Green | November 12, 2011 | 65 comments

Keystone XL delay unlikely to stall big oil companies-"Alberta Clipper" already pumps tarsands here

source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/keystone-delay-unlikely-to-stall-big-oil-comp...

Image
JanforGore
With the Keystone XL pipeline on hold, the giant companies tapping Canada’s oil sands will turn to Plan B — existing pipelines to the United States.

Those pipelines, which now carry slightly more than 1 million barrels a day from Canada’s oil sands to the United States, can be expanded by adding pumping stations. Some companies, notably Enbridge, already have plans to boost the capacity of their lines and speed the journey of crude from Alberta to Texas.

.“It’s inevitable that it will get here. This oil will have to find a market,” said Fadel Gheit, oil analyst with Oppenheimer & Co. “All these competing pipelines are going to rethink their strategy.”

That would disappoint foes of the Keystone XL pipeline, who hope that the delay or defeat of the project would impede the growth in output from the oil sands, whose exploitation releases 5 to 15 percent more greenhouse gases than the average crude used in the United States.

Asked what the Keystone delay would mean for oil sands development, a spokesman for Chevron, which owns 20 percent of one of the oil sands projects, said: “The Keystone decision has no implications for Chevron.”

The Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers forecasts that oil sands output will nearly double from 1.5 million barrels a day in 2010 to 2.9 million barrels a day by 2020. Proponents of the Keystone XL pipeline warned that a rejection of the project would lead to exports to China via a pipeline to Canada’s west coast, or shipments to the United States using barges, trucks and railroads, thus creating a larger carbon footprint.

Many Canadians prefer a pipeline to be built from Alberta to eastern Canada, which still imports oil from Saudi Arabia.

But oil analysts said Friday that existing pipelines to the United States offer the easiest and most likely fallback plans.

Enbridge is a likely choice for oil companies seeking additional pipeline space over the next two or three years. The company’s 1,000-mile long Alberta Clipper line, which went into operation last year, goes from Hardesty, Alberta, to Superior, Wis., and has an initial capacity of 450,000 barrels a day. But it can be pushed up to 800,000 barrels a day, the company says. That alone would make up for half of the capacity Keystone XL would have added.

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65 comments // Keystone XL delay unlikely to stall big oil companies-"Alberta Clipper" already pumps tarsands here

  • Wetdog
    • +2
      Wetdog  

    • --------" With the Keystone XL pipeline on hold, the giant companies tapping Canada’s oil sands will turn to Plan B — existing pipelines to the United States.

      Those pipelines, which now carry slightly more than 1 million barrels a day from Canada’s oil sands to the United States, can be expanded by adding pumping stations"----------

      There is no reason to try to extract oil from the tar sands of Alberta---OR---to ship it to the US if it can't be sold.

      Oil from Alberta tar sands is VERY expensive to extract. It is also very viscous, thick, like pancake syrup that has been setting in the refrigerator overnight----this makes it hard and expensive to move by pipeline, it has to be heated to be pumped.

      If everyone who opposed Keystone, and tar sands oil would get a flex fuel car and use E85(85% ethanol)-----the price of oil would go down. The more the price of oil goes down, the less attractive strip mining tar sands and pumping it 3,000 miles becomes.

      Flex fuel cars running on E85 produce 70% less pollution than the same car running on petroleum. Not only that---petroleum produced from tar sands produces 250% MORE pollution during production than regular petroleum.

      A car driving on E85 will produce over 8 TIMES less pollution than a car driving on oil produced from tar sands as a rough estimate.

      1 million barrels of oil per day is less than 5% of US consumption. If we reformulate our gasoline to E20(20% ethanol)----we eliminate the need for more oil than 2 Keystone pipelines. Any car can use E20, it has been done in Europe for over 80 years. The only gasoline anyone can buy in Brazil is 25% ethanol.

      If you don't want oil from tar sands shipped into the US---don't use oil.

