Church takes on atheism by embracing doubt

It actually says 144,000 people will enter heaven which the Jahovah's Witnesses take literally but anyone who has studied Biblical history when it comes to numerical value understands that 144,000 in the days of the Hebrews means infinite.........I like numbers

Where in the Bible does it say that? I've read it many times, it doesn't say anything like that. Are you referring to the Jehova's Witnesses' corrupt version of the Bible?

The 144,000 are the Elect, but heaven is not reserved for them exclusively.

Many scholars consider the 144,000 to be Messianic Jews. In Israel thereis around 14,000 as each year goes on the number does accelerate.

I do agree that Christians push people into religion. As i am a christian, it's funny the look people give me when they find out i'm a Christian, but the difference about me and my family is, we could care less if you're Christian or not. It's your life do whatever the hell you want to do with it. I hate to say something bad about my own religion, but people who do push people into Christianity and make speeches about how non believers are going to hell just ruined the name of Christians. Technically we're supposed to quote "plant the seeds" and let the person do the growing. Some people just go too far, yes.

I'd also like to add, however, that every Athiest friend i do have, if religion comes up, tries to talk me OUT of being a Christian and then gives me a million reasons why, and i give the same answer everytime. If there really is no God and we're all going to become trees, than what does it matter that I believe in something? If nothing will happen anyway? Just something i thought i should add...

I do agree that Christians push people into religion. As i am a christian, it's funny the look people give me when they find out i'm a Christian, but the difference about me and my family is, we could care less if you're Christian or not. It's your life do whatever the hell you want to do with it. I hate to say something bad about my own religion, but people who do push people into Christianity and make speeches about how non believers are going to hell just ruined the name of Christians. Technically we're supposed to quote "plant the seeds" and let the person do the growing. Some people just go too far, yes.

I'd also like to add, however, that every Athiest friend i do have, if religion comes up, tries to talk me OUT of being a Christian and then gives me a million reasons why, and i give the same answer everytime. If there really is no God and we're all going to become trees, than what does it matter that I believe in something? If nothing will happen anyway? Just something i thought i should add...

they can still be friends tho, right? meeting someone half-way and being civil towards one anothers beliefs sounds great and does not necessarily compromise either's view.

i don't think that there really is such a thing as a zero sum game, only those that think they are playing one.... all games can become win-win if we look at them correctly.

Of course a believer and an atheist can be friends - I don't think that was ever in doubt.

However, it does seem to be the case that either god exists or god does not exist; hence either the believer or the atheist is right.

Quantum physics does point to a possible multi-verse with multiple realities. One might imagine God existing in one but not the other. However, for god to exist in one reality and not another diminishes god's supposed omnipotence.

or neither is right because they are both vastly misguided.

or both are right because each moment everyone is simultaneously creating their own universe with a slightly different bend, and what makes the gears turn in one doesnt even happen in another. as they mesh together their is a cohesive WHOLE that works as many parts.

it seems arrogant for us silly talking monkeys to be able to make claims about god existing or not existing. knowing the ultimate truth and pointing fingers at those that have come to different conclusions is quite the step.

couldn't we all win?

Doubt is part and parcel of faith.

It's not a zero-sum game. Most people aren't fully one way or the other - a deity must exist or it must not. Even many agnostics acknowledge that a god may or may not exist. Doubt is natural and for some it causes them to no longer believe where just as for other it causes them to further investigate their own beliefs.

Faith isn't about a denial of doubt, but a belief that religion can answers many of the questions they about life and more. Doubt is the source motive for many to seek religion and also for many to leave religion.

it depends on the denomination. I think in some versions of the story every one who never heard of Jesus gets a chance to accept him after the second coming.

yes, sucks to be him/her

Certain passages in the New Testament indicate that everyone, without exception and regardless of religion or lack thereof, will be saved.

Yes, everyone will be saved, alowing as long as they've been a good person.

