Isn't It a Pity - We've forgotten Who we are!

You have free will, you can watch porn and call it "freedom of expression" or "emotional enlightenment," 'cause it's all relative, isn't it?

Was it implied that it was?

thats right and just because america is the biggest scam on earth....a kleptocracy in a plutonomie ruled by nepotism!

Our nation was not founded on Christianity. This is a cultural myth, see my above post.

Most of the founding fathers were professed Christians, and it Did influence their sense of moral justice in framing the constitution, contrary to your denial about Christianity being part and parcel from which this nation is based.

Yes, many of the founders were Christians. However, aside from "do onto others.." there is little morality in the Bible that would have any impact on the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. If you have some other example, I would be curious to learn about it.

In fact, as I mentioned above, both Jefferson and Madison (the two most influential framers), were strict seperationists for different reasons. Jefferson, as he was concerned with religion having an undue influence on politics and Madison for the converse reason. Even Madison, a devout Christian, realized that entanglement of the state and religion would have adverse effects on religious freedom, as government endorsement of one religion over others could create many of the same problems that lead many of the original colonists to flee the Church of England.

Additionally, it is worth noting that recently Texas, after deeming Jefferson "not Christian enough", has attempted to remove him from their school text books, which due to their influence on the overall national textbook market would effectively write Jefferson out of history. I think this provides a perfect example of the dangers of state entanglement with religion. Religion, worship and prayer all have a place in the human experience, but they should be in outside state influence.

Your points are excellent and well made. . . they are well taken.

thank you

with liberty and justice for some.

Just because you cant smoke weed? not because we steal our wealth from other countries?

i haven't smoked weed in a looong time.

i'm talking about hemp. hemp industrial hemp;
i want to be an american hemp farmer.

Finally, someone who gets it.

Billy may be old, but he isn't blind. .

All? surely you jest.

Thanks

Exactly.
Modern conservatism is Nostalgia blended with Paranoia.
They look to the past with rose colored glasses,
and look to the future with gloom and doom.

A very good question, and a tricky one at that. . . I define an absolute (in the context that I believe is being implied in this post) as what one instinctively knows to be morally right or wrong, and not subjective to relative or situational ethics, but is guided by an honest higher conscience. . . but then, are our morals one and the same, and how are they grounded by our realities and lives experiences? I think collectively there must be a consensus that defines those values that define those absolutes. . . such as 'time'(an absolute).

There are no absolutes with morality, it always varies from person to person, culture to culture, era to era, and situation to situation.

The only moral instincts are empathy and altruism, and not everyone feels them in the same way. Take for example a vegetarian who has empathy for every single animal, or a tribal cannibal who has none for members of tribes other than his own.

There is no consensus, and if anything, time shows how those morals change. Think about the short timespan of this one country. We kept blacks as slaves, women as hardly more than slaves, and killed native americans en masse to clear land. All of those were considered perfectly fine and acceptable behavior- only a few "bleeding hearts" would have a problem with those issues.

Look at marriage rights issues. Before 1967, it was immoral and illegal for blacks and whites to get married. After the laws changed to make it legal, culture changed to make it acceptable. Now you would never find a politician speak out against mixed-race marriage. Just ten years ago, you could not find any politician in favor of same-sex marriage, while now it's rapidly swinging in favor.

Even the strongest moral instinct- the Maternal Instinct, varies. abortion, adoption, child abuse, Chinese peasants who kill newborns because they are girls- no universal absolutes to it at all.

With a view apparently as secular as yours, it is no wonder that society and it's distorted values are in the crapper.

With a view as blocked by faith as yours, no wonder you view the world's values as distorted and in the crapper. You think that human rights is a bad thing.

And I notices you could not argue against, or even address my points. That's because not only am I right, you know I'm right.

Religion is the ultimate blinder to any instinctual ethics humans have. Religion tells people it's OK to commit mass murder as long as it's in the name of their God.