    • 7 months ago
  • letsliveinpeace
  • letsliveinpeace
  • letsliveinpeace
  • JanforGore
    • +5
      JanforGore  

    • To get back on the topic of the article regarding that oil companies will now look to up capacity of this sludge through existing tarsands pipelines in the US, we need to stop any attempt to add new pumping stations to these existing pipelines to increase tarsands capacity and we need to cripple the investors and large banks underwriting the companies buying stakes in this. We need to call on the people of Canada and other countries where these banks are located to do the same. This "delay" is not a victory as long as the tarsands continue to flow and destroy our environment! And if we can’t stop it, then I think that is a true confession that the addiction has gone way too far and feel good campaigns aren’t going to be enough at this point. However, don't fall for the rhetoric of those who work in that industry who want to blame it ALL on the people. They are the ones who for decades have done nothing but work to stop renewable energy from making it to the fore to force us to have no choices and who now work to control it all in order to greenwash it while downplaying its potential.

      That is why we also need a financial transactions tax that will go a long way in pushing investors to think more sustainably with their investments and in working to look more at longterm growth rather than short term profit at the expense of our environment which affects every aspect of our lives from health to food and water/climate policy. Also, a price on carbon (revenue neutral) must be levied by the U.S Congress within the next two years and any monies collected either from that and or a financial transaction tax should be used to speed up the transition away from fossil fuels and to also instill more sustainable agricultural policies in our country. Also, we need to change the market mechanism that prices fossil fuels without an emphasis on indirect costs. Those who pollute our planet while daring to take NO accountability for it must start to feel the pinch financially. They have gotten away with their crimes against this planet and future generations long enough.

    • 7 months ago
  • queenofit
    • +2
      queenofit  
    • JanforGore:

      Regarding the "financial transactions tax, adding price on carbon and changing the market mechanism that prices fossil fuels....all of these are dependent upon having a strong political system in place that is not ruled by oil conglomerates? I really have a hard time seeing anyone out there to lead us in this direction? I want to, and I will support candidates who don't roll over for the corporations. But, just take the leading contenders in the GOP lineup, they are all corporation sockpuppets, and honestly, Obama is also. He leads the way in largest amount of corporate donations (bribes) of all the other put together. Where does that leave us?

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/05/us-politico-obama-bp-idUSTRE64420A2010...

    • 7 months ago
  • queenofit
    • +2
      queenofit  
    • queenofit:

      Here is one guy who could help our cause!

      Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) delivered a 23-minute stemwinder last week on the failure of the U.S. Senate to act on global warming pollution. Here’s the remarkably blunt opening:

      Mr. President, I am here to speak about what is currently an unpopular topic in this town. It has become no longer politically correct in certain circles in Washington to speak about climate change or carbon pollution or how carbon pollution is causing our climate to change.

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
    • +2
      JanforGore  
    • queenofit:

      Yes, I admit it sounds pie in the sky considering what and who we have to work with, but the OWS movement has given me hope that we can make it happen. The next question is however, will it be in time for our planet and us? I really want to believe it too so I will continue to let those in the positions to put it forth know how I feel. I think there is already a bill in Congress about the financial transaction tax (?) so if environmental groups can stand outside the White House against XL, this should be the next step- to stop the tarsands completely and hold oil companies accountable. We can't drop the ball now.

      We also have to start seriously boycotting oil companies and cutting our consumption. I have actually gotten my consumption of plastic down about 70% in the last few years as well as not taking airplanes, carpooling, taking mass transit and mostly walking where I have to go unless it is a longer distance. And that all helps, but we must have the carbon taxes and the laws to make a diffrerence. Another thing is to support those companies that are truly sustainable and are not just greenwashing to save their soiled reputations. Those companies should be punished not rewarded for their environmental damage.

      And I know about Obama as well as the GOP. I'm done with them all to be honest. And I don't care if people want to "scold" me for that. Obama just lost my vote with this and especially allowing BP to drill again as well as Shell in the Arctic. I'd rather write in Thomas Jefferson. I mean this entire campaign is one big joke and farce so why should I care? It also would appear that those of us who truly care about the environment and about killing innocent people in other countries just to grab their resources are wrong with a larger portion of the Obama supporters as well. And that too is something many need to realize. The fact the Democrats have NO ONE willing to take Obama and the GOP on in a primary and really change things speaks volumes to me about this system. We won't change anything unless we change this system all the way around along with our perceptions and priorities... tall order for the human species I know. But standing up against the banks and the system and then voting for someone profiting from it and supporting it (which this dealy actually is as well) doesn't seem like progress to me. So believe me I understand where you're coming from and it can seem overwhelming. I guess having faith and not giving up on humanity is really what we have to work with now.

