The Veil Debate

This is just another example of feminism in overdrive. Social, religious or whatever reason someone might have why can't you just leave it up to the individual to decide what they want to wear?

An interesting pod, thankyou

What is astonishing about the hijab is that women who do not have the excuse of being impoverished, illiterate and deprived of knowledge of progress in the outside world, should rally to the defence of patriarchy. Next time you don your hijab, remember that many women would give their right arm (and maybe some literally have) to enjoy some of the freedoms you take for granted. In countries like Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia state violence against an entire section of the population is justified in the name of religion.

The best way forward to help these women would be to take off the hijab to show the world a modern example of woman-hood that is not shackled by religious dictates by self-appointed leaders who are not only brutalising women, but entire populations in the name of religion and anti-imperialism.

The problem for Muslim feminists is how to be a Muslim and a feminist at the same time, without completely undermining the validity of Islam.

Apart from a few individuals such as Taslima Nasrin, few feminists are outspoken enough to question the relevance of the Koran on the issue of gender. She believed the Koran to be out-dated and therefore unacceptable as a guide to treatment of women in today's society.

We have all been socially conditioned from a young age to believe that religion cannot be questioned, and one would think Cambridge educated professionals would be able to understand this themselves without having to be told.

This is an example of Western Liberalism gone to the extreme, which actually allows groups such as Jews and Muslims the freedom to continue with archaic practices, during a period of gigantic leaps in scientific knowledge and then complains when such liberties are taken to extremes.

Is it me or is Nazfin wearing more make-up now she is wearing the hijab then in the photo of the pre-hijab days?

Muslims don’t want to discuss sex or sexuality that why anything sexual must be covered up. And it’s always woman’s sexuality that the problem; men are never at fault.

secular Muslim women are the key to global peace: 30th March 2009 www.cineforum.co.uk

Excellent debate for sure. I certainly believe women should feel plenty empowered to remove the veil. Then again I fully respect the notion that wearing the veil is in honor of the Lord as a form of dedication. It's like fasting, I don't believe it's necessary, but the idea of giving something up for selflessness or to proudly declare your faith (like a yamacah, SP sry!) or for any form of religious meditation or practice is certainly an honorable lesson we should ass respect, and if it's our way, aspire to do the same.

We as a global society should recognize that as diverse as beliefs around the world are, that different symbols translate to different messages in different places. As long as no one's human rights are being trampled, I say live and let be.

Dear BM_Pixie,

Thanks for your interesting comments. I don’t agree with you. I don’t want to get into the nitty gritty of interpreting words and concepts from ancient Arabic as I know from past and vast experience that we will just not agree. Suffice to say, I have examined all verses in the Quran and numerous Hadith that relate to women’s dress and there is in fact nothing definitively talking about head covering. Every time new anthropological evidence emerges about dress in 7th century Arabia, I revisit the passages and try to understand further. I would recommend Monghia Souihi, a professor of theology at the University de Zituna in Tunis, who has made it her life’s work to study the evolution of the hijab.

My own theology and my understanding of the role of the Prophet and the Quran in guiding my behaviour are private things. I’m quite comfortable with my own relationship with God and these understandings and I have no interest in imposing them on others. I’m not interested in others imposing their theology or interpretation of the Quran/Hadith on me.

Conversely, what I am exploring in this film is whether the hijab (as a concept and not as a particular garment) is indeed a practice that has repercussions in the temporal world as it were – to what degree is it symbolic of how we view gender roles and capacities? Does it have a negative impact on the advancement on women?

These issues are separate to theology, to me. I understand that to many people, it is not separate to theology, to many women, they veil only because God told them to. That’s cool. Your belief in that does not offend me. I just hope that my belief that it is not ordained by God and that in fact it does have negative repercussions in society, doesn’t offend you.

Why do so many western Muslims claim it’s part of their religion? Why do so many Iranian women rebel against it at the risk of their lives? These are questions that continues to intrigue me and I will continue to explore them.

Thanks, Jobeda

One thing your documentary WAS very good at pointing out, was that the hijab is about controlling a woman's sexuality and that this puts the whole stressor and responsibility on a woman for a man's desire. This is half true, but one thing you were missing was man's hijab, and unfortunately, alot of Islamic culture is as well(not the beautiful deen itself) is that the other half of the responsibility lies in the men's hijab, the most important part being the lowering of the gaze. A Muslim man shouldn't even be looking at me for any other purpose than recognition. As soon as he sees my khimar and jilbab his eyes should be anywhere but on my person. We are allowed to speak Islamically, if the purpose is honorable and not out of desire or enticement. Muslim men who are honoring THEIR hijab the same way I am mine, have an equal responsibility if either of us to do anything shameful. One reason you might see more women impassioned and informed about their hijabs in the West than in the "traditionally Islamic" countries is because of increased knowledge in the West about EVERYTHING hijab pertains FOR EVERY ONE INDIVIDUAL REGARDLESS OF SEX, and lost knowledge in the so-called Islamic countries.