Instead, us secular folk have this concept called "Human Rights". We even decided to base this country on it when us secular folk founded it more than 200 years ago.

We realized that religiously-based morality is arbitrary, and that's why it's doomed to failure.

Ethics based on key principles and sound reasoning works much better.

Who preaches hate, intolerance and ignorance? You must be referring to Islam, and btw, that is they, not we!

QED

It is.

Really?
Since you don't preach intolerance, I'm glad to hear you are in favor of same sex marriage.
Since you don't preach ignorance, I'm glad to hear you are in favor of teaching evolution in science classes.

Absolutely. It's astounding to me when folks call Christians' differences of opinion "hate", yet turn a blind eye to real hate. I've NEVER been in a Christian church or listened to a Christian preacher who used hate speech.

But just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you hate. It just means you have a difference of opinion.

Simply not believing in something is not hate.
Forcing other people to live according to your beliefs IS hate.
Denying other people their equal rights is not simply a diference of opinion.

Then you have not been in very many churches- or you don't know hate speech when you hear it.

Point out where same sex marriage or teaching of evolution has been stated or inferred in this topic. . . other than by your interjection.

I pity any who attend a church where you've concluded that is the norm.

Thankfully you've not attended Jeremiah Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, you'd probably have got more than a earful there.

Why do you preach hate, intolerance, racism and ignorance?

On this website, comments are not always directly under the post you are commenting on.

You need to be more specific.

So d I, and sadly, that IS the norm.
The right-wing of Christianity has overwhelmed the left wing in this country, so hatred has become commonplace. There are a whole lot more Southern Baptists than Episcopalians.

That is a perception and opinion which secularist hold to be true, however imho it is nothing more than the usual progressive secularist ploy of degradation by defamation.

So I'm glad to hear you are in favor of same-sex marriage rights, and have no desire to teach Creationism in science classes.

And you definitely disagree with Sarah Palin: you don't think this country's laws should be based on the Bible.

Yeah, us secularists just invented Sarah Palin as a ploy to make you guys look bad.
We also invented Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Oral Roberts too.

Wright's vitriol is well documented outside of Fox News, are you a member and an apologist for Jeremiah hateful rhetoric?

Here's a tid-bit about the wing-nut J. Wright that "pastored" B.O. plenty for many years. . .
Prez Tried to Kill Me, Ex-Pastor Says
Remember Jeremiah Wright, Barack Obama's wacky ex-pastor? He is now accusing the president of attempted homicide, the Associated Press reports:

"No one in the Obama administration will respond to me, listen to me, talk to me or read anything that I write to them. I am 'toxic' in terms of the Obama administration," Wright wrote the president of Africa 6000 International earlier this year.

"I am 'radioactive,' Sir. When Obama threw me under the bus, he threw me under the bus literally!"

. . . more here:http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hvXWDx2mUgT1jpjTNnQNnIhISX8QD9FP4JR80

. . . And just how do you know high heaven stinks? If you're unable/unwilling to consider the content that addresses the moral relative subjectivism that society blindly embraces today, how can you say it is "crap" and have credence that gives weight to your "opinion?"

Heh, I'm sure you have, without a doubt. . . good luck with the polar opposite.

I find that a religion that has the most impact is one that recognizes and adheres to the universe "cause and effect" and conveys that constant without fail whether embellished or not.

Exactly right zichi, Graham is a reincarnaited idot to lazy to work on his own life and America never really found out who it is, so how in the world could they forget who they are!

The problem is the content has been considered, analyzed, and rejected.
"Moral relative subjectivism" is not something that "society blindly embraces today".

It is all that there has ever been. The myth of absolute morality is crap, and has no credence.

So then are you a Hindu?
You certainly can't be a Christian.
The chain of causality is a key component of Hinduism, it's called Karma.
It gets a slight nod in the bible (cast bread upon the waters, do unto others) but the key component of Christianity is Faith, not Works, so no causality.

