Moral Health Care vs. "Universal Health Care

I'm a registered INDEPENDENT! You can believe what you want since you are arguing from belief anyway, eventually reality will bite you in the ass. I would have voted for Kucinich, but he was knocked out of the race. I would have voted for Cynthia McKinney, but I didn't like her party's platform. There are people from every party that appeal to me, just usually no one I like gets elected since they are usually reasonable and honest.

Marilynn, I can see that you're obviously very passionate about this issue, and it's apparent that you care deeply for others. But I think what I and other critics can't get a grasp on is how, exactly, government involvement can be reasonbly expected to reduce the costs and bureaucracy of a failing healthcare system.

It is, of course, in our national best interest to have a healthy and well-educated populace. It is even the morally right and compassionate thing to do. But the question I have is, "how do we actually accomplish this goal?" I don't see how a government that is by your own admission deaf to its constituents can be reasonably expected to do what the people want. I don't see how, with a track record of complete failure in every sector it has taken control over (with the notable exception of the TVA), we could expect anything but bureaucratic incompetence and mismanagement.

How many times must your teenager wreck your car before you stop handing over the keys?

What this country needs is a solution that actually has a reasonable chance of success. Saying "That didn't work so we have no choice but this" doesn't cut it. We need to stop the partisan bickering and name-calling and find a real solution. It is time for America to grow up.

LetLibertyRing, I'd rather be the the bastard child of John Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe than the bastard child of George W Bush and Karl Rove.

A bunch of RNC twenty-five cent bloggers. Learn to spell, get an original idea, or a job. You jerks are too funny.

Bottom line - open your mind - start thinking for yourself, drink lots of water to wash out the remnants of cool-aid from your system, else risk the symptoms to become permanent and incurable. It is clearly too late for certain posters here. For the rest of you - please watch the video right above my post. Hussein is such a pathetic lier... Or moron - he really has no fucking clue about this stuff - just repeats what he was told to say...

Marilynn_Murray:

Are the bastard child of Marilyn Monroe and JFK?

If so, then that explains your limousine liberal socialist ape-like mentality.

NikeLibertate:

If you use the $70 trillion figure, make sure you use flash cards for poor ol' Kenny. I think he skipped the rest of his elementary school grades, which explains why his math skills are non-existent. Logic has never been his strong suit.

Maybe if he purchased some tapes that went like, "On your workbook, write the following sentence: 'The free market is 1000% better than the state anytime, any day of the week. I will worship it like the god it is.' Then write that sentence 500 times. Make sure you memorize it. If you do that, you get an A for the day."

http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html

Multiply this by 70! This is what we already owe. Where are you going to get the money if we don't have jobs to tax or employers to tax!

KennyMotown:

You are a limousine liberal socialist nitwit, not to mention an ungrateful little child who can't even see the illogic of your arguments. They are flawed. B.S. straw men arguments have no credibility in any way. Don't you even do research or bother to read what NikeLibertate is trying to prove to you? Or do you even care about the truth at all?

Subsidized health care, whether those subsidies end up in the hands of Big Pharma, Big Managed Care, or the government or all of the above, destroy the incentives of providing quality health care that patients need to further their own lives. The vile and diabolical state is the reason why the corporate health care state exists, not the free market. You and your Luddite morons have got it all wrong. The politicians and bureaucrats suck at running the health care system. What makes them qualified to decide how the health care system should be managed or run?

A self-serving, high-and-mighty jackass like you wouldn't understand economics if it were written in the style of a children's book for you. By the time you get to the first sentence, it would read to you: "See government destroy. The government only hurts our good economy."

I swear, you are dumber than a wood tick.

