Is it logical to believe in god?
source: http://www.templeton.org/video/macdonald_novak/1.html
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- middle_east
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From the article:
Do skeptics, agnostics and atheists have anything in common with people of faith? The recent popularity of books on both sides shows many opinions but not much evidence of similarities. Theologian Michael Novak, author of No One Sees God, argues that believers and nonbelievers often share experiences, including times of doubt. Does doubt lead to disbelief? Does faith always involve leaving reason behind? In this Beliefnet Blogalogue, skeptic and journalist Heather MacDonald, takes on Michael Novak in a lively discussion. Join this conversation about faith and doubt, belief and reason, and whether there is common ground for believers and nonbelievers.
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pdthorn
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Is it logical to believe in "G-d", Faith as defined by Merriam Webster: belief and trust in and loyalty to God, belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion; firm belief in something for which there is no proof, complete trust.
Which is to say in modern times when there has been no provided proof as to the activities of G-d that stand up to scientific scrutiny, much less by definition the concept of Faith is that there can be no proof or scientific process to examine the merit to a claim, No it's not logical. It flies in the face of reason.
- 4 years ago
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pdthorn
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Reddi
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pdthorn:
"I see no necessity in the belief that the eye was expressly designed. On the other hand, I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe, and especially the nature of man, and to conclude that everything is the result of brute force. I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance. Not that this notion at all satisfies me." - Darwin, 1860
- 4 years ago
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Reddi
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thorstein
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pdthorn:
Boy, if a christian had said these things, you'd think he were talking about intelligent design. Oh, yeah, and let's not forget that he and his brother spawned an ambition to develop a super human species!
It explains his ambivalence! If you think he's not talking about using "designed laws," you obviously don't know Darwin! Also, the notion that someone could ienter into a social experiment that a super species was possible and in turn not believe in "god."
It is hypocritical to criticize others for believing in God. A being that's been around longer and has far more knowledge about what "designed laws" are and how they play out.
Typical of people who don't believe in a "god." You don't want to believe in God, but you do everything that indicates that you want to be gods yourselves.
Geez, hmm! Is it logical to believe in "god"? Well, let me see...
- 4 years ago
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thorstein
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Reddi
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Simple answer .... yes ...
Book: Belief in God, Its Origin, Nature, and Basis
By Jacob Gould Schurman
http://books.google.com/books?id=O8ETAAAAYAAJ - 4 years ago
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Reddi
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ninepounds6
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So, first of all it is a legitimate question, not rhetoric, and certainly not rhetorical. That just makes no sense... it is simply a question, and it has answers. Appearantly, just not yours.
You also assume that just because someone does not beleive in a god, they, unlike you, have done no research, asked the tough questions, or looked inside themselves. That is a huge assumption, to assume that only you or religious people have done their research.
You also believe that popele who ask this question no longer care about what they believe. Again, a big assumtion. Tell me, where did that come from? Do all athiests and agnostics fall into this category? Just silly, dimwitted trolls agonizing thier way though life, lost, and hopeless? According to you, we all make bad choices, and up depressed and suicidal. I am willing to bet, if you care to research it, that more religious people make irrational decisions, walk into post offices and kill everyone in sight, and commit suicide. Making religion fit into modern society is something that requires belief, not logic. It is impossible to do without dismissing reality at least on some level.
And again, you assume that we have doubt! How reflective of you! Religious people have doubts, dear, much more so that athiests. Agnostics leave it open. Just who has doubts here?
A heck of a lot of assuming going on!
And finally, your advice to us is to go to a Catholic church? Are you serious? Just a few decades ago they taught that eating meat on a Friday was a cardinal sin, and the pope was as good as Jesus! Crusades, wars, exclusion, politics, hate, discrimination, chauvanism, the Dark Ages and the Inquisitions, child molestations and centuries of hiding it... all good historical reasons to seek advice from these people...
Doubting is illogical? LOL! Look, every advance in science came about with the help of doubt... every discovery has to be proven... that settles doubt about findings. Doubt keeps children safe from predators, women safe from rapists, and sanity in business, politics, and the law! According to you, doubt is illogical! I wouild hate to have you and your kind on a jury where I was accused of something I did not do!
Lord, you are WAY off! And a perfect example of religion creating the "holier than thou" attitude so charming in human relations...