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
  • queenofit
    • +1
      queenofit  
    • JanforGore:

      I am with you Jan, I would rather leave my box blank than choose from the corporate mini plate we are going to be offered up. This ridiculous (so called) debate process is no better than the staged reality shows on tv these days, it is all so 'made for tv', and well planned to maintain the corporate status quo. I was googling for something else this morning and ran across this video, (just HAPPENS to be on RT tv) however, I couldn't find it anywhere else. Notice the date November 8th 2008, just days after election of Obama. Nader is spot on. What does this have to do with this thread, it is everything. We keep repeating the same scenario and expecting that our idea of change will just magically transform. It has be a different way, and yes, of course, I have high hopes for OWS, somehow, I don't think we can ever fit the jeannie back in the bottle, but will it be enough to change our corrupt government in time. Maybe or maybe not. We need a candidate who represents us, who is honest and loyal to average America.

      Nader: Obama will be no better than Bush, (dated - November 8th, 2008)

    • 7 months ago
  • queenofit
    • +1
      queenofit  
    • JanforGore:

      So, after giving you my political response, here is my spiritual one as well....(yin/yang)

      Another beautiful quote from Joanne Macy interview with Krista Tippet in March 2011

      "The biggest gift you can give is to be absolutely present, and when you're worrying about whether you're hopeful or hopeless or pessimistic or optimistic, who cares? The main thing is that you're showing up, that you're here and that you're finding ever more capacity to love this world because it will not be healed without that. That was what is going to unleash our intelligence and our ingenuity and our solidarity for the healing of our world.

      So that is what keeps me going, Krista. So the great turning is a revolution that is underway, the transition to a life-sustaining society, that this is sprouting up in countless ways, new ways of holding the land, new ways of generating energy, new ways of producing food, some of them very old ways that we are going back to, wisdom of the ancestors and of the indigenous people often, new ways of measuring prosperity and wealth, new ways of handling differences through nonviolent communication, through restorative circles instead of outside the dominant punitive penal system now. There's a tremendous energy…"

      Jan, she said all that, before OWS, I wonder how she feels since OWS? I bet she is feeling the love! oxox

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
    • +4
      JanforGore  
    • Image

    • http://www.cansia.ca/

      Support solar energy in Canada. Make the tarsands irrelevant.

      "Who we are: CanSIA is a national trade association that represents approximately 650 solar energy companies throughout Canada. Since 1992, CanSIA has worked to develop a strong, efficient, ethical and professional Canadian solar energy industry with capacity to provide innovative solar energy solutions and to play a major role in the global transition to a sustainable, clean-energy future.

      Click Image for SOLutions
      What we see: By 2025, solar energy is widely deployed throughout Canada, having already achieved market competitiveness that removes the need for government incentives, and is recognized as an established component of Canada’s energy mix. The solar industry will be supporting more than 35,000 jobs in the economy and displacing 15 to 31 million tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions per year, providing a safer, cleaner environment for generations to come."

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
  • queenofit
    • +4
      queenofit  
    • Image

    • After reading this news I happened, by chance upon this interview (which I cut and pasted the snippet and poem from) this morning while out walking my dog. I had saved it on my ipod. I may have posted this here before, as it speaks volumes about this type of situation, one which is happening way to often. I especially like the way Joanne Macy compares a sick mother who is dying of cancer to the environmental problems today. And, I like the poem by Rilke.

      The following clip is taken from On Being Krista Tippit, here recent interview with Joanne Macy http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2011/wild-love-for-world/
      (from Krista Tippit, ON Being show in March 2011)

      Ms. Tippett: Mm-hmm. But — but we — yeah, but we get overwhelmed by the facts and the figures and the pictures. They are debilitating, they're paralyzing. As you say, it's also that we don't really know how to dwell with grief and turn it into something else. But I think about that a lot as a journalist, as somebody who works in media.

      Ms. Macy: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. It's a double-edged sword, isn't it? Because you want to portray. I mean, say you're taking care of your mother and she's dying of cancer and you can't — you won't — say I can't go in her house or in her room because I don't want to look at her. But if you love her, you want to be with her. If — if we love our world, we're able to see the scum of oil spreading across the Gulf. We're able to see what it's doing to the wetlands and the marshes, what it's doing to the dolphins and the gulls. When you love something, your love doesn't say, "Well, too bad my kid has leukemia, so I won't go near her." It's just the opposite.

