Free Health Care

stopnoise, I glad you responded. I appreciate your opinion but have to say I think you missed my main point. I agree we are all part of a society and as such have responsibilities towards that society. My point was that this woman chose not to contribute voluntarily by carrying a minimal amount of health insurance that appears would have been well within her financial means (she appears to have a very nicely furnished apartment, trip to Florida etc). The spin of the story is that she is a hapless victim without looking even a little bit at how she contributed to her current financial predicament.

Now that she is in this situation, of course it is the responsibility of the rest of society to address her medical needs and we are. It's just really annoying that we have to step up to the plate when she didn't.

Sometimes I wonder myself if is best just to leave people opinions alone so everyone can see the flaws of their speech that affect human character. But then we are talking about people's lives.

You see, in your speech, you represent something that is very wrong in the American thinking and was allowed in the past to pass because individuals like you cannot understand the simple difference between a product and a human being. If a person without any life experience read your opinion, he or she would be shocked and think you are probably right.

But we, humans have being around the circle of life a few times and we are able to see something you obviously missed in life. Ok let now analyze the flaws of your opinion:

You said:
First of all, there is no such thing as "Free" healthcare.

1. Free Health Care. That means that people want health care to be free from the hands of unscrupulous insurance companies pirates and gangsters and they want to be treated as a human being and not a product.

You said:
I am skipping what you are saying here because is just part of the problem

2. Can you understand that health care is a right and not a privilege?

You said:
HSA's are not unique to North Carolina and the cost of this plan is far less than the typical car payment. This woman has an MBA. She couldn't cough up $237/mo? She managed a trip to Florida.

3. Just think about you are saying here! I will let you figure out the absurd of your argument.

You said:
We are required by law to carry car liability insurance so irresponsible people can't choose to not pay for insurance and thus transfer their risk onto responsible people.

4. Ok! Now on your fourth argument comparison is where it gets beyond absurd -You are comparing an object, a car, a machine with a human being?
The comparison is ridiculous! If you do not want to pay for the obligatory car insurance you have an option to not drive the car.

You said:
Finally, healthcare costs are rising in large part due to advances in science and technology that offer cutting edge diagnostic and treatment options.

5. Finally you just went through the excuses and justification syndrome used by the industrial and financial world corporate executives to cover up all their corruption, over charges, jack up prices, administrative over head cost, executive bonuses and so forth.

Here is the idea! Suppose we have a population of 304,059,724 people and counting. Sure we have to exclude the new born, children, disable adults, elderly poor and so forth. Let say, hypothetically we have 280,000,000 people left.

How much would one have to contribute according to the level of their income so the American people would have health care for all? That is the question!

You are not a separated entity from the entire Nation how you would like to think you are. You live in a Country, a Community, a Society. You must contribute to the Community. This selfish idea of; "I do not want to pay for someone else." makes no sense in a Society.

First of all, there is no such thing as "Free" healthcare.

Secondly, this woman was taking a calculated risk by not having a high deductible catastrophic insurance plan. This is from an article titled "Who Else Wants To Pay Less For Their Health Insurance Plan?"

"A typical twenty-nine year old male and twenty-eight year old female in North Carolina would pay $237 per month for the Blue Options HSA plan. This plan has a maximum out-of-pocket expense, if either one has to be hospitalized of $5000."

HSA's are not unique to North Carolina and the cost of this plan is far less than the typical car payment. This woman has an MBA. She couldn't cough up $237/mo? She managed a trip to Florida.

We are required by law to carry car liability insurance so irresponsible people can't choose to not pay for insurance and thus transfer their risk onto responsible people. By not having a catastrophic plan, she transferred her risk onto the rest of us. She knew she had no insurance, gambled and lost. Now the rest of us (medicaid) are paying because she was irresponsible. I would be curious to know if the man in the story has since purchased a catastrophic plan.