I figured it out, that's why I disagree.
I know the government is inept therefore my ideas for improvements for problems that need to be solved is to give more power to us, the people who need the services and goods. Not give more power to the political elites who siphon our wealth off and hurt us with it. This is a freedom issue, health freedom. I don't want my records centralized in a new bureaucracy, what boggles me is that you do. I want complete control over my health decisions, not some bureaucrat. And who do you think created this mess to begin with? Our great and glorious leaders will find a way to keep the Big Pharma and Big Insurance fat at our expense. Trust me on this, fight to get your control back, don't fight to give away your life to people who don't know you and don't care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QMYFgC_YSo

And also, what makes you think you have a right to other peoples property? You want to sell my daughters deeper into debt so you can get a free medical care! And I'm selfish? Is it not selfish to take "free" services from the government since it was appropriated from someone else? The government can only make money three ways: tax, borrow, or print. All three are destructive to it's people for generations. We are already in 11 trillion dollars of debt, another 1.6 trillion is unsustainable on top of the 70 trillion we have in unfunded liabilities with SS and Medicaid and Medicare, we are broke! Wake up!

nikelibertate, You will probably never figure it out. Sad state of affairs.

Thank you for your open mindedness. You are obviously joking, or your a moron, neither has been ruled out yet.

You know, I can still speak my mind whether or not you agree with me. That is the beauty of freedom, why would you ever want to curtail it!

No, you can't you are on restriction.

Since I'm not a Republican, I can talk about it.

Another thing, Republicans would do themselves a favor if they quit claiming to be moral. Your politicians just keep screwing around publicly. It is an embarrassment.

What are you guys going to have left to talk about after Ed Shultz takes his show to Canada for the whole country to see that the Canadians are very satisfied with their healthcare?

Have we as Americans completely lost our ability to reason? Can someone explain to me how handing over more money to the federal government is going to solve this problem? That's like signing your paycheck over to your alcoholic gambler uncle because your wife has a shopping addiction! What good do you think will come of this?

Saying "it's broken now so we have to do something" doesn't solve the problem, it exacerbates it. By reacting with solutions that do not address the problem, you begin a chain reaction of reactionism that cannot be stopped until it completely self-destructs.

No one is arguing that health care costs are out of control. But no one seems to be asking why. Why isn't health care affordable? And how? How is a government that leverages our futures on a Ponzi scheme supposed to fix it? What, you hate the rich doctors so you want to take their money away and give it to rich politicians?

America has lost its collective mind.

And kennymotown remove the William Wallace Icon, you don't deserve to lick his kilt! Not when you try to sell slavery as freedom.

Those weren't my numbers, they were CONGRESSES numbers.

I was for all this over a year ago, I started to research it and found that the numbers didn't fit. And the philosophy is faulty at best, disastrous at worst. It's funny you guys were all anti government before Obama and now your all we trust our government, what makes you think anything has changed? The nature of the state hasn't changed in 5000 yrs, over 200 million dead in the twentieth century alone, murdered by their own governments and yet you beg from their table, good god, don't you think you deserve better than that? You care nothing for truth, which is this whole thing will be another Ponzi scheme like Social Security, but it's okay because you have a right to rip off people who DON"T WANT THIS, so you can claim to be progressive and civilized. Meanwhile, you are begging while you hold a gun to your victims head in the name of HUMANITARIANISM? Please! Where's my choice and my daughters, how much more DEBT do you want to saddle them with? They are already starting in the hole to the tune of $150,000.00 because of all the corporate welfare and outright welfare. I guess I shouldn't care about their futures, just your right to take from them what isn't yours to claim! So you can feel high minded and righteous!

Well said div, finally a canadian that will vouch for their medical system, I am so sick and tired of these guys spouting the right wing talking points about how bad socialized medicine would be. Ed Schultz of the Ed show is asking for Republican Senators to take a field trip with him to Toronto to check out the Canadian health care system that they put down all the time. I wonder how many takers there will be on that one. None I bet, they and some of the dem senators are on the insurers dole and that is bribery that will be prosecuted when this thing is fixed.

Seriously.

Why on earth would we trust our government?

I mean our roads are in shambles, our cities are ablaze with chaos and destruction, there are massacres across the states and we are constantly being invaded by other nations because of our weak military.

Indeed our government has done nothing but fail, barely surviving two centuries and expanding across most of an entire continent while still not imploding like other similarly sized nations who attempted the same thing (an exception aside).