      Ms. Tippett: What is empowering on this? Like, I mean — and I wonder if Rilke comes to mind again, of how he was very clear about darkness as a part of life.

      Ms. Macy: Yes. There's a poem that has been — it's a sonnet and the very last Sonnet to Orpheus that has entered my bloodstream that has helped me a great deal in this time. I will say it.

      Quiet friend who has come so far,
      feel how your breathing makes more space around you.
      Let this darkness be a bell tower
      and you the bell. And as you ring,

      what batters you becomes your strength.
      Move back and forth into the change.
      What is it like, this intensity of pain?
      If the drink is bitter, turn yourself to wine.

      In this uncontainable night,
      be the mystery at the crossroads of your senses,
      the meaning discovered there.

      And if the world shall cease to hear you,
      say to the silent earth: I flow.
      And to the rushing water speak, I am.

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
    • +3
      JanforGore  
    • queenofit:

      That was beautiful and so fitting. And it surely does corrolate to how we treat this Earth in comparison to those we love. Ashame so many really do not get this because money gets in the way.

    • 7 months ago
  • queenofit
    • +3
      queenofit  
    • JanforGore:

      Here is a little more of her interview, this is addressing the discomfort we get when we look at the destruction, and Joanna Macy offers her answers to this. I do understand how overwhelming this gets, but, as you continue your work, I see how you (Jan) embody her philosophy and I hope to do the same...

      "Ms. Macy: Or not to hold on to it so much as to not be afraid of it because that grief, if you are afraid of it and pave it over, clamp down, you shut down. And the kind of apathy and closed-down denial, our difficulty in looking at what we're doing to our world stems not from callous indifference or ignorance so much as it stems from fear of pain. That was a big learning for me as I was organizing around nuclear power and around at the time of Three Mile Island catastrophe and around Chernobyl.

      Then as I saw it, it relates to everything. It relates to what's in our food and it relates to the clear-cuts of our forests. It relates to the contamination of our rivers and oceans. So that became actually perhaps the most pivotal point in, I don't know, the landscape of my life, that dance with despair, to see how we are called to not run from the discomfort and not run from the grief or the feelings of outrage or even fear and that, if we can be fearless, to be with our pain, it turns. It doesn't stay static. It only doesn't change if we refuse to look at it. But when we look at it, when we take it in our hands, when we can just be with it and keep breathing, then it turns. It turns to reveal its other face, and the other face of our pain for the world is our love for the world, our absolutely inseparable connectedness with all life."

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
  • coolplanet
    • +1
      coolplanet  
    • JanforGore:

      While I tend to agree that feeding the run-of-the-mill dittoheads is a waste of time and can ruin a thread (their goal), sometimes it's a learning experience to understand where they're coming from and what motivates them.

      For instance, I just discovered a new tactic their "think" tanks came up with: Use clips from our countercultural icons to make their case. Wow the guy who thought that up must have made him a pretty penny!

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
  • coolplanet
  • JanforGore
  • Alberta_oilman
  • coolplanet
  • JanforGore
  • JanforGore
    • +1
      JanforGore  

    • Well, it is obvious that in this video Obama was just CAMPAIGNING.

      This is for all those, sockpuppets and those who are not who seem to think that after watching this that ANY EXCUSE to DEFEND THIS is legitimate. You will not get any debate on this from me. Just be aware that your own conscience should haunt you for putting MONEY and GREED and your own desperation before humanity, stewardship, vision, decency, logic and reason. Destroying entire ecosystems in order for you to claim a "check" when there are better, cleaner, healthier ways to do it is INSANE and IMMORAL. I hope you have a good speech ready when your children ask you years from now why you supported this insanity and addiction as the world 's environment and climate balance tips.Those willing to sacrifice the only planet we have to live on for such a FALSE CHOICE can have no other motive but greed. It is time to move into the 21st century and regardless of what those who suck the oil tit say for their own selfish reasons, WE CAN AND ARE DOING IT. There is no price you can place on our water, our air and our land. Without them, you not only do not have a job, you do not have a PLANET.