I believe in fact that the any one will be saved is untrue. Its like taking a verse, such as all Israel will be saved and then saying well Israel are all saved. While incontext the verse speaks prophetical of the gospel going back to the Jews at the end of the age and still man will have a choice.

As for the original comment. I am no thelogion but the bible does have grounds that men and women that have never had a knowledge of Christ living in a region far away will still be judged based by the actions of there heart.

As for unimatrix I am guessing the end time thelogy came from a book such as Left Behind.

Could you please give your one-liner some context?

It is not wrong to think about what you believe. It is wrong when people do so without giving good reason to. To do so just because is dangerous to the mind.

and the open ended statement begins

So who is poisoning who? I'm confused. Thinking about "what you believe" -just because- is perfectly healthy and important to development.

And the enlightenment begins.

Reply to J_Jammer:

I'm not sure that I can agree with Delia just because I am not sure to what extent she believes that it is ok to believe what we do 'just because' or without reasons (hopefully I am not misconstruing what she said). We definitely do not always have good reasons for what we believe because sometimes it is trivial, but I think that generally it is good to have good reasons for what we believe. I am more inclined to believe that we develop more by having more good reasons than no reasons for what we believe.

However, I agree with Delia's question. I think it would be helpful if you could state who is doing the poisoning and how what those people are doing is poisonous in the way that you believe it is. That's what I would like to hear as well.

I'm not sure how questioning what you believe is wrong even if you don't have a good reason. But, I will assume that it is. I am also assuming that you believe that atheists are wrong in questioning religion because they do not have a good reason to question religion. Well, actually, I think many atheists question religion for that same reason, namely that they don't think there are good reasons to believe religion. In this case, good reasons refer to physical evidence. Additionally, testimony does not count as physical evidence. If testimony is all that a religion has, then it is devoid of evidence. This means that atheists (as well as many other people) do not have good reasons to believe religion. Thus, they have a good reason to question it.

Anyway, please correct me if any of my assumptions, statements, or questions were invalid.

"In this case, good reasons refer to physical evidence. Additionally, testimony does not count as physical evidence. If testimony is all that a religion has, then it is devoid of evidence. This means that atheists (as well as many other people) do not have good reasons to believe religion. Thus, they have a good reason to question it."

Indeed- testimony, or "anecdotal evidence", is very subjective, relative stuff. Especially when it comes to religion and god- there are schisms throughout religion, even new ones happening right now in our society, based around the inconsistency of interpreting 'gods word'. Lack of physical evidence, inconsistent POVs from even the same faiths, religious hypocrisy, etc are all very valid reasons for questioning organized religion as well as god's existence.

I can't think of many other things that people believe with only anecdotal evidence to support it. If any other piece of our society worked that way, it would surely fall apart- could you imagine medicine, technology, industry etc surviving based entirely on faith or instructions handed down thousands of years ago?

My guess is that you watched TBN. Its probably the largest christian network but the most religous and there production values are real poor. You were not watching God TV as they don't air christmas programming, they have a good biblical understanding of there Jewish roots and Israel and are more Messianic Gentile while TBN is just a picture of the bible belt religous system, plus there telethons are extremely deceptive.

I was just annoyed at the transition from "Oh gee, Merry Christmas" to "Don't forget to convert people during the holidays!"

Sad to hear such a thing. I think Christmas is a good reason to celebrate the God of your faith, but the church really does lack understanding of its idenity. Look at Martin Luther, he burnt down synagouges and was a complete enemy to the Jews, yet the new testament actually shows the church its identity. It portrays the christian gentile as being grafted into the olive tree. The Natural Branch is the Jew and the wild branches are the gentiles, and the roots of the tree are Judiasm.

Yet christians have totally ignored this fact, they don't know the roots of the faith and much of christanity today is not going in the direction or has been going in the right direction for 2000 years. Jesus walked the earth according to the scriptures to remove the bondage of religion of the Jew and graft the gentile into the same relationship with God. But what most us see's as a religous system from Rome and America. A total abandon of there jewish roots of freedom from religion to a religious system and maniuplation.

