Green Taboo: Population

If you look back even as little as 75 years, it was common to have 10-12 children. When I studied genealogy I was amazed at the lists of children born of a man and woman. But, those were days when you needed help to survive in rural places esp.

We are not in that era anymore. As someone on current said "This is a hot, overpopulated,noisy, polluted rock", planet earth.

We better find some answers soon. Those who have the least education are often the ones who have large numbers of children without means of caring for them.Of all the babies born in 2008, over 50% were unwed mothers .Not to say one has to be married, but if we have to have a license to fish, I think it is becoming apparent with so much neglect/abuse of children, we might at least need some education for the youth who don't get that at home.

the answer is "eficent human living systems"
I have been developing a solution for world change
for three years,but at 38 years of age , i belive it is a culmanation of my life experiances,the reading of hundreds of books and the refining of micro and macro observation.
looking at the world i see solutions,beacouse i look for them,all we have to do is look and we will see, it is no part time gig.
good post thanks for raising awareness,
awareness caryies the winds of change.

The Rain
Abu Bin Adam was a young child in Multan Pakistan, it was Friday the month of March in 1977, the heavenly light told Abu,“ the first rain on the Vernal Equinox will be the rain of Holy water and drinking of that water will purify the human body . The city of Cure was burning with heat and dust from the Sun rays until noon then God (Rab) started the gusty wind and within few hours rain of holy water was pouring down from the skies . The smell of dust was giving taste of heaven and I prayed to my God and said (Subhan na rabi al ahla) Jame Alome (Drink of Knowledge) was pouring down from the skies which I collected in a small bucket and drank . It is the rain that started life on earth millions of years ago on the dry land . It is the day when gravity hit the earth and movement of time and the round holy dance of nature started for the garden of Adam. Ritual of SADQA “donation” ( Giving to Poor and throwing food for ocean life, Birds and animals and planting seeds and flowers started many years ago in Human Faith of Mehdi .
Blessing on humanity (Rabi) from Mehdi and Adam the father and the son with Holy Spirit!
It is true that the phenomena of life is stuck in the pressure of gravity which is losing pressure due to temperature change .The phenomena of gravity is distributing equal weight on ocean waters and mass of gases surrounding a shallow body of cultivating system of nature. It is the pressure that divide water and gases equally that makes the shape of earth looks round and colorful. The knots of mountains are holding our piece of solid mineral deposits can reshape it self due to pressure change. It is just matter of time when new island will emerge from water and old go under. The root cause that is affecting mother nature and reproduction system of earth worm and bacteria is humanity was never enforced by selfish ancient and modern civilizations . The personal propriety that we bring on this earth is the nature and the root of that nature is humanity .The human faith pro life agenda for all creatures is humanity. The painful condition that is destroying cultivating system is not understanding connection that the basic human knowledge starts with nature. The fusion reactor of the sun has the same system of reproducing energy the way we do on earth the only difference is this earth is losing natural resources too fast due to ignorant modern merchants of life . Human faith is Mehdi’s and Adam’s monotheistic faith and knows that God is the creator and overseer of the universe at all the time and all matters. It is time to modernize our faith by adopting true faith and educate mankind in accordance with basic principle of life. Our vision is to introduce true human religion by mobilizing communities and faiths around the world to improve people’s lives .Our mission is to strength the bond of humanity (Rabi) by introducing human faith religion.
IN GOD (Rab) WE TRUST WE HAVE FAITH IN HUMANITY (Rabi).
Rabi has many meaning in our language.
1. Rabi is Book of Human Faith.
2. Rabi is brain.
3. Rabi is humanity.
4. Rabi is our tongue.

Alarming that our population still remains unchecked when it comes to co-existing with our environment and world. When things come to a head over population control I suspect one of the things to be proposed worldwide will be legislation to restrict child birth.

malthusian vs cornicopian

Have any of you read Daniel Quinn's work? "Ishmael" and "the story of B" really drive home the point that only one society has taken over the planet in a way that is destructive in the last few 1000 years forcing everyone to do it our way or die. Mega-farming with surplus is different from a subsistance attitude of taking only what we need. Quinn makes a very good argument to simply stop growing more food every year, grow the same amount and you will get the same amount of humans. People are made of food!! if the amount of food remains the same we will simply adjust accordingly without any more starvation then there already is and soon much less than before.
It sounds crazy but when you read you learn that he is right.