      OUR CHILDREN DESERVE BETTER and so does our planet and I WILL FIGHT YOU TO PRESERVE IT.

    • 7 months ago
  • Alberta_oilman
  • Anonmaly
    • +3
      Anonmaly  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      They could grow industrial hemp, or work in one of the MYRIADS of fields legal production & manufacturing of industrial hemp could bring to the U.S...... (as for your precious job creation)

      Oh wait Big Oil has enough interests to be yet another group maintaining it's prohibition....

      There are enough ways to produce fuel from biomass, to algae, to all kinds of shit... But big-oil owns the infrastructure... And has no problem murdering people, and going on about their day... Hell BP wasn't ever charged for the 11 deaths they caused due to negligence in the Gulf were they?

      What about that pipeline in northern Afghanistan part of that war was REALLY about... Didn't that pipeline (or isn't it going to) cut down on a bunch of effort getting oil to that sea over there that borders Israel, those Arab countries, and even Italy...?

      Big oil loves a war....

      Cards are already stacked in the favor of the oil cartels, now I know you're not Saudi so you don't want to be counted, but that's what the oil companies are cartels equally if not more dangerous than any drug cartel...

      Just go on buying out the governments and pretending we don't know you're playing with a loaded deck...

      All that-supply and demand and the assertion that there aren't better, safer, cheaper ways.... Is a steaming pile of horseshit and we know it...

    • 7 months ago
  • squarethecircle
    • +1
      squarethecircle  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      what a cop out...there is nothing I can do either that supports my family though I have tons of experience and multiple skill sets, there are no jobs and if the only one was raping everybody's home so I could sleep in one with my family, I'd live in a tent or a cave. We struggle every day to educate , clothe, house and feed our family, but we do not add to your BS vision of where and why. If we don't each hold ourselves accountable who else should? Your individual choice allows this all to persist just as much as our governments inability to act in the best interest of humanity. I am certain Weisel knew he should report the dangers at Fukushima, but didn't....he wanted to keep his job...now one choice has inflicted catastrophe on Japan and us all for many years to come. WE ARE ALL RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS...make them right for all our sake.

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
  • Alberta_oilman
  • Alberta_oilman
  • squarethecircle
    • +1
      squarethecircle  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      not due to my choice I have no other and am very aware what petroleum I purchase and consume. I have gotten my consumption of gas down to $20 for 2 weeks, no airplanes for years and years and I stay away from Wal-Mart like the plague. I have and will use as little as I can and will also point out to others that the only reason we have no choice is due to a few people's greed..same thing happened to cotton and by the same few. We have had the technology to operate without carbon fuels and without nuclear for some time but it is kept from us along with many other things, such as history, by the few making money off their systems. These "people" are not going to offer another choice til they have control of that first and by no means will they be working for the interests of humans, it will all be for control and profit. It is up to each of us to act through right action...ask Gandhi....they are his words.

    • 7 months ago
  • coolplanet
  • Alberta_oilman
  • Alberta_oilman
  • coolplanet
    • +1
      coolplanet  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      "My people" have been conserving energy since the Carter administration.
      Many of us live off the grid, using solar and wind (my family has for 20 years).
      For 10 years I lived without electricity or a car -- the happiest years of my life.
      Ever since we turn out lights upon leaving a room, consolidate trips avoiding rush hour, keep the heat at 64 degrees in the winter and 80 in the summer, and have planted hundreds if trees to offset our carbon footprint.
      So what are YOU doing to prevent a climate meltdown?

    • 7 months ago
  • Alberta_oilman
  • JanforGore
    • +3
      JanforGore  
    • coolplanet:

      Of course, nothing. Hypocrites and oil trolls only want to engage in arguments to divert from their own lack of caring. They blame us when it damn well is the collusion of banks with corporations, governments and the media that are not only not being forthright about the true progress of certain energy sources, but their work behind the scenes to keep them from the public as well as financing huge PR campaigns to lie to us about climate change. Then to try to assuage their own guilt they go on about how "Suncor" is into wind energy to Greenwash the huge amount of damage they are doing which far outweighs any amount of windmills they can make. I have NO respect for GREENWASHERS, phonies or oil trolls because I do walk the talk. Those who ask us what we are doing while they continue to support this insanity when they don't have to as well are laughable.

      http://www.thestar.com/business/article/911071--oilsands-giant-suncor-fined-for-...

      http://ooshew.com/oil-giant-suncor-fined-275000/

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
    • +1
      JanforGore  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      "I work in Suncor's wind power division"

      Oh my, first you post above "the earth doesn't care" and now you expect us to believe YOU DO. You are full of it. I personally don't give a damn what you do or SAY you do, the tarsands are still destroying this planet. Your attempt to troll in this thread and divert from that is obvious. You are just another GREENWASHER.

