God's Laws

I am GL ing it because That was a lot of reading. There some people who still follow these rules. Hard to keep up with the pace, though.

Check out my Pod: Adventures in Diving with D.J. Csaszar.

Just look for the Tiger Shark, he is the one eating the sinners who slept with their daughters and mother-in-laws.

Point taken. But the scroll is too long, and since cutting material out defeats your purpose, I can't see this working in this format. Quick thought: Do each directive as a near-subliminal cut, using color to make key words pop and holding on a few of the more telling, or outrages, items. More work on your side, but it'll deliver the same message in a tighter package.

I'm not sure that this format TV worthy myself but it was an outcome of the research I was doing for a future rant that takes on this issue so I thought I would at least let it be a web offering and get some feedback on the general direction it is going.

This was just Leviticus. There are also more laws governing people in Exodus, Deuteronomy and parts of the New Testament that I will be incorporating at that time too. It will probably be more of a "highlight reel" however.

I agree with your point that you can’t choose some of the laws some of the time, and insist that the world follow just the ones you have chosen today. ( I think that’s what you’re driving at.)

I’m not a fan of your chosen format, (all text), lost interest somewhere around Leviticus 13, but I know you’ll likely be changing it, and I agree, change it.

I’m curious though, are you taking a stand against religion, the excessive rules that some religions insist you follow or just those who preach one thing and then go off and break the rules they’ve been preaching about?

Looking forward to seeing the follow up.

asm

The point is as you see it.

There are hundreds of laws in the Bible from laws about basic morality to completely obscure and unreasonable laws that were designed for the people of a certain time and place. I have no quarrel with religion, I consider myself religious, but I DO have a major quarrel with hypocracy, dogma and fanaticism.

If you are going to hop up and down about the "word of God" and "man lying with a man as with a woman" then you got to start hopping up and down about the "word of God" and people having sex during menstration. . picking their apples before the tree is 5 years old. . killing our kids when they are rebellious backtalkers. . . or wearing cloth with 2 kinds of thread too.

Religious organizations want to make laws today "protecting marrage" based soley on Gay relationships when the "laws of God" regarding MARRAGE ITSELF like adultery and divorce, capital crimes in the Old Testiment, are completely ignored by all this "protection" legislation.

I agree that the text is a lot of work to read in a video. . .though a long ponderous list was part of the point. . . if they want to go there then they gotta swallow the whole pill.. that sort of thing. Just looking at the length of the list starts to make it all seem perposterous. That's the format dilemma I am facing at the moment. It's hard to show how crazy it all is without seeing how crazy it all is.

I'm still working on a better way of delivering the message and further research so that I can whittle things down more and fine tune things. I already dropped the dietary laws and the laws about how to make sacrifices. I will probably also drop a lot of the stuff about being ritually "unclean" because Christians believe that was all replaced through the sacrifice of Jesus.

That still leaves a lot left though and some of the stranger ones don't seem like they would qualify for that kind of exemption. I don't know why Christians believe that it's OK, for example, to plant a field with two kinds of seed. Or why they shouldn't cut a woman's hand off if she punches a man in the nuts while defending her husband (oops. . that's Duteronomy not Leviticus)

Great premise. I hope you go for a rant or other format that will blow the roof off. I know you can do it!

Well, looks like I'm going to hell. I couldn't keep up with the reading...either I'm slow or the text was a bit fast. :) Good message, GL from me.


Check out my piece and let me know what you think: link

BatBoy 27: Don't make pods where I have to read so much so fast.

Jesus himself was persecuted for performing miracles on a sunday. He spoke of a new covenant with God and the fullfilment of a promise on Earth that meant the betterment of mankind. Therefore he who has no sin can throw the first stone. That is an integral part of what it means to be a christian. Not that they can pick and choose what laws to follow but that they may be forgiven for thier sins regardless of their circumstances and that they may engage in a more free lifestyle than before Christ in regards to worship.

Then why is Homosexuality the number one issue that Christians seem to want to condemn these days?

Jesus doesn't mention Gays. The 10 commandments doesn't. You only find hard rules about this "sin" by looking through the same rules that govern what to eat and how to plant your field.

Paul also mentions homosexuality in an unflattering light while rattling off a list of stereotypical sins.

To hear Christians today there are plenty of them without sin because they are throwing stones at Gay people as fast as they can pick them up.