What needs to be done is to start stressing men's hijab MORE. Hijab is a job for both sexes. No wonder it get's seen a discriminatory, when only one party is doing all the work. That's be like my husband cooking dinner, and me not offering to help do the dishes. Yeah, I wear the hijab (khimar) in my household, but it is my habibi who does the cooking. My man does his part, and covers what I consider his "sexy" abbs when he goes swimming, by covering them with clothing, out of respect for himself. He also doesn't want to be seen as a sex-object, or object of desire. We both know hijab increases the success of the desire between us into where it is most healthy to have it: a respectful marriage of mutual attraction and responsibilities. I feel more secure than any of my non-muslim girlfriends knowing my husband avoids being alone with other women, and doesn't look at them unless he's got an honorable reason to. That's what Islam is about. Respect. Modesty. Obedience to Alllah S.W.T and faith that Our Creator knows what is best for us. I just gotta be patient with all those fools (women that check out my husband and Muslim men who have no clue that they should be wearing their hijabs too). Patient enough to teach them.

Love for all my sisters out there in Islam patiently rocking their hijabs, teaching the muslim boys and the non-muslims that hijab is more than headscarf, and it is anything BUT demeaning.

-Alix aka Pixie

I mentioned above that part of Islam is trusting that Allah SWT knows what is best for us, and it is submitting to His judgment even if we don't think we agree. If Allah SWT has commanded something that we don't understand or don't like, we shouldn't reject that thing. Instead, we should try to seek its wisdom for ourselves and to change our own minds.

Now, the testimony of faith that we make to become Muslims, or when we assume adult status in the deen, has two parts: laa ilaha ill'Allah and Muhammadan rasul Allah. The first of these, none has the right to be worshiped except Allah, is a statement of our belief that Allah SWT is ruler of all, judge of all, all-knowing, all-powerful. It is He who must be obeyed, and obedience to anybody else is merely conditional and must not be done if they ask us to disobey Allah SWT. And Allah SWT has given us everything we have, our existence, our life, our capabilities, our goodness. If He took any of it away, there is no power that could help us get it back. And we could never repay Him to match what He has given us, or even begin to. However, in his infinite mercy, Allah SWT asks of us only that we obey Him. Isn't it the least that we can do for Him after all that He has done for us?

There is also the second testimony, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. The Prophet (sAas) would not be a messenger if he did not come with a message. And his message is the Quran. We are really also testifying that the Quran is a message from Allah SWT, and therefore, obedience to Allah SWT entails obedience to the Quran, because it is His word.

The Quran also tells us to obey the Prophet (sAas) as well as Allah SWT (see for example Surah an-Nisa ayah 59). It tells us that if we have faith we will take the Prophet (sAas) as the judge of any dispute (Surah an-Nisa ayah 65). It tells us that when both Allah SWT and the Prophet (sAas) have decided a matter it is not for a Muslim or Muslimah to have any further say in that matter (Surah al-Ahzab ayah 36). It tells us that what the Prophet (sAas) has given us, we should take and what he has prohibited to us, we should refrain from (Surah al-Hashr ayah 7). And it tells us that the Prophet (sAas) has been sent not just to deliver the Quran but also to explain it (Surah an-Nahl ayah 44).

So having stated, that, one of the most basic precepts of Islam is that the Qu'ran is perfect, and the actions of the Messenger of Allah S.W.T were guided by God, so the Qu'ran and the Messenger have the final ruling. And both firmly state that khimar (the only hijab your documentary addressed) are here to stay, and good for women kind. THAT ALONE is why Muslim women (as Muslims, not to be confused with so-called Islamic culture) wear hijab. As a woman who grew up not wearng hijab, I have seen the good in it, except from Muslim men who are not aware of their own hijab.

The khimar is the headress (which is commanded in the hijab to be worn, and worn a certain way), the jilbab (which is commanded to be worn when going out in the Qu'ran) is the modest overgarment/and or modest clothing depending on how one interprets the meaning of the original arabic, and the niqab is the face covering i.e veil (documented in the Qu'ran as a commandment for the wives of the Prophet S.AW, may Allah S.W.T be pleased with them).

Hijab is ACTUALLY a word that stands for more than just a piece of cloth. It stands for modest decorum in public, encompassing clothes, and behaviour, as well as intention. Men have a hijab as well, in the form of clothing, and how they are supposed to behave in front of women they are not related to. They also have a dress code based on the sunnah of the Prophet Mohammed S.A.W if they wish to follow it, deciding that they grow their beard, put henna in it, wear clothes typical of that time period, have their garments not drag on the ground, not wear silk, or gold, or certain colours, and wear kohl in their eye rims, ect... The Qu'ran and ahadith document, specify, and explain. I will come back to a man's hijab shortly as it is one of the most important issues I think your documentary was trying for but failed to come up with.