Who is it exactly that we're supposed to stop from having children? Developed industrialized countries tend to have lower birth rates, and LDCs tend to have higher ones. I'm all for expanding birth control education to these developing countries, but to propose that there should be some upper limit we need to enforce in these countries... that's ridiculous. There is enough food for people to eat. Subsidies in developed countries, Monsanto seed patents, and various other mechanisms make food much harder to get where people are dying of starvation. I don't think population is the problem. Instead of going to Africa and arresting people that have more than one or two children maybe we should just cut our carbon output, or maybe actually RECYCLE instead of just shipping 'recyclable' objects to other countries to be dismantled and sorted with no health, safety, or environmental regulation enforcement. Or maybe we should promote closed loop production/reuse. The answer is not population control.

The greenest thing any of could do is to not reproduce.

in the seventies..it was ZPG: zero population growth: every couple has 2 to replace themselves. In the U.S. the average family has 1.86 children (according to the 2000 census).

I did state that was just one reason and I said organized religion not Christianity as you assumed by your quotes. I also used the words - cultures - and - institutions - , to represent other groups of individuals involved in birth control issues. That's great you have your religion, But I was not commenting on religion alone. The word just happened to be written first.

It is well known and documented that as the standard of living rises---birth rates fall. This has been demonstrated over and over again demographically.

The standard of living will rise when the haves in this world show some compassion and concern for those who have not. One way to do that is to reject any and all political systems that allow the exploitation of others to enrich the few, whether within national boundaries or outside of national boundaries. It is time to reject political and economic colonialism in favor of partnership and fair treatment for all people everywhere.

God made this world with both renewable, sustainable resources----and finite non renewable resources. He gave us coal and oil, and he gave us plants----then he told us "Behold, I give you the earth and all that flies, walks, swims and crawls upon it to have dominion over it, and every kind of herb and green plant for you to use." He didn't say, to tear up and destroy to enrich yourselves out of greed and lust for power. He said to use. What we use---we need to replace. Jesus told us there are two great commandments when he was asked which was the most important to God. Love God is the first, then he said, "The second is like unto the first[in importance], Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." ------- "Then they said to Him, "Lord, when did we ever see you hungry, thirsty, sick, naked or troubled? Jesus answered them and said, "Whatever you have done for the least of mine, you have done for me."

If we take care of God's earth, God's earth will take care of us. If we take care of the least of God's children, God will take care of us. God does not break his promises.

Just One Reason---- While There is still organized religion that shuns the use of birth control, not to mention entire cultures where women have no control over their own bodies, and as long as theses institutions are enable with power, power given to them by lack of sexual education, power of fear, and/or by political support, etc..It will continue to be a large down fall in the health of our planet and those who inhabit it .
( definition )-Faith is a belief, professedly without acceptable proof.( Bush's fav word)
I'd rather my world leaders have Reason then faith.

This was posted 10 days ago, why the fuck is it on the main news page?

Not to worry folks.

All these speculations and dire predictions are just tempests in the teapot.

Oil is the key. The US attacks Iraq and stations an army and navy in the Middle East to grab oil reserves. Pakistan has nuclear weapons and terrorists by the boatload---so many boatloads they send them to India. Saudi Arabia has terrorists everywhere----so many that 11 out of 19 911 terrorists are Saudi's. So what does Bush do? He makes friends and cozies up to King Fahd who the terrorists absolutely HATE and want to depose. THEN Bush sends nuclear reactors to Saudi Arabia so there will be nuclear weapons THERE too! THEN, he starts rattling his sabre at Iran because they MIGHT make nuclear weapons and the terrorists who already liked Iran because they formed a government based on Islamic religion---REALLY start to like Iran more and more every day.

Well, good ole boy George had to leave, but NOT to worry---everything he put in place is STILL there.

So one of these days-----KABLOOHI!!!! Nuclear War. or two, or three.