- 4 years ago
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ninepounds6
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thorstein
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ninepounds6:
Apparently, what I said got your attention! But really, you didn't have to get defensive and judgemental.
And as regards to the Catholic church, this isn't the Medieval ages lady! Wake up! Talk about backward looking. Even the Catholic church has come a long ways! But if you should know, the "Catholic church" in those days was an extension of the Roman empire, not the real church. The proof in the pudding is in how they persecuted real christians. Boy are you way off!
I just want an answer that relates to what I said. Can you answer in any way better than just sheer denial? This question is completely rhetorical and meant to sway people through their own misgivings!
And can you answer the question how this question can be anything more than mere rhetoric in this day and age where everything gets politicized? It's rhetoric! It didn't work for the church and it won't work here. Don't even try to confuse it with logic! As if atheists and agnostics held the franchise on all logic.
Shame on atheists and agnostics for using the same vehicle to further themselves that they criticize christians of doing! Hollow! Very Hollow!
- 4 years ago
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thorstein
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thorstein
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"Is it logical to believe in [god]?"
This is a rhetorical question. I am not surprised that atheists and agnostics employ the use of rhetoric.
Everyone uses rhetoric when they have not gone after the facts themselves uses this! I call it lazy man's logic.
The persuasive effect of the question is, for me anyways, lost as well when the person you are answering no longer cares what they believe or why.
Someone tell me how this question can be considered anything more than rhetorical in this day and age.
A hollow question that purports to be logical and challenges others to be logical deserves a hollow answer.
My answer? Yes, it is logical to believe in God, and that would be implied by what anyone presupposes is true and however you use logic to validate what you are saying. Wake up people! Go take a course in propositional logic and find out for yourself! Presupposing is the logical step that everyone takes since every human being is capable of using logic simply because they are able to use language, in whatever form. What follows after that is what can easily be corrupted into what is "illogical" simply because a person doesn't use logical ways of organizing their thoughs and so often find themselves sounding illogical(which has almost nothing to do with truth as it does validity but there is some truth analysis but it is awfully hollow).
Everyone has a right to their own opinion as well which is completely beside the point of "logic." She has her own opinion which is why she and other atheists doubt. The truth is that their opinions ring hollow especially when times get tough.
And if you have doubt, I suggest you look into what you believe and why because doubt often leads to depression and irrational behavior, even suicide. You might want to even consider getting some help from a local christian church, because that is one of the services that they provide, helping people sort out what it is they believe in a logical way.
If you can't do that because you're afraid, then don't. Go see a shrink. But get some help. Don't do what this woman is doing because she does not resolve the question to adieu. She only creates more questions just like everybody else who doubts what they believe.
Let's just say doubting is illogical especially when you don't do anything about it to help yourself.
- 4 years ago
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thorstein
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ninepounds6
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There is no logic in turning water to wine, raising the dead, walking on water, burning bushes, parting seas, talking beaver felt hats, floating gold laws, or spaceships flying in the tails of comets.
Silly question.
Humans want easy answers for difficult questions, so we invent gods. No logic, just a simple answer.
- 4 years ago
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ninepounds6
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J_Jammer [removed]
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ninepounds6:
A mind all logic is like a knife all blade.
- 4 years ago
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J_Jammer [removed]
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SamuraiDave
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ninepounds6:
yeah, we just invented gods - exactly how did the concept of gods come about to begin with? hmmmm....?
- 4 years ago
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SamuraiDave
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Reeseismyname
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ninepounds6:
You could say the same thing about witches, SamuraiDave, or the Greek Gods. People have imaginations.
- 4 years ago
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Reeseismyname
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J_Jammer [removed]
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ninepounds6:
Be little people's thoughts is always the best way to go about proving yourself right.
- 4 years ago
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J_Jammer [removed]
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Reeseismyname
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ninepounds6:
belittling people's thoughts by saying they're belittling people's thoughts is a much better way to go though.
- 4 years ago
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Reeseismyname
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SamuraiDave
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ninepounds6:
that's a pat answer (not too mention lazy) that on the surface looks deep but in reality is only surface level. What is interesting that this imagination is across the board over the entirity of the globe stretching back tens of thousands of years
- 4 years ago
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SamuraiDave
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ninepounds6
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ninepounds6:
If there was no god, man would immediately invent one - Albert Einstein
It is in our nature, that is why it spans all time and culture, just like marraige, rulers, fighting, heirarchy, love, social behavior, etc, etc, etc.