The Arabic word islam simply means "surrender (to Allah)". The essence of our religion is this surrender or submission (TO GOD/THE ONE CREATOR--- and not to any man). It requires trust on our part. Trust that Allah SWT will be there for us, trust that He knows what is best for us. Submission to Allah SWT requires that we put Him before ourselves. That we put our desires second to His desire for us. That we acknowledge that He knows better than we do what is right for us. Sometimes the things He asks of us are difficult to do, either because it seems too much to ask, or because it seems pointless or out of date. In times like this, submission becomes a struggle. One point made in your video was that hijab itself was modern in its time in that it liberated women. Since women now have their liberation to work, and vote, and lead men in certain aspects of daily life, it seems the hijab has outgrown its original use but the Qu'ran says it was for all peoples and for all times, and that Allah S.W.T has perfected for us our religion the time that the Qu'ran was revealed. As a Muslim, and in order to become a Muslim, one must believe there is no God but Allah, and that Mohammed is His messenger, and that pertains to belief in the Qu'ran as the perfection of religion.

I WILL BE POSTING THIS IN A FEW PARTS I THINK CUZ THERE IS A 4000 Character Cap
As salaam alaykom ramatullah wa barakato:

One of the reasons I wear khimar (and jilbab) but not niqab (I believe jilbab and khimar are fard and face covering mustahaab and in the least to be the sunnah of the Prophet S.A.W's wives) is because the Qu'ran tells us to [Surah an-Nur ayah 31 says: Wa qul li al-mu'minat yaghdudna min absarihinna wa yahfazna furujahunna wa laa yubdina zenatahunna illa maa zahara min haa wal-yadribna bi khumurihinna ala juyubihinna; wa laa yubdina zenatahunna illa li bu'ulatihinna aw aba'ihinna aw aba'i bu'ulatihinna aw abna'ihinna aw abna'i bu'ulatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw bani ikhwanihinna aw bani akhawatihinna aw nisa'ihinna aw maa malakat aymanu hunna aw at-tabi'ina ghayri ulu'l-irbat min ar-rijal aw at-tifl alladhina lam yazharu ala awrat an-nisa wa laa yadribna bi arjulihinna li yu'lama maa yukhfina min zenatahinna. Wa tubu ilaAllahi jami'an, ayyuha al-mu'minun la'allakum tuflihun... And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful], and ahadith document how it was all worn, and what actions encompass the decorum of a believing woman and man. As a Muslim I trust in Allah S.W.T and follow His will, as revealed by the Qu'ran and authentically documented ahadith. The hijab you are talking about is the clothing a woman is to wear. We must elaborate on this in case people are confused as to the meaning of what hijab itself is.

Jobeda I'm not directing anger at anyone here, I'm merely expressing a response to what I'm seeing and hearing here. Your words (I'm assuming they're yours?):

"But by wearing the hijab, they actually do a disservice to women in the Muslim world, for whom one of the effects of wearing the hijab is to be denied equality and freedom" and those of a similar nature are what prompted my comment that Muslim women are being reduced to a piece of cloth. The assumption that hijab is the cause of Muslim women's problems, when there is absolutely nothing to support that. I didn't mean that you personally reduce me as an individual to a piece of cloth (!).

What I am disagreeing with here is the way hijab (which is an Islamic commandment) is being equated with oppression of women (which is anti-Islamic). It's such an old argument, and it is the cause of the continued stereotyping of hijabed women - that we are all oppressed and don't have freedom and what have you. And it panders to the silly notion of less clothing = more freedom. It assumes that hijab is a problem for Muslim women, when for most of us it is not. My comments are also partly addressed towards the non-Muslim audience who are watching this video, reading the comments, and perhaps with very little knowledge of Muslim women are making the usual assumptions, and not just towards you personally.

The Cineforum looks like an interesting intiative, I'll definitely check it out.

Peace.

Hayah, I’m sorry honey, you’re doing it again. You are projecting all of your own inner angst on me and my work – how have I reduced you to a piece of cloth when I have spent months debating and producing a film and discussing the issue with a diversity of Muslim women in two countries? I have done no such thing, you have an inner script that maybe needs altering about the way you are perceived in society. I have no animosity or prejudice or pity towards you, that is your own projection. To me, you are a complex transnational individual just like me. If you really need to direct your anger at someone, trust me, it’s not me. I understand you, I’m trying to have a chat with you, but you keep wanting to project your own world-view on me. The work that I am doing in both this film and other stuff is making hijabi women much more visible in society. I’m on your side, girlfriend!