Voila, no more population problems. Good ole George has everything under control.;

" The Things to do are: the things that need doing, that you see need to be done, and that no one else seems to see need to be done. Then you will conceive your own way of doing that which needs to be done — that no one else has told you to do or how to do it. This will bring out the real you that often gets buried inside a character that has acquired a superficial array of behaviors induced or imposed by others on the individual.

Nature is trying very hard to make us succeed, but nature does not depend on us. We are not the only experiment.

The most important thing to teach your children is that the sun does not rise and set. It is the Earth that revolves around the sun. Then teach them the concepts of North, South, East and West, and that they relate to where they happen to be on the planet's surface at that time. Everything else will follow. "

*~ R. Buckminster Fuller

__^__
R.B.F-^-^-~*

HOT TOPIC! easier access to birth control, further development of male contraceptives, and NO tax breaks for having kids, EVER!

The whole "green" movement would be going to far if it started saying that there needs to be a population check. This is just in several areas. In some countries like Japan, the population is dwindling.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7084749.stm

The faith-based claim that there is no human population problem is toxic nonsense.
It makes me think if these folks have traveled at all in the world they must have been wearing blinders when they passed through Cairo, Nairobi, Mumbai, and Sao Paulo.
Glassy-eyed proposals to remedy the problem by blasting millions of humans into space to colonize oxygen-free planets make even less sense.
Is that supposed to happen in our lifetime?
Have you done the pay-load physics and planetary environmental impact of hundreds of thousands of rocket-shaped cattle cars blasting into space from Earth? Get serious.
Straw-man arguments about fear of "government" intervention in the population crisis are tiresome.
It's NOT a national crisis, it's a GLOBAL crisis.
Even so, a purposefully emasculated United Nations couldn't deal with it.
What's needed is the concentrated co-ordination of the largest philanthropic groups in the world. The Gates Foundation efforts to eradicate malaria are laudable, but malaria is not the key crisis facing humanity. I'm sure Bill Gates wants to be well-thought of, and who could argue with eradicating malaria?
We need a combination of Ted Turner's boldness, George Soros' sagacity and commitment to democratic values, and the courage for every nation to face up to the crisis and make it THE key priority.
In terms of real impact on the problems facing humanity any other intervention programs, as they say, are well-meaning but misguided efforts to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

It's ABOUT FUCKIN' TIME, somebody talked about this TABOO! Pardon my swearing. I'm sick of everyone, especially on TV complaining like fucking morons, about: "the gas prices are too high", "there is no water in Africa", people are homeless in "China".

Take a look around where you live, if there is no food or housing, DON'T FUCK WITHOUT CONTRACEPTIVES. There is too many of us fuckers, look up "cockroaches" and "rats". Humans are animals after all, and we do breed like them. Stop multiplying, ya sick fucks.

Lets call it eugenics!

el_chivo,
"Doing better" was meant as....for the most part there are, as Saladin has said, better agricultural practices, better medicines, etc.
Not all parts of poorer nations are going to fall in that catagory.
Saladin is right in that population has grown exponentially.
However, one cholera outbreak, one smallpox outbreak, has the potential to wipe out thousands.
not to mention the lethal poisons man has created just because he can.
Pnuemonic plague also has the potential to wipe out hundreds of thousands.
When people live under conditions that are rampant in refugee camps, one disease can and will kill many.
Perhaps the population will not be controlled by nature, but it will be amazing if it isn't.

wow, now I'm gay and an environmentalist all at the same time!

put the dick down

How does one decide who is allowed to reproduce and who isn't? Any attempt at controlling reproduction *inevitably* results in a need to distinguish the worthy from the unworthy: this is the basis for the pseudo-science known as Eugenics, and it is also the bedrock of the Nazi principle known as "life unworthy of life" which led to the extermination of millions of people. Before the holocaust, America and a handful of other western nations praised Adolf for his eugenics program, which was based closely on the American program of forced sterilisation (a policy largely buried in the history books, but it existed once and even in the 60's the American government was secretly sterilising Native American women in order to reduce their population). That's the nature of eugenics.

Talk of "overpopulation" always puts a chill down my spine. A society built on eugenics is my greatest fear, and frankly I'd rather risk the ravages of a dying earth than waste my years subjected to the tyranny of a 'Brave New World'.

This is a subject best kept silent for now, but studied and planned for when desperate times force the majority of the population to realize that regulations on birth rate may not be a bad idea. Otherwise this will present options that people are not ready to accept socially.