I agree, screw the government, why would I want the government involved in my healthcare when I can have some guy whose only qualities are that he knows how to make money off of other people's misfortunes and has never in his lifespan done anything of value.

I mean that's what makes health insurance companies so attractive isn't it? The fact that unlike the government there is absolutely no historical evidence of an insurance company doing anything positive for the people it serves.

Nothing has been written down in a final version of the Obama plan, and with unemployment hovering around 10 % and not projecting to get any better anytime soon don't tell me we don't have 50 million people in the country without health care. Your numbers are quite skewed and don't tell the story of the millions of Americans who live in states with broken budgets that no longer cover new applicants to their medicare system and the half a million workers who are losing their jobs every month. Now when you throw in the 10 million more people who no longer even appear on the unemployment roles since they have exausted their unemployment benifits how many does that make. The public option if you are still listening to me will let the employee keep his or her same coverage from job to job at one quarter of the cost of employer coverage that is rising at 17.9% per year and more and more employers are dropping their coverage. Boom an automatic pay raise every year instead of the mafia insurance company's getting your raise, now without being burden by the insurance company's the employer can hire more workers the workers they have can enjoy a raise now every year. It's a win win situation.

And here's a thought, why would you trust the people who still have people in trailers in New Orleans to supply your health care? Why would you trust the same government that has failed to care for our soldiers with your medical decisions?

Wait times in Canada are primarily due to the shortage of doctors. the shortage of doctors is due to the lengthy and difficult training required to become a doctor in Canada, as well as the MUCH higher wages being paid for doctors in the US. Doctors are paid so much in the US because their patients are charged so very much.

I've been on Medicaid in this country, I hated it. Way too invasive. That's why I oppose this, because I've been on the receiving end and I know how it works. I was very happy when I got out.

I'm all for getting rid of the HMO's and stopping the stranglehold of the insurance mafia. However the plans I've seen all amount to forced mandatory coverage, not a single payer system. How about we get rid of mandates about policies in some states, so people could choose their coverage and end the state protection of the companies so interstate competition brings down costs? We can lower the costs and have people protected without ballooning the state to a more costly leviathan.

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=4210

There is not 40 million uninsured Americans

Out of 320,000,000 about 20 million are uninsured for a whole year, some by their own choice.

At any time that number fluctuates as people move jobs or change policies. Anyone with a low enough income qualifies for Medicaid and even many minimum wage jobs offer benefits.

Whole Foods changed there plan to a HSAs (Health Savings Accounts) and their employees are able to choose any number of options, it's save the company and the employees money and the employees all have more choices in their health care options.

And yet we are ranked 37th out of 38 industrialized country's around the world and we should stick with it?
I'm trying to understand why you are against the public option when the numbers we have in this country are much worse than Canada or England and we pay twice as much per person than either of those country's for half the outcomes. We pay 16.5% of GDP for health care in this country and Canada pays 9.5% of GDP all they would have to do to improve dramatically is to go to 10.5 GDP and we are still not addressing the 50 million people in this country without insurance not to mention the countless millions that think they are covered till they actually get sick and find out they have a huge co-pay or a 1,000 dollar deductable because we all have a thousand dollars laying around to pay for medical bills that should be covered by our insurers.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080814210004.htm

http://www.canada.com/Health+wait+times+require+action+docs/1712025/story.html I checked it , this one works. It's from the Canadian news.

http://www.burtonreport.com/InfHealthCare/BritNatHealthServ.htm

I clicked on your recommendation nikelibertate can not be found or maybe canada doesn't like the lies your spreading either.