I understand that as Muslim women in the media eye, we have a responsibility to not pander to the sensationalising of Muslim issues, especially something like the veil, which has become a sexy subject. But this also needs to be balanced with my own personal interests, which includes the hijab, it’s something that is important to me and I’m not going to let the mainstream shut me up about it, even indirectly. There’s only so far I can let trends in society dictate what I should and should not debate. It also seems that you and I have different experiences: I do have lots of conversations about the hijab with Muslim women, including those at the top levels of government and civil society, it’s very topical for us, and is not related to the ‘conversations’ about the hijab that happen in the Daily Mail.

Please view another video I made about Muslim Women role models here: www.cineforum.co.uk, it may be more to your liking. You may also find if you reread what I wrote, that some of what you may have found objectionable is actually framed as questions. My opinions are not fixed and I don’t have all the answers, I’m trying to find some, with the help of other Muslim women. If you want to be involved in that process please do email me through www.fairknowledge.co.uk and I’d be happy to have you involved in the Muslim women’s Cineforum which is part of the London International Documentary Festival. We are screening films about Muslim women, having speakers and workshops and arts exhibitions – I am keen to have Muslim women from across the spectrum involved and you will see that many hijabi women are already engaged in the process. The last thing I want to do is alienate hijab wearing women – who would I have to argue with otherwise? ;-)

J

Jobeda, apologies for sounding rude, I hope you understand why I am sick and tired of people constantly talking about the 'problems' with hijab. And instead of actually addressing any of the points I made, you resort to making condescending remarks about my age?

I am not only responding to the video, but to the comments you've written here as well. Maybe, I am sick and tired when people keep reducing Muslim women to a piece of cloth, as if that is what really bothers us in life.

And maybe, just maybe, I was surprised that you as a Muslim woman, failed to portray the issue fairly. Sure you asked a handful of women their opinions (um, some who couldn't even communicate that well in English), but at the end of the day, the remarks you made about their opinons are what I take issue with. You say that you don't speak for Muslim women, but have you not considered that to a Western audience, you as a Muslim woman, will sound a lot more 'credible' to them than a non-Muslim? That you, as a Muslim woman who is anti-hijab, present the palatable and more acceptable side of Islam to a Western audience?

In all honesty the supposed 'veil debate' is a non-issue with the Muslim women I know. It seems to be the West that is fixated on it, and films like this only feed this obsession. They don't answer questions, they just make people think 'look at those poor veiled women, they don't really know what they're talking about do they?'

Hi Hayah,

Thanks for your comments, but why are you so angry at me? I never claimed to be speaking for you Hayah. This style of film is called an authored piece, it’s a popular, engaging and effective style of documentary filmmaking. As the filmmaker, I’m only speaking for myself and to balance this, I interviewed many women who thought differently to me. If I did truly have a lack of respect for you as you suggest, I would have made a film demonising the hijab and attributing all of society’s ills to it. I don’t want to make such films – I’d rather hear what people with different perspectives have to say so that my own influences are diverse rather than coming from just one rigid dogma with no scope for flexibility.

When you make statements such as “How are you any better”, “Had you actually bothered to really listen” you are just attacking me – why? I’m here listening to you Hayah, I want to have this debate, I am open to being persuaded by you and I hope that you are open to being persuaded by me, that’s all a debate is, but you are unlikely to persuade me while you are on the attack.

I feel that you are quite young, so with respect, I’ll give you some advice – don’t make the mistake of thinking that just because someone doesn’t accept your position, that they don’t understand it. You will never win an argument that way. Nasfim and I do not accept each other’s world views and we will probably debate things for ever, but we are friends because we nonetheless understand and respect each other.

Funny thing is, yours is the first vitriolic comment and it's almost making me think that it might be quite fun to make a truly anti-hijab film. Would you like to collaborate with me on this? It would challenge you. We'd see all the catty hijabis come out of the woodwork then, we'd be quite famous! Come on, it'll be a hoot.

Jobeda

Your comments about the girls who wear hijab and tight jeans – well shock, horror, has it ever occurred to you, that maybe they are being influenced by people who keep telling them that in order to be ‘Western’ and ‘free’ they must cover less?