    • 7 months ago
  • squarethecircle
    • 0
      squarethecircle  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      you seem to agree with most of it...I have a couple points I'd like to talk further on though. The myth that alternative technologies would cost more is simply a hollow wall to hide behind and continue to justify our incorrect approach to everything and/or anything we do. We need to renew our need and vision of use for the collective resources we chose to separate out of the Earth much like we would a cancer in a human. If we start to live with the laws of nature and not against them perhaps we will find even more simple and productive ways to coexist and thrive. This simple change of perspective applied to the needs of life would change society....resources dedicated to people looking after each other and moving forward in pursuit of happiness and knowledge, understanding that we are all in it together and through mutual respect for one another's own perspective we can all prosper beyond our imagination.

      As for sacrifice I believe a great many people are already feeling sacrifice and many are more grounded now than before. We are indentured servants at best and slaves if not...choice is hard to find these days and if you do it is one....people are starting to realize the truth and when enough do things will change.

    • 7 months ago
  • Alberta_oilman
  • squarethecircle
    • 0
      squarethecircle  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      but to keep our collective head in that frame of mind is not beneficial to change in a positive direction and many are starting to realize that. Tesla developed low cost free energy that he just wanted to give to humanity. What's the cost of construction and maintenance to people if they didn't have the need for that bill or concern ever again? Would that take so much of our collective resources to accomplish and would someone need to be monetarily rewarded forever? JP Morgan thought so, but that need not be the case. Couldn't we through people that truly care find the best way to satisfy everyone's needs without imposing on and desecrating the beauty around us? Earth is our home and everything else we need as well if we take care. We can think beyond the box shielding us from ourselves...sometimes a mirror is the best place to start. Things need to change, we know it and know how to fix it...we just need enough people to see they do too.

    • 7 months ago
  • Alberta_oilman
  • JanforGore
    • 0
      JanforGore  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      Right, and you will still not take moral responsibility for your own actions however, and report to work at the tarsands bright and early today. That is, if you are actually not lying here. In my book that voids ANYTHING else you have to say here. Just like most of those who want to bamboozle people into thinking they actually give a damn for anything but themselves.Your own actions prove otherwise so don't think to come here preaching at me or anyone else for dismissing anything which doesn't conform exactly. The tarsands do not CONFORM TO ANYTHING that is sustainable for this planet and no amount of your platitudes here to try to unguilt yourself from your part in it will change that.

    • 7 months ago
  • squarethecircle
    • 0
      squarethecircle  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      I have to start by saying thank you as well...i have not had many conversations that allowed for discussion in depth here. You are either right or wrong and there is no in between. I do agree with much of what you say in your last comment, but Capitalism lost it's positive momentum when Wal-Mart ruled the day and mediocre made the most money. It has never been the way nor will be any grounded in finance. Consumerism is an affliction that is unsustainable and unreal all together. I hope it doesn't take drama to cause realization, but it my be at this point of lies ruling perception, the only affective way to snap people back to important and not. The few that decide for us now do a terrible job and I can't trust anyone that want's to show me the way for their intention is already compromised to begin with in their own need, as evidenced by the hybrids...which expend more energy in their construction than the energy used driving a Land Rover for the next 16yrs and if you drive fast you will get worse mileage than a BMW M3. This is not a choice but more a band-aid and we buy it as going green. We are misled at every turn yet we still know what we should be doing...that gives me hope if nothing else. People can break out of this rut we've tolerated being driven to, but it is going to take a change of the guard as well as that of awakened consciousness for there to be any positive momentum to a sustainable future for humanity. The perspectives combined is what will make us strong if we can respect and include them all.