Just because all peoples do it does not give credence to the authenticity of their gods. All peoples make up creation stories, so by your logic, they all must be real, when in reality, only one can be real.
- 4 years ago
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ninepounds6
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SamuraiDave
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ninepounds6:
again lazy answers that work going backwards but not forwards. We are handicapped intellectualy because the notions of gods, afterlives, ghosts, and what not have been part of our cultural consciousness for thousands of years so it's just too easy for us to say their origins just sprang spotanteously and all over the world by people wanting to believe in something.
I am more interested in the conceptualization process which gave rise to all this which lazy pseudo-intellectuals just discard as simplistic superstitions.
- 4 years ago
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SamuraiDave
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pdthorn
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ninepounds6:
Samurai, while you're shooting down answers as being lazy you aren't providing any yourself. Rather than reconciling the absence of answers by stating what interests you more please illuminate things by describing your theory on things.
And thus be open to have your opinions on such a topic be insulted.
- 4 years ago
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pdthorn
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rxqueen420
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the only logic is believing in yourself. You are the god of your own world. G-O-D...Gaining One's Definition.
- 4 years ago
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rxqueen420
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Reeseismyname
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It's not that believing in God is logical or illogical, but in fact it is out side the entire realm of logic, for it cannot be proved or disproved for every time an argument is given against god, it somehow strengthens a God believer's faith, and when an argument is given for God, it proves to non-believers that God does not exist.
I say that it is pointless to ask either way unless you want to be trapped in a never-ending cycle of critically analyzed confusion and it is better to just be happy while not hindering any other person's happiness while you're at it. - 4 years ago
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Reeseismyname
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mcwally
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there will always be this balance point in life..faith or doubt..logical or ilogical..god or devil..e.t.c.
The balance point is What you like to believe..so the process of life can always be Live..some call it God others may not..be Alive Though.
Grow-Or-Die... - 4 years ago
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mcwally
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SamuraiDave
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"If looking at this from a purely scientific view, the natural order and ways of how the universe came to be can exist without God"
uh, yeah just exactly how did the universe come into being thru the natural order? That seems like a leap of faith there to trust the theories of the day which maybe the laughing stock of future generations armed with better knowledge of the "nature" that is beyond our comprehension.
- 4 years ago
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SamuraiDave
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J_Jammer [removed]
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Something Positive about God? Really? Is this Current? Where am I?
- 4 years ago
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J_Jammer [removed]
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middle_east
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I personally agree and think that it is illogical to believe in God. If looking at this from a purely scientific view, the natural order and ways of how the universe came to be can exist without God (pretty much in agreement with flyingkick's statement.)
And, I also see very little "benefit" from believing in God. I understand that many people who do believe in God find comfort and security in the thought of an afterlife and good deeds etc., but, at what cost? Holy wars, colonialism, and an endless list of atrocities committed in the name of God throughout history all for what?
Lately, I've been seeing religion as a tool to create another binary which makes people hate one another. Binary oppositions seems to be what makes the world go round...and will probably be the same force which will end the planet.
- 4 years ago
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middle_east
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flyingkick
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Of course it's not logical to believe in God.
Logic is based on proofs.
If the existence of God could be proven, faith would be eliminated. Logic and faith are opposing.However, the world is not a logical place. And intelligent people do illogical things all the time.
- 4 years ago
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flyingkick
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unimatrix0
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No, it is not logical to believe in god. Occam's razor: one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything. Everything can be explained without God. Hence, God is superfluous and an illogical assertion.
Yet logic is empty. To say belief in God is illogical is not saying much.
I like what John Lennon said: God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
Ultimately I think belief in God is a mistake; a crutch for the weak of intellect or character. To face the truth and to dispense with the superstitions of the past
is the task of the mature. One is obligated to drag oneself out of the cave of religious shadow and into the light Yet only the strong make the journey.. - 4 years ago
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unimatrix0
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metalcookiesxy70
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Even though religion is faith-based, it can still be logical, for both nonbelievers and believers, to the non-believers, doubt is the key source and proof that this religion is not real, is pretty much logical..for the believers, their faith and the reference to the religion they are worshipping can be logical...reasoning with both the believers and non-believers can be logical as well...
- 4 years ago
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metalcookiesxy70