And again you fall into the same trap of saying that hijab means women can’t participate fully in public life. How sad. So now in order for us to be considered full members of society we must reveal our bodies? Yet again, IF you’d bothered to do your research, you’d know that throughout history and during modern times, veiled women participated fully in society. Google women like Muna AbuSulayman, Merve Kavakci, Ruqaya Al-Ghasara, Sofia Baig, Heba Kotb, Asmaa Abdol-Hamid, Shada Nasser, Nadia Al-Saqqaf and countless other women who are successful (and believe it or not, wear hijab!). That’s not to speak of the many women in Islamic history like Fatima (daughter of our Prophet), Ayesha bint Abu Bakr, Zaynab bint Sulayman and others, who lead armies in battle, let alone the huge contributions they made to Islamic scholarship. The problem is not the hijab, the problem is not Islam, or even traditional interpretations of it, the problem is with men who twist Islam to suit themselves, just as has been done throughout history the world over. Islam teaches women to wear hijab, just as it teaches her she has a right to education, just as is teaches her that her property and money is her own, just that is teaches her that she is accountable to God like any man is, just as it teaches her that is she was created beautiful as she is.

As a hijab wearing Muslim woman, born, raised and educated in the UK, it is my choice to wear the hijab. It is my choice to follow the teachings of my religion, and I am proud of that. Just as I choose to pray and fast. You claim you want to “change social customs and attitudes”, well no thanks, I for one am happy with them as they are. I don’t need any self-styled feminist playing the role of Western saviour for the poor veiled Muslim woman telling me what to do.

Jobeda, I must say I found this video to be extremely narrow-minded and presumptuous. Your latest comment attests to the fact that, when we ‘Western liberal women’ tell you that actually, it is our CHOICE to wear the hijab, you still feel the need to tell people that actually, it isn’t. So at the end of the day, this just shows the lack of respect you have for us and our opinions. You do not speak for me, you do not represent me. You claim that hijab makes women invisible, and then you are the one who pays no heed to what we say!

How insulting. How are you any better than those who assume a veiled woman is oppressed and has low-self esteem?

What you have done here is devalued the struggles of so many of us who wear hijab. The struggle to not be pitied by the likes of you or any other person who is inexplicably attached to the notion that covering up = oppression. We are tired and sick of being spoken for. The woman who wears hijab in the West is a strong woman. We have to deal with racist remarks, people who assume we can’t speak English, we have our rights violated, we are looked upon with pity, we are often subject to racist attacks because we are visibly Muslim. Does the woman who withstands this sound weak to you? Does she sound invisible to you?

I don’t need to have my body on view for me to be visible. The strength of my character makes me stand out. That is what you and so many other people fail to understand. My body is my own business. I don’t need to expose myself in order for people (read: men) to pay attention to me. You are so quick to point out how hijab is supposedly harmful to society, yet you conveniently forget that how in the West, women are often treated like sex objects and their bodies are used to sell everything from cars to chocolate bars. There’s no denying that working women are pressured into looking and dressing a certain way. The emphasis on displaying ones physical attributes and having the world assess them is ridiculous. When I’m sure you’d be quick to point out that women like to look good for themselves, why then do you deny your sisters the right to cover up for themselves also?

And I have to point out, that hijab is not just a headscarf, it is the whole concept of modesty and covering the entire body (bar hands, face and feet) in loose, opaque clothing. So why then is the decision of a women to cover her hair, any different from the woman who decides not to wear cleavage-revealing tops or mini skirts? You have something against hijab and claim it makes women invisible, but let’s say we take our head coverings off, and stayed modestly dressed, are you honestly going to tell me this will miraculously change our place in society? Or do we have to undress further into order to become ‘visible’ enough for you? This is where your argument completely crumbles.

Had you actually bothered to really listen to Muslim women, you’ll see the reason we all have our own reasons for wearing hijab. I believe our bodies are a gift from God and so must be looked after. Islam teaches that ALL women are beautiful just as they are, and that their beauty is precious and not something any idiot on the street is allowed to ogle. It’s a PRIVILEGE that’s reserved only for her Mahrams (i.e. husband, female friends and close relatives ). For me, THAT is empowering, that is uplifting, that boosts my self-esteem. I already know I am gorgeous, and I don’t need to reveal my body to strangers, slap on layers of make-up to prove my self-worth. I don’t need to wear certain clothes and shout out to the world, ‘hey I’m sexy’! And of course, Islam commands men to dress modestly too and lower their gaze before it does so for women. And if you take a look at the traditional dress of men in Muslim countries, you’ll find that most of them cover their bodies and heads too.

cont.

Phatiens, I didn’t take offence at being called western: though to some people, it is bad – even to people who have benefited from western notions of liberty, universal education, welfare states etc – don’t ask me why, I just think it’s more to do with the global political climate than any internal philosophising. What discombobulated me about Nasfim’s ‘accusation’ is that I don’t believe that all philosophy to do with ‘liberalism’ is western. Nasfim even stated that freedom is a western concept, which I still have to untangle with her, what I objected to was the notion that I was allowing myself to be influenced by one philosophy to the exclusion of others. Most of my values are western perhaps, but many are not. Believe it or not, some are even Islamic values J I was only allowed to go to university because I told my mother that Mohammed rated women’s education above even mens’ – I discovered this before I even discovered western feminism.