Finally, healthcare costs are rising in large part due to advances in science and technology that offer cutting edge diagnostic and treatment options. These treatments require sophisticated equipment and training, not to mention the costs that went into the research and development that brought about the treatment in the first place. We all want the latest and greatest treatments but want someone else to pay.

That’s crazy. Even in my country, a third word-capitalist-far right-war affected-corruption paradise country we had health care for everyone.
And even if it’s hard to run the best service in a poor country where corruption drains the money, still gave my grandfather 15 years more after his heart attack and my grandmother get rid of cancer.

As much as I would love to see ithappen, ti won't. There are too many people making tons of money from sick American's. It sucks, but it is a fact.

Well I pay taxes NOW and god knows how many people ARE getting it yet I am not eligible. You know why?

1. I am not from another country.
2. I am not pregnant.
3. I am not under 18.
4. I am not over 65.

I sat and listened to a young co-worker PLAN HER CURRENT PREGNANCY around being able to get this benefit at the right time so she would not lose the benefits she gets for her current child. Pulllleeassse...use to be if you got pregnant you sucked up, made arrangements and paid the bill. I have heard several young girls (I don't mean 17 or 18 year olds, I mean 22 or 23 year olds)plan their pregnancies around this. I for one am tired of paying for it and she was very put-out with me for even mentioning it to her. Sorry. It is not a planning tool for having families! I really, really do not want to pay MORE taxes when I already pay.

I also wonder about the effectiveness, my sisters' in-laws lived in Canada and because it was so bad up there, the wait, quality of care, they came back to the US. So.....how would it be better here?

How much is dog food for three dogs a week?? When we start "demanding" what we deserve, this is the time we need to look at what socialized medicine can do. If one looks at Canada and Cuba (who has an amazing socialized medicine program) we can begin to see why the US has not pursued it with full force. We forget that it goes against what our capitalistic system has thrived on from the very beginning.

first of all thank you for your time, i could not agree more!

It is a beautiful dream to have wishing everyone to have Health Insurance. When you wake up, the reality is that the money is not around to cover everyone. And as you watch businesses and goverment who gives insurance to their employees, each year they quickly reduce what they will pay and the employees increase paying. Due to fraud and easy law suits on doctors and prices doctors ask for, this is a dream that can not be reach.

Hmm. Whose opinion should I consider worthy? The people who actually are provided healthcare by national systems or some guy who has delusions of Communist take-overs in the guise of healthcare for all?

there is no point in continuing a debate with a person who screams socialism every time government services are mentioned.

The statement "Lets not forget how poorly, medicare, medicaid, foodstamps and the other welfare programs are run". seems like an uninformed opinion to me. As a disabled person, I find Medicare, Medicaid and all those other evil programs work damned well. If it were not for these programs, I couldn't function at all. The variety of almost useless insurance offered by most employers would leave me without the surgeries and medications I require.

sure the military's supposed to be a non commercial entity but it sells the duties that used to be done by soldiers off to private contractors.
health care should be free. let's make a beautiful garden of humanity, not a sickly wasteland.

You seem to have this sweeping all encompassing idea that every single person in government is hopelessly evil and incompetent.

Well, actually, they aren't.

You mentioned personal responsibilities?

How is a genetic heart defect or just an ordinary heart attack a "personal responsibility"? In most cases a heart attack is a lot like a rape...it's a terrible thing that no one chooses or plans for. It's not a choice therefore it is not a personal responsibility in the traditional consumer-model.

Again, "health" is not a consumer product. You don't choose to have a heart attack or get breast cancer.

Hospitals cannot be run like a private business and insurance (health coupons as I call them) isn't the answer either.

We all agree the when it comes to non-consumer public welfare items (like public safety) that since the free market consumer model doesn't work you have to look at it as a non-commercial entity.

The police department is a non-commercial entity.

The fire department is a non-commercial entity.

The military (well, bad example) is a non-commercial entity.