    • 7 months ago
  • Alberta_oilman
  • Wetdog
    • 0
      Wetdog  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      I take it you were not around during the Civil Rights, and Anti-War movements of the 60s & 70s.

      There was killing and rioting going on. Literally.

      All I can think of is, you ain't seen nuthin' yet if you think it is bad now.

      This is just the opening round.

    • 7 months ago
  • Alberta_oilman
  • Wetdog
    • 0
      Wetdog  
    • Alberta_oilman:

      In general, I have to agree with you there. And that is the direction that things will go if the course continues on the "I'm going to take anything and everything I can and to hell with anyone else." direction.

      When push comes to shove---inevitably there is a shove back. Once the shoving starts, then the fistfights, then.....................

      I think you are an uncommonly wise man. I'd like to talk with you more, unfortunately I do not have the time right now. Send me a PM and I'll give you my email----perhaps we could share ideas sometime. I think there are things that can be done that would help. Mostly keep the problem in focus and don't be sidetracked into ideological smokescreens.

    • 7 months ago
  • squarethecircle
  • GENERALNATTY
  • squarethecircle
    • +1
      squarethecircle  

    • the flow from Tarsands is already spilling it's way to the Gulf, which is already polluted by continual oil coming from the substructure at it's bottom. Is there any concern? It's only going to be exported anyway

    • 7 months ago
  • squarethecircle
  • coolplanet
    • +4
      coolplanet  

    • Somehow this reminds me of my junkie friends.
      They say that they need it for their pain.
      But the opiates are the cause of their disability.
      So now finding their daily fix has become a full time job.

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
    • +2
      JanforGore  
    • coolplanet:

      "The Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers forecasts that oil sands output will nearly double from 1.5 million barrels a day in 2010 to 2.9 million barrels a day by 2020."

      Five years which was the IEA assessment for irreversible dangerous climate change lands us in 2016. So you are correct. This is the behavior of addicts looking for any way to get their fix.

    • 7 months ago
  • coolplanet
    • +1
      coolplanet  
    • JanforGore:

      Have you ever had the misfortune to witness a junkie go cold turkey?
      Imagine a billion air-conditioned people out of power for weeks, let alone months!
      This is the fear driving them.

    • 7 months ago
  • artemis6
  • JanforGore
  • squarethecircle
  • JanforGore
    • +3
      JanforGore  

    • And don't get me wrong, protesting against XL was the right thing to do.... only, it isn't just about a piece of pipe. We need to STOP the tarsands as a whole. And one way to do that is through stopping the investments in it by those banks in the 1%. Pulling out your money from banks that underwrite the tarsands and boycotting companies that have stakes in it is one way we can all tell Obama and all "leaders" of governments that "delaying" a pipeline is not the same as standing on principle to stop this. It still goes on. I read a post on Twitter where Bill McKibben asked what should be next. Really? I should think that would be obvious.
      STOP THE TARSANDS.

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
    • +5
      JanforGore  

    • "Enbridge is a likely choice for oil companies seeking additional pipeline space over the next two or three years. The company’s 1,000-mile long Alberta Clipper line, which went into operation last year, goes from Hardesty, Alberta, to Superior, Wis., and has an initial capacity of 450,000 barrels a day. But it can be pushed up to 800,000 barrels a day, the company says. That alone would make up for half of the capacity Keystone XL would have added."
      ~~~
      Did this administration already know this before they made their "decision?"
      And let's say the capacity is increased. Is the pipeline able to take it and would we then see a spill into the Great Lakes? Also, if more pumping stations are added and capacity is increased at this pipeline how is the XL delay a victory? The only victory is stopping the tarsands from being extracted in the first place! Rerouting XL is absolutely unacceptable and it looks like the oil companies have already found a way to make the failing of the XL pipeline being built not even an issue now.

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
    • +5
      JanforGore  

    • So we've been importing this carbon intensive bitumen cr** into the US for over a year already. So why weren't there sit ins over the Alberta Clipper like we saw regarding the Keystone XL? And there is already a Keystone pipeline that runs to Illinois. HOW MANY DO WE NEED?

      http://www.npr.org/2011/11/04/142029366/map-transcanadas-keystone-pipeline

      The IEA just reported that we really only have five years left before we will reach irreversible dangerous climate change. So Keystone XL pipeline or not, we have already come close to reaching the tipping point. Therefore, we also need to be holding this administration accountable for all of the other bows it has made to big oil already and it’s complete failure to lead on this crisis. Saying the words climate change in a speech just does not cut it.

