serious and much more thought provoking. Sadly that is not the case.

Instead Solar Wind and others are claiming that the Scriptures written by men are not only historically true, but inspired by a fiery, judgmental God who is concerned with our every thought and action. They claim there is a Hell and a Satan to punish for all eternity those who don't believe that the prophecies from Revelations are legitimate, etc. If god is such a despot, I want no part of him.

For the love of humanity, stop the madness. Whille I don't agree with Unimatrix that there is nothing mystical about life and existence and that we are nothing more than bags of rotting flesh, I acknowledge that he might be right. And he is correct that the burden of proof is on BELIEVERS to backup your BELIEFS. My belief is that I don't know, ultimately, if there is some kind of God or Force or Tao. By saying maybe I prove my sanity. You not only claim to have THE answer to a question you can't have an answer for, but you claim the answer is the Christian Bible. Oy vey.

I am willing to pretend you didn't say the Bible was divinely inspired. But do I really have to give a list of things that have already been proven wrong (factually and morally) by ethics, science, history? Do you seriously claim that the Old or New Testaments are so infallible that we should ignore all the information we have collected since the time they were written? Have you ever read Dueteronomy or Leviticus? Do you call that absolute divine morality?

I am telling you now, using history and science alone, I can shred your "proof" of Yaweh, Jesus, Allah, Zeus or L. Ron friggin' Hubbard as God. An abstract Grand Architect, we'd have a real debate and might eventually agree, but the Bible got it right? C'mon. Let me ask you some yes or no questions:

Do you deny evolution as a scientific fact? Do you deny that the story of Jesus is a direct descendant from the Egyptian story of Horus? Do you deny that the canonical New Testament was written decades after the life of Jesus (if there was one) and by people who never met him, leaving blank the majority of his life? Do you deny that the first versions of the New Testament were not published or distributed until after the Council of Nicea in 325 AD? Do you deny that it was a diverse group of early Christain men, with widely varying beliefs about Jesus, who voted on which texts would be canonized? Yet you claim this book, a collection of stories written decades after the main characters death; first edited, publsihed or distributed hundreds of years after the main characters death- this book is "proof" of the main characters divinity?

Do I really need to explain history to you, that all the myths of the Old and New Testaments, were evolved versions of older ones, from Egypt and Akkadia and Babylonia and Sumeria? The virgin birth, the resurrection, there's a whole lot of "borrowing". Don't fret, this is the way it's always been. We spead out. We interact. We adapt. We evolve. Same thing for our ideas. We weren't supposed to stop using our minds 2,000 years ago. Religion as a whole has stalled humanity's embrace of the true divinity within us all and the cosmos at large.

Do I really need to explain how science is uncovering some amazing and unimaginable phenomena in the natural world that might one day lead us to the truth about a possible God and ALL OF OUR connection to it (not just believers)?

Putting it on me or Uni to prove the New Testament is false is inappropriate, but I can do it if you insist.

I deny that anyone has given reasons to believe in anything more than the possibility that things can sometimes happen which defy our current ability to understand and explain them by science. Anything and everything that exists, including those things we don't yet know, are therefore "natural" and part of the natural order of existence (whatever that is).

Solar Wind, thank you for inviting me to this debate. You may prefer you hadn't, lol.

all i have to say is wooooow
that whole proof thing didn't even make sense!

If anything this helps support the irrationality of the christian world view. It creates a polarization and level of flawed logic that do not exist in this world of grey, reducing this argument into nothing but the disjointed babbling of an illogical fool trying to exploit non existent loopholes in the mind.

"In the universe there is an immeasurable, indescribable force which shamans call intent, and absolutely everything that exists in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link"

Carlos Castaneda

The post itself was a lure for everyone to have an debate about if this belief of god actually exists...

read the Euthyphro, by Plato, and you will find that morality is independent of god's will.

We do not need a god to tell us what is right and what is wrong. Use your mind.

>>unimatrix0 said: jesus is some dead dude, not divine but no doubt charming, and just another bag of rotting flesh.

I hope that all you lovely people out there who are typing away on your key boards realize one thing...for the last 'xx' years the Physics community has been refining the ideas of a Christian Hebrew by the name of Einstein. Yup that crazy Christian is the father of modern physics and since his time the physics community, for the most part, has been refining his ideas. Hmmm ? Not really adding anything new, except for what is now possible with new equipment, but refining the ideas of Einstein. Sooo clearly, reasoning and mathematics are not contradictory to Christianity but in fact enhance it. Hey Atheists, don't you remember when the story of Exodus was touted as a nice tale (up into the 1980's) and then a peculiar thing happened, historical artifacts were found supporting all the events of Exodus? It even became a little mini series on TV. Then you reply, 'well o.k. it happened but not like the bible said'. Sooo sad. Call it whatever you will, understand it however you might, but your mind is only limited to what you can see or imagine, and what you can see or imagine is limited to what you can understand. Tell me, how long would it take you to teach nuclear fusion to a catfish? Watch the birds but you can not fly. See the shadow on the moon but believe you are flat and in the middle of the solar system. Go ahead now. Tell me what you know!

thank you solar wind

I hope you recognize soon that there is no god. you seem like a nice person and it is a shame to spend one's life a slave to deception.