kiltedandfree, you must work for the insurance mobsters ruining America or your just drunk again. We
are paying in our insurance costs for all the people that use hospital emergency rooms without insurance to the tune of 1100 dollars per person. And that doesn't even count the millions that treat themselves because they will not go because of fear of having their credit wrecked for life just because they can't afford to see a doctor or the emergency room because you will be billed and charged late fees and sent to a credit collecting company.
Ijustshitinmykilt you are so full of lies your making me sick. Keep spreading those lies cause it doesn't make any difference the tide is turning. We are ranked 37 out 38 in the industrialized nations of the world in health care because we are the only one of those country's that doesn't have single payer. Your blatant lie about waiting to see a doctor is so outrages for a guy who claims to be so mentally superior to the likes of me it's laughable. And Obama has done more to mess up America than Bush ever has, that's the biggest lie in your whole rambling, lying statement made 5 hours ago. Have you passed out yet or just went back to the liquor store or are you still gumming your mother on the couch. HAHAHA. BBBOOOOYYYY!

Obama is telling Catholic hospitals that they must perform abortions at their hospitals. This goes against the catholic value on unborn life. The Bishops have already said they would be forced to close hospitals in their cities. Lots of people depend on Catholic hospitals for their care. Don't force people to violate their conscience, Obama, just because you have none. And my taxpayer money won't go to Planned Parenthood so they can abort millions of little black babies- I won't support state sanctioned racism!

OK, now that I've responded to each "person" who thinks socialized medicine is a wonderful fix for present day health care I will go on from here. How many of you have insurance because you have a job? How many of you don't? How many of you know you can go to any ER in the country and be seen by a good doctor? Any hospital that takes govt funds in the way of Medicare is required to see anyone who comes to their door, without exception. How many of you know that is what people without insurance do, and they are given the same medical care you and I get and it is free. then they are referred to doctors who take Medicaid and Medicare. So we do have a portion of socialized medicine and these people get to be seen sooner than you will under this governments socialized medicine plan. But the govt does not run all of heath care, just that portion and it is eaten up with monumental red tape.

Please if you want to learn what socialized medicine has in store for the US, look to Canada, England and Australia and check out how long it takes to get in initial visit with a doctor and actually there will be no need to see a doctor, you can see your government agent who has a computer that some docs who are paid 8 figure salaries because they work for the govt, and haven't touched a patient in years who makes the computer algorythims that says with these symptoms you have this and this is your treatment. You don't need a doctor to tell you that so you see a clerk and that clerk tells you to come back in 1 year for follow-up. There is NO room for people with real symptoms. And you only get one symptom at a time. If you have a real problem you might see a clerk in 8 months instead of the year, you know you are triaged in severity by a clerk who knows nothing about medicine and she will be 18 years old and mindless, because they don't want anyone who can think, that detracts from moving patients. You won't need nurses or any professional people in hospitals just clerks, they are cheaper and easily replaced when they start thinking. There will be no more medical schools because there won't be any reason for anyone to choose that profession. Who wants to spend 12 years in school only to not work? No one. There won't be a place for any doctor to work. Pharmaceutical companies will go belly up because there will be no money for research and new drugs. The old drugs will stop working and what then? Antibiotics don't last that long anymore because of mutations of bacteria and viruses. Wanna get an infection where there is no cure? But you will wonder where all the money is going that you pay in high taxes for socialized medicine that the govt tells you is working wonderfully, but they need to up your taxes this year because the cost of running this has increased. Well, just like the government who is transparent today will be just as transparent tomorrow. In other words you won't know and they won't be telling. You will pay 60% plus in taxes taken out of your paycheck before you see it. All you will be able to do is bitch bitch bitch at the horrible condition our health care system has become and who ya gonna call? Who ya gonna blame, well Bush isn't around anymore, and you don't blame Obama for anything even tho he has done far more detrimental to America than Bush ever thought about. At least Bush loved this country. Bush wasn't a great president, hell not even a good one, but he did stick to what he said and he did what he said. He didn't speak out of the side of his mouth. Obama isn't even a citizen of the US. One day it will come out. Probably right after he changes the laws.in the middle of the night so no one will see.

Please don't take my word, research health care in Canada, England and Australia. I have to say this two or three times because hatred is hard to get through and it is hatred between the two parties of government that keeps some from listening to reason, or just someone's opinion.