Nancy, just wanted to point out that although this discussion has been very broad, we’re not really examining the issue of veiling per se (because it’s different in every culture), but why western liberal women veil. I don’t think that Nasfim or Anisah who commented above are oppressed or have low self-esteem. Similarly, my sisters who veil, are very traditional, but they don’t veil because they have low self-esteem, they do it because it is what they were taught is appropriate dress. My main observation then, is that it is not an individual choice that women make to do with their individual positions, it’s part of much bigger social customs and attitudes. And that’s what I’d like to change and I believe film is a great medium for doing so. Thanks to everyone for watching it and commenting.

If any of you are interested in continuing this debate, please see www.cineforum.co.uk where I hope to answer a lot more of these types of questions.

Soulzy’s statement is very cool – I’m a cyclist and dash about town in sports gear a lot – no-one lusts after me – boohoo ;-) but the girls in hijab walking through London these days are so damn sexy! They think about their appearance much more than I do. They wear makeup and tight jeans and I promise you, I have myself seen a good many cleavages on women wearing the scarf. So Soulzy, you’re right. Try combats and tshirt if you want to desexualise J But seriously though, choice of dress is a fantastic thing and I rate these women who wear what they want, be in hijab and tight jeans, but that choice can only be made in the west, where we are standing on the shoulders of women who fought for our right to have that choice. How can we reject that sacrifice when they gave us such freedom?

I also agree with unimatrix0 that the hijab is very insulting to men and it surprises me that so many non-Muslim men have still to work this out – in the west we have what I’ve dubbed ‘liberal fascism’ which is basically a blinkered view of other cultures, a position that states that ‘the other’ should be able to do as they please, we mustn’t interfere. But as soon as I make it clear that women in hijab are protecting themselves from you (say you are a white male lecturer at a university), then suddenly these men realise that the hijab is about them, it is not limited to the other, because the other is making a judgement about your capacities and intentions.

This brings me to Seanalyn’s statement that you can’t comment because you are not a Muslim women. I’d like to have a proper conversation about that if I had the space, but briefly, this issue is about women, not about Muslim women. We need to get away from this destructive notion that Muslims should be subject to different rules than others – as human beings we need to all live by the same fundamental codes – ofcourse we must have our cultural differences, that’s what makes the world exciting and beautiful, but allowing women to be seen as secondary in society is not a cultural difference, it’s a violation of human rights.

Anisah, thanks for voting up my video even though you didn’t agree with it - you seem to be on the same page as Nasfim, my British friend in the film. And you’re right, that is the position I find most difficult to understand in some ways. I would never deny anyone the choice to wear the hijab, but I would always maintain that it has negative repercussions for society as a whole, which almost makes your wearing it a selfish act (please please don’t take offence, this is just for the sake of the debate). I say that because your position that it is a personal expression of your faith gives credence to the principle of the hijab and in most cases women who wear it do not have the privilege of choosing how and what they express and the hijab is a massive indicator of the right to choose being taken away. Another thing I don’t accept is that if you are required to do something (by God or any other authority) and you do it, how is that a choice? Surely that is obedience and submission, so it’s a contradiction to say that you have chosen to do it. A non Muslim who decides to wear the hijab for spiritual or social reasons would truly be making a choice to wear it.

Your last point about exoticising Muslim women is a good one and always a problem for filmmakers. It sets the scene, which is really all I was doing. As filmmakers we have to think, who is this for? What do they already know? What do I need to spell out? In this case, this film is for a western audience, so setting the scene with a Muslim woman singing seemed to be the right way to set the scene quickly.

TenaciusZ, thanks for your observation: but it can be argued that all systems are oppressive and to a degree, dogmatic even.

Thanks everyone for engaging with this.

I love Sophie’s idea of a wider global exploration of the hijab and the different reasons people wear it, but I wonder what purpose such a film would serve. I understand the educational value of that, but as a Muslim woman myself who is passionate about change, I want to produce films that actually change attitudes.

How do Muslim men express their ‘contract with God’? That’s a question I can’t answer, but I am working on another film to explore this and will be getting people together to work this out at an event I’m organising for March.

I like how Joy echoed Ibrahim in the film, that the veil in some ways is a red herring, veiling (as it were) the real issue of misogyny in so many cultures. I’m also pleased that Joy (and so many of you) understood and accepted the parallel between veiling and exposing.

Pali makes a very good point about polgyny (multiple wives) in Islam, it was indeed a practice that suited its time - the corollary of that being that it is no longer suitable in this time. Is the veil not a similar thing? According to my own studies (particularly Quran 33:59 - O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed), I found that ‘veiling’ was requested so that women of a certain class, particularly those associated with the Prophet, may be recognised and not harassed – these days we agree that NO women should be harassed, regardless of social standing, we all have the equal right to go about unmolested.