Healthcare, likewise, is a non-commercial entity and must be FUNDED like a non-commercial entity.

Any othe funding model (such as using one identical to Wal-marts) is doomed to failure by escalating costs and diminishing service.

Trying to force Wal-mart's busines model onto a non-commercial entity like the police department or hospitals is doomed to financial failure.

crob

Lets not forget how poorly, medicare, medicaid, foodstamps and the other welfare programs are run. If the fire man doesn't show up the rich man is pissed. If the police do not show up, the rich man is pissed, but if some public school drop out, drug addict has to wait 3 hours for a case review that was scheduled for 8:00 AM and gets fired for being late to work again, who cares? Not enough of us. This is how the government treats people it is responsible for taking care of on any level. Remember the VA hospital? How about the fact that if the woman in this post earns more than $700.00, she's out?

This is the government you love so much. They build their bombs and when they run out of money they come running to you with their hand out. Give us your money and your freedom. In exchange we will take better care of you by eliminating more of your personal responsibilities.

Wouldn't be great if I could work for the government, do what ever they told me and in exchange all of my monthly financial worries would be taken care of by Uncle Sam? No mortgage, no utilities, all of the neighbors could just share a bunch of cars, "I know Lucy, the 16 year old next-door, will take care of the car as well as I would. And my house could be just like their house. When they couldn't get toilet paper I couldn't get toilet paper. That would be great. I could just decide to take what ever the government throws me after they are done playing war games with thee rest of the world governments.

WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!! Mother of all,… jesus, wtf do you not get? You are their economic engine. Every dollar you give them, they will use to kill you in their crazy little campaign for power and glory. Look at the last 2008 years of history and name some point in time when some political leader was not killing somebody in the name of nation or God. You can not do it! Powerful people will always fight for power and glory alone. And with no regard for the people they hurt along the way. Your participation in their election grandstanding, divisive infighting and blind faith makes you no more than useful idiots!

Enjoy the ride!

Actually, you can supplement your NHS in the United Kingdom with private insurance if you want. Some people do, but most don't because the NHS systems works so well it's unnecessary.

Wanna talk about reducing costs?

Step 1 -- switch to a tax-based system.

When a guy making $7/hr gets hurt and requires $75,000 of ER services and that patient can't/doesn't pay his outstanding bill....then the hospitals LOSES $75k. And THAT is why healthcare costs keep going up, because of the massive and ongoing patient defualt son their bills.

And what do they do to recoup that loss? They have to raises fees and costs on everyone else!

That's how hospitals in the UK and elsewhere are able to contain costs -- because they get funded by the government via taxation and aren't spending 99 percent of their time trying to squeeze blood from a stone by trying to get $7/hr workers to "pay up" on massive bills.

Almost all hospitals in the US run deficits. Permenanet deficits. They don't have a choice. They are required by law and morality to provide expensive life saving ER services to anyone that needs it....and then try like hell to get these poor workers to pay up on their $80,000 ER bills.

As you can imagine that's no way to run a business.

But then again, healthcare is not a business in any sense of the word and trying to force it to operate like one is bankrupting hospitals all across the country.

----

It sounds like you've already decided that all government is evil and that's the end of the discussion.

But the reality is that the government under nationalized healthcare just pay the bills. They aren't "controlling" anything like you seem to think.

You seem to have this idea that there is a Senator sitting at his desk personally reviewing CAT scans and screaming, "Refuse payment for this one! We've got a budget to meet!"

Well, first off --- has our government EVER been obsessed with reducing costs and keeping a tight belt? ha ha! Sorry, but it's just laughable to think of some Senator having an anxiety attack because the budget isn't balanced. If only! Have we ever had a balanced budget in how many decades? Ha ha!

No, much like the police, the fire dept and road construction there are no evil Senators or local politicans twirling their mustaches and saying, "Don't investigate that rape! It's too expensive!" or "Don't put out that fire! We're over budget and fire protection must be rationed out!"