I disagree with you, conversion tactics work great on alcoholics, speed freaks and other addictive personality types. There are lots of people who need something to cling to out there.

Sad to say, justright is correct. My boyfriend's mom used to be an alcoholic. So, to move from one addiction to another, she went from someone who was addicted to alcohol to someone who is now addicted to god. XD

I had another friend who went from alcohol to gum chewing (I dunno how that happened)

maybe its the "normal, loving people who believe in God" who should be making more noise eh?

"not really, he's simply doing what Catholics did with the catechisms. he's taking all the flaws that "skeptics" point out and he's coming up with BS to try and cover it."
* jh64487

Ah, but there you are, in your own words.

So, "damned if they do, damned if they don't?" Lol

not really, he's simply doing what catholics did with the catechisms. he's taking all the flaws that "skeptics" point out and he's coming up with bs to try and cover it.

He's not pointedly attacking the opposing beliefs. He's just encouraging openmindedness. He's not trying to rouse an argument, but encourage discussion.

(A person can't be tricked or mislead into Faith. Even one born into the "Church" must discover their own way through doubt, otherwise their faith isn't their own. An untested belief is no different than belief in santa claus or the tooth fairy. In fact it is exactly the same belief. "The unexamined life is not worth living." still holds true. Every true believer is a formidable advocate for his belief system because he has laid himself bare to the ravages of doubt and is yet still whole.

This argument never fades. Life is very short and the universe of man infinite in His variation. When one is honest with himself and his experience, unflinching in his desire for Truth however it may lead, then the journey is the destination, and Life is full of wonder.)

I bumped this from an earlier comment just to keep from retyping the same idea in other words.

I will add this though. Lumping Christians together is as un-PC as equating Palestine with Al-Qaeda. There are many different Christian belief systems and those who blindly condemn without basis in fact broadcast their ignorance to those who are more discerning.

"but how is this effective at getting to the core of an atheists logic when they aren't there to rebut them"

Actually it is very simple, ( I am not speaking for the article in question) the atheist logic in question is Aristotle's Logic. Using the tools of Reason to pick apart the Body of Faith. This alone is enough keep someone who is really seeking Truth busy for years and an outcome is not guaranteed.

Gandhi said something along the lines of "We need Logic, but we also need Poetry." Reason alone cannot answer all our problems or questions.

For those who disagree read "As the Driven Leaf" a work of fiction about a Jewish Scholar seeking to reconcile the mathematical purity of Euclid's Geometry with the Poetics of Faith. At least the Cliff notes and then we will talk.

A person can't be tricked or mislead into Faith. Even one born into the "Church" must discover their own way through doubt, otherwise their faith isn't their own. An untested belief is no different than belief in santa claus or the tooth fairy. In fact it is exactly the same belief. "The unexamined life is not worth living." still holds true. Every true believer is a formidable advocate for his belief system because he has laid himself bare to the ravages of doubt and is yet still whole.

This argument never fades. Life is very short and the universe of man infinite in His variation. When one is honest with himself and his experience, unflinching in his desire for Truth however it may lead, then the journey is the destination, and Life is full of wonder.

i don't doubt that.. however attempts to trick someone of a different faith or non religion are being carried out ..
an story here on current a week or 2 ago detailed christian missionaries in a largely hindu country deceiving children into belieiving in the christian god by faking a engine problem in the bus.. then first asked the hindu children to pray to their hindu gods to get the bus running.. no success.. then he asked the children to try praying to the christian god??? and low and belold .. the bus started?
anyway...growing up my christian parents and sunday school teachers used fear of painful damnation and burning in hell eternally to convince me to believe?
i guess you would say .. i doubt it.. i do like to ponder nature and the universe but have no need to believe in any certain thing .. i much prefer the wonderment