I believe Jesus would have sat and broken bread with Gay people just like he did with all the other kinds of people that weren't understood. I also believe he would have accepted them for who and what they were without insisting they need to be "cured" to be saved.

"Therefore he who has no sin can throw the first stone"… slow down.

The person with no sin, and adult... I'd like to meet them, what's their number? A lot of people have been expecting a visit for a couple of thousand years.

Now, I’m not particularly religious myself, but I’ve read the bible many times, I believe you need to know your debate. But here’s the thing, that in my opinion Christians don’t seem to get.

Jesus only had a couple of rules, love thy God, love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek and forgive the s%^t out of anyone who wrongs you. That’s it in a nutshell.

The 10 commandments weren’t from Christ, the rules of who you sleep with and the food you eat, and how you plant your crops didn’t come from the carpenter’s son either.

Today’s Christians aren’t being very Christ-like when they verbally assault someone for their sexuality, or worse their politics (I hate that). Christ, if you believe the bible, hung out with the tax collectors and the lepers, and hookers. (they were NOT without sin)

If he were walking the earth today, He’d be hanging with AIDS victims, helping to find a cure. He’d be telling the world not to torture people because they won’t give you the right answer. He’d be preaching peace, not division. And from what I can gather, He wouldn’t give a rat’s ass about your sexual orientation. (At least that’s what I got out of it)
Hell, he might even have forgiven the Enron boys; now that would be a test of His compassion.

The trouble, as I see most, if not all religions, (I’m not an expert on the topic) is that by their very nature they are themselves political. Too often the motive of the decisions made is not purity of heart, but control of the masses. What’s important is to have people believe what THEY SAY, not necessarily what is the reality of the day or what they do… hmmm that sounds familiar… but Plisko, I’ll leave that one to you… well for now, I have more to say on that topic too.

Peace be with you.

asm

Well the problem is that many of the oldest religions WERE the original form of government. One could even argue that religion gave birth to civilization as we know it.

When secular government evetually grew out of, or on top of, theocracy, religion still had all the political baggage attached in it's traditions and writings. I believe that is much of what we see in these parts of the Old Testiment. Historical documents, health and hygene laws, moral codes, insructions about rituals etc etc.

The problem with the new testiment is that it seems like Jesus wanted something new to come out of the old, but the later evangelists seemed intent on making the new and old fit together as one. What you end up with is contradictions.

One the one hand we have the prevailing view that the old laws have been done away with in exchange for a new personal relationship with the creator that will guide us with "laws" written in our hearts. . . yet. . on the other hand. . we have people quoting Leviticus and hanging up the 10 commandments as a sign of being a good Christian.

This is the flaw, as I see it, in the Christianity that we finally ended up with.

The early evangelists had to deal with two main categories of people: followers of Mosis and followers of Isis. Paul worked on the Isis side of the neighborhood and Peter and James worked on the Moses side. They each preached Jesus in a way that would be approachable to their constituents. Then, 300 years later, Constantine, the Emperor of Rome, get's the descendents of both groups together and forces them to make it all into one consolidated religion.

Now, today, you have half the US population saying that the results of all this, and 1700 more years of baggage, is a book that is the unquestionable word of God down to the last word and punctuation mark. You have people worshipping the words in the Bible as if they are God.

I've got a very strong opinion for those people:

The highest offense you could ever commit, according to much of the Bible, is to create an IMAGE and call it the image of your God.

Words are an Image just as much as a statue is. People didn't always read. Statues and symbols were early ways of pointing to something and saying "That is how my God presents his self." Did anyone ever ask why Jesus didn't write? Maybe he also had that view. I don't think he was illiterate. . being the son of God and all. . just wiser than us.

Would make great podcast with or without pictures, with the effect of Vocal presentation and impact of THE WORD!

I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't supporting th hipocrisy of the people who staunchly stand by the text while ignoring the more unerving scripture I am merely stating that the real Christian teaching doesn't lend itself to bashing anyone and that its for this very reason its openness and the scope of forgivenes implied that Christianity is accepted all over the world as a positive force. My Church is celebrating its mission program this week. They have not just saved souls but lives. In Liberia this year they use only thier American citezenship and international profile to protect thousands of refugees there. Our offering plates give them food, clothing. Some of our other missionaries have bene improsined or persecuted and it is not our mandate to then in our own country to do the same.