It just doesn't work that way.

99 percent of the population only goes to the doctor for once a year checkups and when they absolutely have to. No one is going to the doctor (or calling the police or call the fire dept) for fun.

Doctors only order tests that they need. Under nationalized healthcare there is literally no point or benefit to order unnecessary tests. Why would they bother? It's just more work and it's pointless.

Just let hospitals function exactly as they are....but send the F'ing bills to government (so they can get paid) and not to the patients who can't pay them.

Send a $2,025 CAT bill to government -- it gets paid.

Send that same bill to a $7/hr worker and --- it doesn't. Or it takes 3 years to pay off.

Under national healthcare the hospitals meet their budgets and keep costs lows and its cheaper for the patients because taxes are cheaper than private insurance (again...our military is the most expensive in the world and what we pay in taxes for it is LESS than what we pay in premiums for Blue Cross every month)

@skagtrendy

Free means nobody pays for it. Britain does not have free healthcare they socialized healthcare. Your government taxes citizens for their healthcare and then attempts to manage the costs. Everybody gets the same one-size-fits-all coverage. You do not have the option of private healthcare, you can not subsidize the plan with private contributions and if you do, you could lose your benefits. Sounds great. I really like the idea of the people who would rather spend money on weapons than medicine in charge of my healthcare plan. I’ve changed my mind. Sign me up.

Crob, I think we agree that the insurance industry is at the heart of the problem.

As for the heart of your argument; police, fire and libraries are all local taxing districts. They have nice little set budgets and very seldom have any unforeseen expenses. Fire fighters put out fires, cops give speeding tickets, arrest pot heads and investigate horrific crimes after they have happened because they were giving out speeding tickets while my mom was being murdered. Just kidding. All are easily managed on a local or state level. You are talking about a national healthcare system involving an industry that is dependent on highly trained and qualified people to do things that the rest of the world is not trained to do and can not be trained to do in a few conference room training sessions.

The problem is how much it costs not who is paying for it. So if you would like to discuss ways to reduce the cost I would really like that. However, if you insist that the only solution is to let the entity (the government) responsible for making it this bad, have another crack at it, I will have to laugh and dismiss any further argument you may have on the subject. Because this line of reasoning is evidence that you were publicly educated in the zombie mills of the US and therefore are incapable of logical or meaningful thought. Just kidding.

But seriously, you really think that the government – realizing that the Left and Right are just different feet on the same ass that has been kicking the American people in face for decades—is the answer? How can you come to this conclusion. And if you say “not the democrats, they’ll do it better.” everything I said earlier about your education, will apply.

I tell you what, I will make you bet, for every story you can find online describing the virtues and wonders of socialized medicine in Canada, France or England, I can find ten citizens in that country to tell you how bad it sucks.

Here are three to get you started:

Reply to these posts so that I know you did your homework.

http://current.com/items/89307986_when_the_irs_is_running_the_icu

http://current.com/items/89308079_patients_abandoned_by_the_nhs

http://current.com/items/89308015_take_what_we_give_you_or_die

Just as a note to Agitator, in the United Kingdom there is free healthcare for all, our government actually spends more on the nuclear weapons programme than it does on the Health service. The National Health Service is the pride of Britain, it is run through public committees and government officials. So people are still in power and they have control over what goes on.

The NHS is not a "Commy" organisation and is not led by ego-fuelled "Reds." It is a public organisation in a Capitalist nation. Recently, the government has privatised some sections of the NHS with horrific consequences - for example due to privatisation standards of hygiene in many hospitals have gone down which has led to the growth of such Viruses as MRSA. Furthermore, due to privatisation visitors now have to pay to see their ill relatives and friends through ridiculously high car parking charges.

The fact is that in America, you can only get quality healthcare if you have money, but in Britain you get top quality healthcare no matter the size of your bank account or where you come from. Caring for the citizens of a country is the Government's job and it is what the people put them in power to do. It is morally wrong for businesses to make the care of fellow human beings into a business.