Right now it's just not that bad in this country to worry about, granted that can change very quickly. But in other parts of the world, unchecked population growth is the root of so much untold and unnecessary suffering (whether by limited resources or legislation).

The smart ass in me would like to see a standard set for breeders (or voters for that matter). Just a look at your life, what you've done for the last 10 years, whacha gonna do, and an IQ test. If you're to stupid to balance a checkbook then you have no business breeding......

Ok, really, I'm not that crazy

ok unimatrix u first

There is enough land and for all as well as food---it's greed that causes problems, not population.

To actually try and KILL off the already living population to try and bring on some kind of "control" is UNTHINKABLE, but some countries will go to that extent. I hope it never gets to that in the United States.

Government population regulation is wrong and a serious threat to civil liberties. Our planet is a resilient one and I'm sure it will come through this just fine, but we should keep an eye out.

I think 1 is too many. Like many have stated, think about the millions of orphans out there! ADOPT, why not? Be that parent they never knew. Show them that this world isn't all fucked.

Another solution, legalize euthanasia (right to die). If someone felt like offing themselves one day they could stroll down to the local "retirement home" and get a one way intravenous ticket to where ever they think they're going. Much better than a friend opening the door to your dangling feet, or the jumpers (onlookers don't seem to have a problem with it shouting JUMP and what not). Less paperwork right? One less person that didn't want to be here any way.

This one should already be in effect.
Automatic death penalty for every rapist, child molester, sex offender, THE REAL SHIT BAGS.
Why keep these fuckers alive? How does a child rapist get parole? HELLO, I don't care if they reformed. They harmed a child. That should require no questioning.

anyone who has more than 1 child in todays day and age is a complete moron who's been living under a rock.

I feel that our global population will have to balance it self out in our lifetime... How it happens... I guess we'll find out... We should all be as healthy as possible now because IF shit does hit the fan you better be one of the "fittest" .

It's not the number of kids you have - it's the resources they consume. Generally speaking, a New York couple with two kids will use more resources and energy than a Panamanian family of six. Families deep in the Amazon with dozens of kids don't go through multiple cell phones a year.

2 the top for me. I don’t care you’re rich, no more than 2. People need to stop thinking in short terms, like keep making cars that doesn’t pollute but made even more tons of waste in the making. We got to start thinking more deep into the future, earth doesn’t going to change overnight, and even if we change our way of living, this planet can’t sustain so many people!

If we don’t stop growing, eventually nature is going to find a way to start reducing that weight upon her.

This is a sacred cow! Probably all the religions of the earth save buddhism will vehemently fight against any kind of mandated birth control; therefore, it will never happen. The only other options are, starvation, plauge and war; possibly and measure of all three shaken not stirred. I would not be surprised at some point, the powers that be will be driven to unleash some sort of 1918 influenza that they and their families can be inoculated against. As Ripley said in Aliens, as they were about to go to a safe orbit and nuke the planet, "It's the only way to be sure."

i have bred only once and got fixed, easier for me than her. but i'm not too worried about the overpop' issue
since we are REALY due for a pandemic. between human nature, the population density & ease of international travel it should make 1918 look like a dry run. it will so suck for those left, but it should give the earth a breather.

isn't perspective good?

feckin malthusians

So a few things here caught my attention. First while there is a possible problem with overpopulation that possibility lies in our current standards of production of resources and its fair distribution. While I agree that there are literally millions suffering in 3rd world countries around the world I am not convinced that it is due to lack of resource rather it is due to poor and insufficient distribution based on greed and prejudice. If we stopped allowing countries to shut off or contaminate the water of those down stream of them with pesticides from antiquated farming techniques and made available new more cost effective and environmentally sound agricultural productions using Vertical Farming Architecture, this and many other types of fundamental changes to our production and an understanding that helping others attain this helps us all will remove many population problems we are currently facing. However this does not remove the cold mathematical fact that eventually our species will out grow this planet, that is why we must always be improving our ability to produce without taxing the planet (whether it be Earth or another) any more than is necessary. Now the improving of lives in 3rd world countries will also lower birth rates, if you releave the threat of the loss of half of ones children on a regular basis then the desire to over bread is significantly reduced. Also the empowerment of women ie. feminism is to me the single greatest movement to keep women from having too many babies. Now hear me out, the more educated a woman is and the more a career is available to them the less likely she is to be getting pregnant early or with more children than she can raise and still maintain her profession. Also I think that while limiting how many children can be produced through personal pregnancy, ie. not adopted, has validity it should be taken into consideration that psychologists believe it is healthier to grow up in a household that has one to two siblings than it is to grow up in a single child home as the children with siblings tend to be more empathetic to others as adults and more socially adaptable. Any way thats my two cents, great debate, just remember that while the obvious may be population control there are better ways to manage our resources the problem is our current management is no longer feasible.