NEW TESTAMENT: ROMANS 1:16-2:6 I am not ashamed of the Gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first the Jew, then the Gentiles. For in the gospel a righteounes form God is revealed, a righeousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous live by faith."
The wrath of God is being revealed form heaven against all godlessness and wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-His eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For athough they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God or gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became like fools and exchanged the glory of the imortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinfule desires of their hearts to sexual impurity forthe degrading of their bodies with one another. THEY EXCHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD FOR A LIE, and worshiped and served things rather than the Creator-WHO IS FOREVER TO BE PRAISED. AMEN.
Because of this, GOD GAVE THEM OVER TO SHAMEFUL LUSTS. EVEN THE WOMEN EXCHANGED NATURAL RELATIONS FOR UNNATURAL ONES. IN THE SAME WAY THE MEN ABANDONED NATURAL RELATIONS WITH WOMEN AND WERE INFLAMED WITH LUST FOR ONE ANOTHER. MEN COMMITED INDECENT ACTS WITH OTHER MEN, AND RECIEVED IN THEMSELVES THE DUE PENTALTY FOR THEIR PERVERSION.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwile to retain the knowlege of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not be done. The became filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanders, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but approve of those who practice them.
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgement on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgement do the same things. Now we know that God's judgement against thosewho do these things IS BASED ON THE TRUTH. So when you, a mere man, pass judgement on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? OR DO YOU SHOW CONTEMPT FOR THE RICHES HIS KINDNESS, TOLERANCE AND PATIENCE, NOT REALIZING THAT GOD'S KINDNESS LEAD YOU TOWARD REPENTANCE? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath when His judgement is revealed. GOD "WILL GIVE TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE."
WHEN CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, A NEW CONVENANT WAS MADE WITH US AND IN TURN HE FULFILLED THE OLD TESTATMENT LAW SO THAT WE WERE NOW LIVING UNDER HIS GRACE. FOR THIS WE NOW HONOR HIM BY LOVING AND SERVING WITH OUR WHOLE BEING BY LIVING HOLY AND PURE LIVES AND NOT DEFILING WHAT HE HAS MADE. THAT MEANS EVERYTHING HE HAS MADE. HE IS OUR CREATOR AND WE ARE TO HONOR HIM. WE ALSO LOVE THOSE HE CREATED NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE AND KNOW THAT GOD HAS PURPOSE FOR THEM AS WELL. SOME HAVE JUST BEEN DECEVIED BY THE THINGS OF THIS WORLD AND LIVE IN "DARKNESS". THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE LOVE THEM LESS, JUDGE THEM OR IGNORE THEM. THEY ARE THE ONES THAT CHRIST DIED FOR, LIKE MYSELF. LUKE 6:31-32 JESUS SAID "IT IS NOT THE HEALTHY WHO NEED A DOCTOR, BUT THE SICK. I HAVE NOT COME TO CALL THE RIGHTEOUS, BUT SINNERS TO REPENTANCE.

What I'm hearing is this:

Jesus fulfilled the old laws so we are now living under his grace instead.

However, in order to know what he wants we have this book full of things you should and shouldn't do.

Is that about right?

It seems pretty odd to me that Jesus came to fulfill the law and accept us under his grace, yet we must go through the laundry list of sins outlined in the law to know who God has "given over."

Even Paul goes on to say in the rest of Chapter 2 in Romans:

"14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)"


Here we have an admission that even people who do not have access to the laws can demonstrate that the law is written in their hearts.

Does that mean that they naturally follow the specifics of the law such as "take a bath after sex" and "don't sow a field with more than one seed?" Or do we now speak of higher more fundimental laws of goodness?

In 2 Corinthians 3:6 Paul says:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Even the Old Testiment says similar things:

Deuteronomy 30:11-14

"For this commandment which I command you this day is not too difficult for you, nor is it far off.

It is not [a secret laid up] in heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to heaven and bring it to us, that we may hear and do it?

Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear and do it?

But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your mind and in your heart, so that you can do it."

Jesus said in Luke17:20-21

"Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."


I wonder if we are interpreting these things differetly or the same.

What I read is that the law is something above and beyond the words in the Bible and is, in fact, written in our hearts. This is a place where only God can judge us.

Therefore, to use the Bible in such a way that you align the "will of God" against one of God's children (in this case a gay person) is blasphemy.