@agitator:

How much do you pay in taxes for the police?

Do you even know? Was it $300 a month (the average cost for a persons health insurance premium) or was it LESS than that?

How much do you pay in taxes for the fire department (which is at your disposal 24hrs a day 7 days a week, just like the police....no forms to fill out, no 45 mins waits, etc)? Was it $300 a month or was it less than that?

How much do you pay in taxes every month to support the most powerful (and expensive) military on planet earth? Is it $500 a month? No? You mean you DON'T pay $500 every single month to pay for the most expensive military on earth?

Well, what about you local public library? How much in taxes do you pay the library every month (via taxes) to provide all those books, magazines and free internet? $400 a month? No?

Well, yeah, but in order to check out a book you have to wait 2 hrs and fill out 15 pages of paperwork every time you.....no? You don't pay that much and you don't wait and you don't fill out any paperwork to get 10 books out of the library for FREE?

BUT you do pay at least $200 (or more!) a month in insurance premiums -- and even at that point you still have to pay co-pays and deductibles in ADDITION to the $200 you shelled out already. So under private insurance you pay more per year just for that than you do for police, fire, military, public school, roads and libraries all combined!

Combined!

And you think private insurance is cheaper than taxes when just paying for the insurance only (which doesn't cover ALL you medical needs in full) is more expensive than what you pay in taxes for the police, fire, military and library combined?

You go to the library and it works perfectly. Hell, my local DMV actually works perfectly too. And what I pay in taxes for those services are CHEAP compared to the rip off I pay in insurance.

Switch to a tax-based system (like police, fire and miltiary) and it'll be cheaper than the $200, $300 or $400 a month people are paying now. You'll save money. Most of that monthly payment is just going to profits and advertising anyway.

---

And as for medical school being expensive and that's why doctors need to charge a lot --- true! Which is why most countries offer free college education.

See when you have a for profit education system the costs go UP and not DOWN.

By extending public education to the university level a lot more people can afford to get an education. We don't do that which is why the US ranks so much LOWER than the rest of the world when it comes to an educated populace.

Yet another thing we need to change.

Just for a minute, imagine that you are the guy with a job who makes $4000.00, after taxes and insurance, this guy gets to take home $2800.00. Real number from just last month. Now imagine Obama knocking on your door and telling you that he wants another $300.00 to help pay for somebody else’s insurance. Now look him in the eye and say “man I only got $2800.00 for the rest of the month, I have to feed a family of 3, save for college, pay for my car, rent and gas and utilities.” You know what he is going to say? “just give me the $300.00., I’m headed up the hill to the nice houses, I’ll get you some money up there. I won’t be able to get it back to you today, if you will go down to the Office of Such and Such, fill out 45 minutes worth of forms, wait 2-6 hours and in 6 to 8 weeks, we’ll get you back $120.00. cool?” F no, I’ll keep mine you keep yours. Stop using your egomaniac politicians, mug hard working people. The only thing universal health care will accomplish is more power and money for the government and less control for people.

What are you smoke'n. Just because our government has been misappropriating our tax dollars for generation, we should do it again? Let me guess you are a liberal?

Here are some questions for you.

How much does med school cost?

How much debt does the typical med student incur before he is ready to open a private practice or go to work at a hospital?

How much does malpractice insurance cost?

What has the government ever done right?

You want to be a doctor who works for the government?

You want the DMV, IRS and ICU to be run by the same people?

Who has no EFing clue how things work?

Wake up! Your plan will increase costs, limit resources and make sure that no one ever goes to med school or a doctor again.

Where do people like you get your education? Moscow? Have you ever read one thing about economics?

The point? These dumb asses invaded other countries, bankrupted Wall Street and never got one damn thing right, now you want them in charge of your healthcare?

I have met some real pieces of work, but you… WOW!

Have you finished high school? I’m trying to help you find an excuse!