It is falling into the trap of the Zero Sum Game that makes it evil. Since the problem is thinking of the Earth as a closed system with only finite resources that makes so intractable.

With that kind of thinking, people never would have left Europe and never would've developed the means to improve ways of using the resources more efficiently.

The obvious solution that has been proposed many times is to open the box and provide other means to replenish the resources and release the pressure of the population expansion to other places beside the Earth.

The technology exists if it going to be used to solve the problem.

People will argue that it is a basic human right to have as many kids as you want. But as an evolved sentient species, we have the responsibility to realize are impact on the world around us, and if population grown is a problem then it needs to be addressed. People wont like it but its something that everybody needs to talk and think about. We need to come together as a global community or country, and discuss the impact of population growth.

This is why we have aids, the bird flu and small pox. Nature tries to regulate itself, and will.

Humans have no common sense. Corporate takeover and power plays are the elephant in the room.

i think that the growing population is no big deal and if we all are eco-friendly we can be better. and with there being 3rd and 2nd world some people can only ride bikes and other stuff. therefor only 1st world countries can effect the envirment, and only a few million people cant effect the enviroment. the enviroment recycles itself and everything evetually decomposes and people and things all come from the same place; the planet. and things that come from you dont effect like foreign bodies the earth is the same way. and i respect the planet and i dont believe we should disrespect it but we shouldnt believe its all our fault.

what about the impact on future human rights ??
i have to say. the present human race is leaving
little hope for their human rights

This is a "DUH'" no kidding issue- it is THE inescapable all encompassing "drive us over the cliff" factor of the last 100 years. Global warming has nothing on it. Lower the global population by 1% a year and migration becomes barely plausible and barely economically sustainable-(perhaps)---if the population continues to grow unchecked,....well, then we are all fraked no matter how benign and adaptive Gaea proves to be. The particulars can be resolved later---right now----HIT THE FRAKIN BRAKES-or at least down gear, try not to skid out,...stay in some semblance of controll.

population growth is not an elephant in the room, population growth is constantly used as evidence of human impact on the environment

perhaps curbing population is a topic that no one talks about but that's because it's not a big issue in countries that have strong environmentalist groups. Asia and Africa account for most the population growth in the last 30 years. What's Greenpeace going to do, tell Kenya not to grow it's population after hundreds of years of population decline due to European slave trading and colonialism?

We all will die one day and so will our descendants. If our population is left unchecked the worst thing that will happen is everyone will die anyway. I suppose it might be a more terrible death, but still - everyone dies.

That is why the only kid I'll ever have is my adopted PUPPY.

IT'S MADE OF PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe that Humanity is headed for a final war beginning with energy sources, then water/food and finally every beast for themselves. The earth will either be destroyed completely or left with little life. Here is a good link to Wiki listing national birth rates compiled from the UN and CIA fact book. Overwhelmingly the highest rates are in Africa and the subsahara and decreasing roughly in proportion to a countries industrialization/technological advancement. Just looking at human nature I doubt that any voluntary or social pressure will lead people to stop having boatloads of kids.

The reason it's a taboo is because it's a fucking evil subject.

No matter how you look at it, evil comes out of this equation.

The easy answer would be to just replace your parents at the most right now, but obviously if it were that easy it would have been done already.

What needs to happen is a collective human understanding that life is NOT a gift, it's a responsibility that has to be taken care of. If we want to have more children, we NEED to be able to provide them with, AT THE MINIMUM, food, water, shelter and safety.