      BP, the very company that killed the Gulf (which no one speaks about anymore as people and marinelife continue to suffer the fallout) has been given the greenlight to drill there again (insanity). And Shell which has toxified the Niger Delta will be allowed to now drill in one of the last pristine places on Earth-the Arctic. Where is the outrage about any of this? And while no one else mentions any of this in the MSM, the latest excursion into Libya will also see BP and Shell now seeking contracts to burn their oil as well. And we paid for that.

      So the reality of this is unless we work for a paradigm shift in perception we will not stop until the last drop of oil is drilled and sucked out of this planet. And by then it will be too late. The monetary/market and political structures that deceive the public enmasse regarding fossil fuels and price plus their indirect costs and externalities and the cost of the destruction and disease they cause as well as social and political upheaval must be toppled. And that then comes down to some very hard choices not based on party. Which is why I support the OWS movement to hold them all accountable.

      But I foresee us only getting really serious about this on an individual or any other level when we are truly looking back at ourselves in the abyss. For all of our protesting there is still one elusive factor in all of this: human nature and the affect greed has on it. Figure out how to conquer that and this is a piece of cake.

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
    • +4
      JanforGore  

    • http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Resources/2009/08/21/US-approves-Alberta...
      No wonder they could "delay" Keystone XL... they already approved this one!

      "WASHINGTON, Aug. 21 (UPI) -- The U.S. State Department issued a permit Thursday to Enbridge Energy Corp. to build a 326-mile pipeline from Canadian oil sands fields to refineries in the United States.

      The Alberta Clipper pipeline -- which will run through Minnesota and the northeast corner of North Dakota from Superior, Wis., to Hardisty, Alberta -- will carry up to 450,000 barrels of crude oil a day. Enbridge currently moves 1.6 million barrels daily through an existing pipeline along the same route.

      The State Department, in announcing the green light for the project, highlighted its economic advantages.

      "Approval of the permit sends a positive economic signal, in a difficult economic period, about the future reliability and availability of a portion of United States' energy imports, and in the immediate term, this shovel-ready project will provide construction jobs for workers in the United States," the State Department statement said.

      Because it crosses the U.S.-Canadian border, the Alberta Clipper project required a Presidential Permit from the State Department for the project to proceed, involving an environmental review "under applicable environmental laws and regulations," according to the State Department.

      Environmental groups on both sides of the border have opposed the plan. Tar sand oil needs more energy to process and is high in carbon dioxide, they contend. Mining the oil from tar sands has also been responsible for scarred landscapes and polluted waters in northern Alberta, opponents say, and it damages the environment for native tribes in Canada.

      On the processing end in the United States, refineries would be working with high levels of toxic chemicals, including mercury, nickel and lead contained in the tar sand oil. Environmentalists also said the pipeline will harm wetlands in Minnesota and Wisconsin.

      "The tar sands pipeline connects U.S. refiners and consumers with the dirtiest, most carbon-intensive crude oil on earth," said Kevin Reuther, legal director for the Minnesota Center for Environmental Advocacy, the Financial Times reports.

      An international coalition of environmental and native groups said they would challenge the permit in court to "make sure that all the impacts of this pipeline are considered."

      However, the State Department said in its statement, "the United States is taking unprecedented steps at home to transform how we produce and consume energy. The president is committed to reducing overall emissions and leading the global transition to a low-carbon economy."

      The reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, the statement said, is "best addressed through each country's robust domestic policies and a strong international agreement." The State Department said it "will continue to work to ensure" that both the United States and Canada "take ambitious action to address climate change."

      "By approving this pipeline, we are committing to another generation of dependence not only on fossil fuels but on the dirtiest, most greenhouse-gas-emitting fossil fuels," said Sarah Burt, an attorney for Earthjustice, The Washington Post reported. "We thought that the Obama administration would walk the walk on this, but it appears that that's not happening."

      Read more: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Resources/2009/08/21/US-approves-Alberta...

    • 7 months ago
  • JanforGore
  • JanforGore
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