NO, A MAN IS A JEW IF HE IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART, BY THE SPIRIT, NOT WRITTEN CODE. SUCH A MAN'S PRAISE IS NOT FROM MEN, BUT FROM GOD. ROMAN 2:29

GALATIANS 5:1-26 -6:1-7 FREEDOM IN CHRIST
IT IS FOR FREEDOM THAT CHRIST HAS SET US FREE. STAND FIRM, THEN AND DO NOT LET YOURSELVES BE BURDENED AGAIN BY A YOKE OF SLAVERY.
MARK MY WORDS! I, PAUL, TELL YOU THAT IF YOU LET YOURSELVES BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST WILL HAVE NO VALUE TO YOU AT ALL. AGAIN, I DECLARE TO EVERY MAN WHO LETS HIMSELF BE CIRCUMCISED THAT HE IS OBLIGATED TO OBEY THE WHOLE LAW. YOU WHO ARE TRYING TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW HAVE BEEN ALIENATED FROM CHRIST; YOU HAVE FALLEN AWAY FROM GRACE. BUT BY FAITH WE EAGERLY AWAIT THROUGH THE SPIRIT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR WHICH WE HOPE. FOR IN CHRIST JESUS NEITHER CIRCUMCISION NOR UNCIRCUMCISION HAS ANY VALUE. THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS IS FAITH EXPRESSING ITSELF THROUGH LOVE.
YOU WERE RUNNING A GOOD RACE. WHO CUT IN ON YOU AND KEPT YOU FROM OBEYING THE TRUTH? THAT KIND OF PERSUASION DOES NOT COME FROM THE ONE WHO CALL YOU. "A LITTLE YEAST WORKS THE WHOLE BATCH OF DOUGH." I AM CONFIDENT IN THE LORD THAT YOU WILL TAKE NO OTHER VIEW. THE ONE WHO IS THROWING YOU INTO CONFUSION WILL PAY THE PENALTY, WHOEVER HE MAY BE. BROTHERS, IF IAM STILL PREACHING CIRCUMCISION, WHY AM I STILL BEING PERSECUTED? IN THAT CASE THE OFFENSE OF THE CROSS HAS BEEN ABOLISHED. AS FOR THOSE AGITATORS, I WISH THEY WOULD GO THE WHOLE WAY AND EMASCULATE THEMSELVES!
YOU, MY BROTHERS, WERE CALLED TO BE FREE. BUT DO NOT USE YOUR FREEDOM TO INDULGE THE SINFUL NATURE; RATHER, SERVE ONE ANOTHER IN LOVE. THE ENTIRE LAW IS SUMMED UP IN A SINGLE COMMAND: "LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." IF YOU KEEP ON BITING AND DEVOURING EACH OTHER, WATCH OUT OR YOU WILL BE DESTROYED BY EACH OTHER.
SO, I SAY, LIVE BY THE SPIRIT, AND YOU WILL NOT GRATIFY THE DESIRES OF THE SINFUL NATURE. FOR THE SINFUL NATURE DESIRES WHAT IS CONTRARY TO THE SPIRIT, AND THE SPIRIT WHAT IS CONTRARY TO THE SINFUL NATURE. THEY ARE IN CONFLICT WITH ONE ANOTHER, SO THAT YOU DO NOT DO WHAT YOU WANT. BUT IF YOU ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT, YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW.
THE ACTS OF THE SINFUL NATURE ARE OBVIOUS: SEXUAL IMMORALITY, IMPURTIY AND DEBAUCHERY; IDOLATRY AND WITCHCRAFT; HATRED, DISCORD, JEALOUSY, FITS OF RAGE, SELFISH AMBITION, DISSENSIONS, FACTIONS AND ENVY; DRUNKENNESS, ORGIES AND THE LIKE. I WARN YOU, AS I DID BEFORE, THAT THOSE WHO LIVE LIKE THIS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
BUT THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, GOODNESS AND SELF-CONTROL. AGAINST SUCH THINGS THERE IS NO LAW. THOSE WHO BELONG TO CHRIST JESUS HAVE CRUCIFIED THE SINFUL NATURE WITH ITS PASSIONS AND DESIRES. SINCE WE LIVE BY THE SPIRIT, LET US KEEP IN STEP WITH SPIRIT. LET US NOT BECOME CONCEITED, PROVOKING AND ENVYING EACH OTHER.
BROTHERS, IF SOMEONE IS CAUGHT IN SIN, YOU WHO ARE SPIRITUAL SHOULD RESTORE HIM GENTLY. BUT WATCH YOUR SELF, OR YOU ALSO MAY BE TEMPTED. CARRY EACH OTHER'S BURDENS, AND IN THIS WAY YOU WILL FULFILL TH LAW OF CHRIST. IF ANYONE THINKS HE IS SOMETHING WHEN HE IS NOTHING, HE DECEIVES HIMSELF. EACH ONE SHOULD TEST HIS OWN ACTIONS. THEN HE CAN TAKE PRIDE IN HIMSELF, WITHOUT COMPARING HIMSELF TO SOMEBODY ELSE, FOR EACH ONE SHOULD CARRY HIS OWN LOAD.
DO NOT BE DECEIVED: GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A MAN REAPS WHAT HE SOWS.