And that's the bare bones there. If we want to think about how we want everyone to live as least close to how the United States does, then we need to recognize what the costs and limits of that request are based on infrastructure possibilities.

Basically, we need to be aware that we are ANIMALS. The first and MOST IMPORTANT thing is that we are able to SURVIVE, both short term and long term.

That's kind of a fucked up way of thinking because you have to coldly set aside the beauty of human life. But the alternative is that hundreds of thousands of people starve or otherwise horrifically die because we can't provide for one another.

The Nazi's found a solution to this "problem" and so did the Chinese. Perhaps the best way to answer this perplexing question is to ask "is overpopulation really a problem like we've been instructed it is?" It is proclaimed that there are food shortages, yet find it OK to transform our fields of corn to feed people into fields of corn to feed our cars. We developed an idea that if we dump our surpluses of food into the ocean we can curb the "man made" global warming problem.

I'd wish that people would realize this call for population control is actually a call for destruction.

What is the real motive behind population control? Maybe it was discovered that a large population of people is difficult to govern - and this issue has nothing to do with saving the earth as it has to do with the domination of the people who live on it.

So people, rally around your Earth, scream about how it needs saving, and don't complain when the government decides to round you up - because there will be no one who will think about saving you.

Eventually we will have to put a cap somewhere. The lady that has 17 kids and a tv show to prove it needs to be slapped. The one w/ 15 as well.

"What do we do about the population problem? How do we address the problem without infringing on human rights? Perhaps more to the point, is it a human right to have as many kids as you please?"

These are great questions, and ones that have no easy answers. Part of the problem, and the reason this is such a controversial topic is because it is intertwined with many different religious beliefs. Too many faiths are of the belief that you should not use birth control, but these rules were created back when there was no population problem. I think we need to get with the times people! Education is key!

I personally choose not to have any children in order to do my part to help the population problem. Sometimes it hurts me to know that I am sacrificing a basic human 'right', but it's all I know how to do. I love children, and I do not believe we can assign a certain number of children each person can have. I just wish that every breeder out there would live by this one simple idea: Do not have more children than you can afford to feed, clothe, teach and love.

Maybe if we all remembered that we are ALL responsible for the next generation, whether we are parents or not, then no child would ever go hungry, or unloved...

Here is a quote from a mother of a large family that always cracked me up:
"I wouldn't take a million dollars for any of my kids, but I wouldn't give a nickel for another one"

You should only be allowed to have as many kids as you can financially support. Once the government has to step in and pay for things like Child Action and WIC and food stamps because you can't support your own offspring, you should be cut off. No more kids if you can't afford them... That way the government can spend that money on more important things (in theory.)

YOU ARE ALL MAD!!!!

every singly one of you. You are all insane psychopats and you need you head examined.

"One of These Days, Alice. Bang! Zoom! Straight to the Moon!"

One solution would be space colonization. If governments would focus less on war and war machines, the abundance of money and materials would be more than significant.

There are countries, and I believe France is one of them, that are seeing a drop in population, and are now wondering who will pay the bills as the population shrinks.
The main reason third world countries have so many children is because their death rate is so high. But even with that, they are now better taken care of than they were 100 years ago, and more of their children are making it to adulthood.
Of course, now there is man-made genocide being performed in those countries, so it probably remains pretty much the same.
As populations grow and an area becomes over-populated, a disease will come along and thin it out.
Mother Nature is pretty harsh.
As to how many kids are enough and should all of society be made to live with the extra food needed, pollution added, etc. I'm glad I will never have to be anywhere near if/when that decision is ever considered.

understand some basic principles here,
right now, were dealing with exponential population growth...look it up...
until we surpass the carrying capacity we will be on the rise, its natural.

Human rights and "freedom" does not mean the right to be a stupid idiot and bring more, relatively-worthless-to-the-future-of-humanity idiots into the world...although at this point in time apparently it does.

(facepalm)

Some people are obviously much more responsible and useful human beings than others, and there are serious limits (we allegedly already passed awhile back) about what the planet can comfortably sustain, so letting the breeders run wild and cause more problems for society as a whole is one of those things that I just don't understand.

I would say 2 kids is reasonable, and you should be well-prepared and meet certain requirements before having them if you ask me.