Powerful doc Ev, nice work. Scary, scary.... my stomach hurts now.

The only problem that I have with socialized healthcare is that I'm scared it may spur interest in the medical field.

Healthcare isn't a product and cannot be run as if it were a business. We need to abolish this private insurance/health coupon scheme and switch to a national system.

You can't have Midnight madness sales on chemotherapy. Why? Because it's not a consumer product.

Unlike the carpet commercials on TV -- hospitals are never "overstocked" on CAT Scans or rape kits or open heart surgeries. "C'mon down! We ordered too many life saving heart surgeries and we need to unload the inventory FAST!"

Health is not a consumer product.

Here's what needs to happen:

Hospitals need to treat anyone that needs healthcare.

The hospitals should send the bill to the government.

The government should pay it.

Just like we do with the police, fire department and military.

Some people always get hysterical and try to make the claim that if government pays the bills they will deny services and ration healthcare in order to save money.

S'funny -- has the government ever refused to invade a country like Afghanistan or Iraq because they though it might create a budget problem?

Nope!

Has any Congressman or State politicans ever told a police department to stop investigating all rapes or homicides because those types of investigations were too expensives and needed to be "rationed out" according to income level?

Nope!

Has any Congressman or State politicans ever ordered the fire department to stop putting out office building fires because those types of fires are too expensive and need to be "rationed" out via income level?

Nope.

So if the goverment doesn't "ration out" or deny services for the military, the police or the fire department.....why would they magically have to do it for hospitals?

Are hospitals actually more expensive than invading Iraq and Afghanistan or is this just a hystrical unfunded fear by Republican voters who don't really understand how things work?

I'm Scottish and having seen "Sicko" by Michael Moore and this video I am so grateful that in the UK we have the National Health Service.

As one of the wealthiest countries in the world, it is despicable that Americans dont have access to free healthcare, meanwhile Cuba has free healthcare for all, yet is widely viewed as a third world country.

However, in my opinion, Americans will never be able to access free healthcare until the politicians realise that "money is not everything" - it is this attitude which has led to America being reviled worldwide and it has to change.

I WORK ALL DAY, CLEAN HOUSE WHEN I GET HOME, THEN COOK DINNER, IF I'M LUCKY GET SOME BEFORE I PASS OUT AND DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN THE NEXT DAY ... WHEN AM I SUPPOSED TO STOP TRAFFIC AND DEMAND ...... LOL

This is our greatest problem. Baby Boomers are coming of age and Medicare will run out very soon. The entire system both private and government is in very bad shape. It doesn't matter what our philosophies are, it's going to be a problem for all but a very few at the top.

This problem is as complex as the war. It's no small matter. President Bush was hell bent on keeping Terri Schiavo alive but people die everyday waiting for care they cannot afford. A PRO LIFE society is a society that values medical care for all. We will never get it solved when we are all so fragmented and go from one thing to another with no focus on the most important thing in a civilized nation. Why has Sarah Palin NOT been asked this question?
Private Ibber

The majority of Americans want socialized health care
so why in the hell are we not in the streets demanding it.

It's so sad to see how a lack of universal healthcare affects people in America. Over the summer I watched Michael Moore's Sicko which all of you should see if you like this, and was shocked to see that there were even some underdeveloped nations with universal health care. We definitely need more documentaries like this.

we need more people like this .... more volunteers .... I have been in health care for 20+ years and it is sad when young people have a health crisis that they can't pay for.... it is so sad to see them not only suffer from illness but the stress from the bills ..... it's heartbreaking ... I my self have been experiencing pain in my foot for no reason, and don't have the money to go to a doctor .... I 'm scared of what might become of my foot if I don't seek medical advice ... I'm hoping that it is just arthritis but can't really tell ya with out a bunch of expensive tests .....well I'm done ...

This is a good thing to put out there, though this couple could probably just get rid of their three dogs and have the money for her meds.