This is exactly what we all need to watch out for folks. This post have all the ingredients for you to identify who is your enemy in this health care debate. It is so easy to fall for something so deceiving like this if one does not understand the fundamentals of life and the right to every person to not be transformed in an object or product of consume. Who else could have crafted an article in the name of peace, freedom and prosperity does not understand a fundamental issue about the things in life that we can profit from those things that we cannot totally profit from it. Observe here the use of words and of what this person perceives as being the solution. I will leave you with that, but let's talk about major distortion folks. Read about it because this it is your enemy in action right here lobbying against your own precious life and your right to be treated with compassion and respect. Ugh!

the greedy AMA and drug companies will benefit from this socialization of health insurance.....

So I assume your solution is to leave it to the greed of the AMA and the Drug companies instead? something has to be done! The problems you mention can be resolved by wording in a new law mandating the same standard of health care for all at fixed prices for services! when the Bill of Rights was written health care wasn't even an issue, and just as amendments were made to the constitution as warrented,health Care and housing I believe are rights that every american should expect! instead of providing it to other counties,we need to take care of our own!

I am for universal health care, and strongly against a fully free market implementation. voted down. Private insurers are afraid to have even a public option because they won't be able to compete with it... because they know most people will prefer it... because it's better and cheaper. Otherwise, they wouldn't be afraid to compete with it. If it sucks so bad, they wouldn't even worry about it posing a viable threat to their business (of denying coverage).

Single payer is not socialized medicine and any article that calls it so reveals itself as biased propaganda. Other evidence is that they quote the American Medical Association, which is basically a lobby for the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries. Socialized medicine is a system in which doctors and hospitals work for the government, like in the military. Socialized health insurance is not the same thing as socialized medicine. With socialized health insurance, the government covers services rendered by private health care professionals.

“30 to 40 percent of practicing physicians would not choose to enter the medical profession if they were deciding on a career again, and an even higher percentage would not encourage their children to pursue a medical career.”

Good. Let's weed out the people who are solely in it for the money. I'm sure more compassionate parents would encourage their kids to become doctors for the RIGHT reasons, such as compassion and a real desire to help people. Those are the kinds of doctors I want treating me anyway. Besides, they are not taking into account the increased 'business' they will get because many more people will be covered.

Saying things like it will "destroy American medicine and countless lives along with it" is pretty dumb. We are the only industrialized nation that doesn't provide universal health, and I don't see medical Armageddon in those countries at all.

Greed is the worst motivator for caring for people. Caring about money over real people is why we have denial of coverage and so many uninsured. This defense of greed over humanity sickens me.

locutus - when you or your parents gets refused under this new utopian plan - and will die - as non-viables - we'll see what kind of song you'll be singing. Read the article - don't just assume you know the subject matter - you do not!!! This can be the greatest mistake for America. I also re-read the Bill or Rights - nowhere did I see a mention of Healthcare being a right!!!!! You are delusional on the subject. Stop drinking the cool-aid - start thinking for yourself. Govt will not solve all of your problems - but will create a state of apathy, mediocrity and failure... Peace out...

look people while I agree that the government will screw it up,what chioce is there? greedy doctors and drug companies will continue to keep health care cost high and deprive the working class and the poor from getting good health care! I do not believe that the AMA or the drug companies will ever volenteer to regulate costs without some kind of oversight,or a law that forces them too! So what choice is there? health care,and I believe housing,are a right of every American! the greedy doctors and the drug companies must be brought into line!

What is immoral is arguing against universal/socialized health care.

Healthcare is a right.

Shame on you for spreading right wingnut propaganda.

As soon as a medical tragedy strikes all these macho libertarian poseurs who think they can do it w/out the govs help will be crying for some relief.

You know with everything our federal Govt is fucking up, its a wonder why we as citizens still allow and/or buy into these federal programs..... If anything, we should have learned there is not enough oversight on these programs and since our country itself is so big (especially compared to the ones who have "working govt healthcare) it is extremely hard to have any type of quality control...... We should just stay within our founding principles and keep it within the states!!!

Great article! Just voted it up!