Where I don’t agree with you Pali is that women in hijab ‘walk with no fear’ – I think that’s a myth, just look at women in Iran and Afghanistan. Maybe in the west it’s a symbol of pride, but elsewhere it is a symbol of oppression. In some countries, the hijab is designed to make women invisible in society and particularly in leadership. It’s easier to ignore women if you can’t see them. And that’s my personal quest here, to find a way that women from Muslim cultures can take on greater roles in civil life – does the hijab prevent women from having influence? That’s another thing I’m keen to explore at my Cineforum in March.

Oneup, you seem to agree with Fazilet in the film, and I love the way you put it, that a women’s sexuality can bring a man to his knees J - if only! I’m single, maybe you can help me out there! But seriously, I do agree with you and Fazilet, but I also believe that we have the capacity to overcome that. I believe that’s what civilisation is, the capacity to overcome our base animal instincts. I had a good conversation with Fazilat about that, she said that she isn’t prepared to sacrifice her modesty and safety while we wait for men to become civilised (please forgive my generalisations here, it’s just for the sake of brevity). Thanks to unimatrix0 for pointing this out more articulately than I can. But it’s Catch 22, if we reinforce to men that they can’t help harassing women on the streets, that that is just their nature, how do we move forwards to a time when men stop ogling us? This process did happen in the west and many western feminists did sacrifice a lot, but the west made great strides. I maintain that I prefer living in Britain than in Bangladesh (where my family are from). There is no chance at all that I can go out alone in Bangladesh, but the sacrifices western women made mean that I don’t need to be dependent on someone to be able to go to college or even to pop out for some milk.

Interesting interview. The main difference I see in my culture and yours is our history. In America our forefathers built this land from scratch and in the farming community where my ancestors started the man worked quite closely with their wives in order to survive. That garnered a lot of respect for women although to this day there are too many men who think it is their right to beat their wives. But we have laws for those who will not take anymore abuse. I have to wonder, not really just the scarves covering their hair, but the ones that cover their faces, if it has a lot to do with low self-esteem. Oppressed women generally have that but don't know what to call it. No words for expressing their hopelessness and depression. Is it just a way to go along to get along for some of your women?

great piece, love the balance between both sides.

As a non Muslim woman I really cannot really weigh in on the issue, but I think the bottom line is that a woman should wear it for herself and not because she feels pressured to.

Again, wonderful job!

Wow - thanks everyone, I feel quite humbled by all the responses, especially receiving such balanced and thoughtful views - I'm sorry I've been quiet, been having a New Year break, but I'm very keen to respond properly to you all, but it's the first day back at work, so I will try and make time tonight. Thanks!! Jobeda

The greatest result of your film is that judging by the comments it clearly has not alienated hijabi-wearing viewers - congratulations.

Its very interesting to see woman break the mold and become who they choose to be. In the Mid-East its to be able to choose to where a veil or not. I did not know covering yourself with a veil could invite male dominance. Also, is to be called "western" bad? That's interesting.

I thought this was an insightful and journalistically balanced report.

Great food for thought. However, whats interesting is that these hijab wearing women think their sexuality is decreased, just because they've covered their head and chest...no way no how! Unless they can somehow make themselves look like men, weather they are completely covered in a niqab, or wearing a hijab, or neither, the fact that they are women, and clearly so, will mean their sexuality will still have an effect.

Perhaps the cover-up may purely serve as a reminder to those uncontrollable male onlookers that they shouldn't be thinking about women sexually - and that is all.

So in my view, women are just being used, and controlled to suit mens needs. Sad, really.

Jobeda

I voted your video up although I complete disagree with your premise. I am one of those strange, liberal Western Muslim women who wears hijab.

I think one of the biggest failures of your video is one of the main problems of how the hijab is interpreted among both Muslims and non-Muslims. Selective reading of the ayah or verse. In the same ayah that you quote men are told to lower their gazes and instructed to not harass women. (Pretty cool divine critique of the male gaze-a constant area of interest in second wave feminist thought)The problem is that many Muslims have neglected this verse choosing to make hijab bear the sole brunt of all sexual decorum.

Just as the hadith literature tells us that the streets have a right (meaning that those construction workers who objectify women are completely out of line) everyone no matter what they are wearing is to be treated with dignity. The decision to wear hijab as a Muslim women is not about men, it is not even about my beauty. It is my choose to subscribe to a particular code of dress to, in some sense, assert my identity as a believing women and finally, most importantly, to allow myself the space to interpret and live the Qur'an as I believe my lord wants me to.