If you ACTUALLY wanted Causality with no embellishments, you would abandon religion altogether in favor of science. All Causality, no Mythology.

No, he said "stinks TO high heaven". I've always assumed that meant the stink went only to the lower border of high heaven and not actually into high heaven itself. I'd also assume that a place like high heaven smells pretty nice. Finally, I'd also assume that anyone with a brain knows this story is not news and in fact, is crap and DOES stink to high heaven.

Surely you're not blind? You don't see our national laws subverted daily? . . and why are the they being subverted or ignored? . . imho it is because of the equivalence of moral relativity being subjective to the whims of a decadent and self ingratiating society wherein the end justifies the means. . . ethics be damned.

. . . and you think that the existence of a legal system has prevented itself from perversion? Heh, . . it's very essence today is nothing less than ethical relativism - on steroids.

You mean like. . . "What’s right for you may not be what’s right for me?". . . naw - how could I possible understand ethical relativism?
“‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways” (Isaiah 55:8).

He's a 90+ y.o. heterosexual, good luck with that. . .

He's a right-wing televangelist.
From that alone the chances are quite high he loves Rentboy.com.

Just how do you assume that as a probability?

Ah, I see, you see the fallibility of some evangelists as examples of immorality?
I see it for what it is - weakness and seeking self gratification giving birth to immoral behavior .
Should I therefore throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Let's not forget the examples of sex scandals with the progressive secularist leaders within our government that are Christians in name only (because it is politically expedient to exact a broader vote base). . . yeah, such fine examples of moral clarity and values they are. . . yes, it's all relative, isn't it?

I see them as examples of hypocrisy.

If a right-wing fundamentalist preacher spends his entire carrier attacking gays, and espousing that gays chose to be gay and can chose to be straight, and that same man is caught with a male prostitute, that's hypocrisy.

If a left-wing politician who has made no claims one way or the other about marital fidelity has an affair, that's not.

And being that your views of morality are entirely politically motivated, I'm not surprised you don't get that.

We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values.
We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.
We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare..
We have killed our unborn and called it choice.
We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.
We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self esteem.
We have abused power and called it politics...
We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition..
We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.
We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.

. . . so, am I to assume that you disagree, and you believe that everything is copacetic. . . and that patriotism is pass`e?

I don't disagree with everything you say, in fact I would say about half of it is enlightening. But I find the transparency of your post amusing, it is brimming with religious propaganda and clumsily uses Nationalism as a cover.

Nope, you've got a wrong take there c_d, although a Christian, I'm anything but "religious."
It is a bit of irony though, that it took a famous American evangelist to identify the disease that is eating away at the character of this nation in a few simple yet concise sentences. . . don't ya think?

No, I don't think it's ironic because it is not relevant. What is ironic is your statement : 'although a Christian, I'm anything but "religious." '

What is relevant is the subject when compared to it's content. The headline of the title is "Isn't It a Pity - We've forgotten Who we are!"
Who is "We"?
If "We" is supposed to mean all of the United States citizens, than he has surely made a mistake because "We" do not all share these values nor have "We" all exercised them in the past.
Welfare, abortion, profanity, porn, spirituality and the obedience of children are not on the top of my list of "Prioritized To Do's."
This list has the familiar feeling of having political and religious agenda supporting it. It suggests that there is something wrong with America as opposed to the past and shows these concerns as the primary reason for the downfall of American society.
These are clearly Christian ideals, not mine (and many others I would presume).

Yes, you do presume, as do I. . .

Every word of this is true. What have we come to? Every form of perversion is now considered fine, with no limits on anyone. The end always justifies the means.....

The intended focus here (at least that was/is the intent) is value and patriotism. . . something that seems to skip right off the top of many, quite possibly because progressive society today cannot seem to differentiate right from wrong, because to them it is just relative subjectivism.