I do think that your friend in the video was dead on about your decision to go to Turkey where the hijab has deep political and social ramifications. I also am suspect of any video on Muslims that begins with the cliche exotic singing women. If we are looking to break down boundaries between the West and the East, we should resist always producing ourselves as exotic other.

Wow....... how about it's religions that are oppressive period. A god is as likely as the Tooth Fairy existing.

The erotic aspect of the hijaab is fascinating. On one hand the covering only heightens mystery and the erotic. And yet the whole idea of the hijaab was to somehow de-eroticize women, and this for their own protection.

The whole mess is terribly sexist. It is as if we are prisoners of gender and sexuality, and so must perform the grossest contortions.

The west is not immune to such contortions, as the pod points out. Indeed, fake boobs and the hijaab can be seen as two sides of the same coin.

Yet there is often a backward ignorance around the hijab. It enforces an immature impression that every man is just a dog in heat and that every woman is such a great temptation that they must cover themselves so that the men will be able to maintain control of themselves. This notion is silly and naive. More than this it is insulting to assume all men are sexual children who can not control their actions.

No doubt the most important thing is that a woman has a choice to cover or not. When a woman is forced to cover she is a victim. To force a woman to cover is to oppress that woman.

I voted this up.

Truly great pod, thanks for posting this.

Peace be unto you, sister. I agree with pali_pride that hijab is for the character of the Muslim woman too. But yes, we are sexual creatures. The power of a woman's sexuality will bring a man to his knees. You can not deny this. This is not negative. It just needs to be put into its proper place. Not on the streets for all. It upsets me to see women complacent with their role in society as sex objects.

!!!!!! WOW !!!!!!

( AS A PROUD MUSLIM GIRL )........
The subject of the ha-jab, as always come and gone.
I'm a 19 year old female living in Harlem New York ( home of non other then the great Malcolm X )! There for I see lots of muslims come and go. Most of them which are converts. I view the theme of Ha-jab as ( and was always put in this ) that a women wearing Ha- jab is something she is willing to do, not something she's forced into doing! Ha- jab isn't just for intention on lowering the sexual way man think, but also is character of the muslim women!
You see the meaning of Islam isn't just the meaning of "Peace, but it's a " Submission To ALLAH ( God ) " And now some may ask but then why is it that Muhammad (SAW... MAY PEACE & BLESSINGS BE APON HIM ) had 4 wives! It's only because back in his generation, there were more women then men, after the war happened so he took em in as wives ( who some were widow, or divorced )!

For my sisters, who wear Ha- Jab...
MAY THE ALWAYS BE STRONG,
FROM THEM I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH,
HOW THEY SUFFER SO MUCH,
THEY WALK WITH NO FEAR,
THREW ALL THEM INSULTS THEY HEAR!

There women just like us all! They just cover more then you and I do!

Hi Jobeda:
Peace be unto you.
Here is a 360 degree thought for you. I am an African American female a descendent of African slaves with a surprise mixture.I am certain the females that I descended from were indeed a class of women that were victums of male domination from that time. Here is the hook. I am happy in one aspect of that sad time in our history. We no longer had to endure FGM as slaves but we were raped ramdomly at any time during our captivity.We traded freedom from mutilation but had to endure the crime of slavery and rape and dominance over our race. Now 300 years later the situation has produced a free thinking woman without the threat of FGM or male dominance. The crime of rape is alive for women veiled or unveiled in any country.So I think the real issue remains the lack of respect for women in any country.
We have to respect and love ourselves first veiled or not and stand up for equal treatment of women no matter where they live on this planet.We have to take issue with the dehumanizing images and stereotypes of women in all forms in our societies.Peace and Love my sister.
Joy

Hi Jobeda: a balanced documentary that was also passionate and well-expressed. It would be interesting to document the uses of the veil in other specific contexts, for example in France (which, like Turkey, enshrines secularism in the constitution) or in the US, where I think it is worn as a statement of resistance and anti-imperialism by some women. I was very interested by the idea of the veil as expressing a "contract with God", and wondered how and whether devout Muslim men express this contract sartorially in the West? Ie: are they "marked out" in the same way?
It would be great to set this in a multi-ethnic context as well: are different veiling practices followed by different Muslim communities in Britain -- does it mean something different for Bangladeshi, Somali, Turkish, Bosnian, Palestinian women, or can it be seen as a way of expressing cultural solidarity, both within the context of racism and Islamophobia in the UK, and with embattled communities (Palestine, Iraq) abroad? I'd love to see you take the debate further about how secular feminists have done, and continue to, resist sexualisation (I don't think Western feminism has failed completely, and is always being reinvented), and whether there are compatibilities and alliances to be made. As Ibrahim says, the veil *really* is a veil over larger questions to do with socio-cultural gender conditioning and gendered violence.