AND IF YOU ARE QUESTIONING THE VALIDITY OF THE BIBLE, "THE WORD", IT'S DIVINE ORGIN, IT'S INDELIBLE SPIRIT AND IT'S LASTING IMPACT SEE:
DEUTERONOMY 8:3
ISAIAH 55:11
PSALM 119:9, 11 & 105
PROVERBS 30:5&6
JOHN 1:1
HEB 4:12
2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17
REVELATION 22:18-19

First of all, I'm not going to continue to have a conversation with someone who feels like they need to speak in all caps like they are shouting at me.

As for your long quotes from Paul's letters:

Galations 5:6

"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

This is interesting. Here Paul is saying that circumcision is irrelivent. To the Jews, circumcision is just as much the Law as the ban on sodomy or adultry. Circumcision is commanded by God. (Genesis 17:11)

Paul may as well have been saying:

"For in Christ Jesus neither sodomy nor lack of sodomy has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

Moving on:

Galations 5: 13-15, 18-21:

"13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."
. . .

"18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

This is classic Pauline double talk. Circumcision, as formerly commanded by God (Genesis 17:11) , has no value to Christ. The only thing that counts is expressing faith through love. In fact, if you are lead by the spirit you are not under the law. The whole of the law is summed up as "love thy neighbor as yourself" . . However. . . follow the rest of the laws or you will have a sinful nature.

Here's another Circumcision quote from Paul:

1 Corinthians 7:19:

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts."

LOL. Circumcision IS GOD'S COMMAND (Genesis 17:11) Jesus himself was circumcised. Lets use the same logic to change the quote and see how it sounds:

"Homosexuality is nothing and hetrosexuality is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts."

That works for me. Christians should stop biting and devouring homosexuals and just keep God's commandments which are summed up as: "love your neighbor as yourself". Just like the guys who were biting and devouring each other over circumcision needed to shut up and love each other back then.


Finally, I looked up the passages you provided that "proved" that the Bible was the word of God:

Deuteronomy 8:3 
Isaiah 55:11 
Psalm 119:9, 11 & 105
Proverbs 30:5&6

If the word is "written in your hearts" (Deut 30:14, Rom 2:15, Rom 10:8) and the "Kingdom is within you" (Luke 17:21) then all of these passages could also refer to the unwritten word that Jesus represents in John 1:1.

Hebrews 4:12 - see above
Timothy 3:16-17 - Calling scripture "God Breathed" and "Useful" almost seems like it is downplaying it if you ask me.

Revelation 22:18-19

"18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

That's just intellectually dishonest. He is talking about the book of Revelations that he is writing, not the Bible which didn't even exist then. This is also a classic literary device of the time period. You can see it in other apocrypha from the same era.

Dear Mr. Plisko,
I am terribly sorry. I only wrote in caps, it was just easier with all the typing I was doing. I was only trying to say that if we are trying to please God, we do not worry about what other men say about us. Also, if we are led by the Spirit of God, then it is our hearts that are changed from with in us then we know what we are to do.( 2 Cor 5:17) That goes for all of us......those of us that claim to know God should never critize anyone for who they are. We are to love everyone and, yes, not back bite or devour one another, no matter who or what we are. God made us all. I John 4:18 Say: There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment...... And 1 Peter 4:8 says; Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers a multitude of sins.
God sent His son, Christ who died as a sacrifice for our sins so that we do not have to go through all the old testament rites in and make blood sacrifices and go to the priest who then takes them to the holiest of holies and goes through the vale for us. All that was done when Christ died and now all we have to do is ask for His forgiveness and claim Christ as our Lord, believing that He was raised from the dead and now sits at the right hand of the Father(God) interceeding on our behalf everday! He loves us that much! We should love Him with everything have and are. The sacrifices we make today are our wills and our lives to Him. Is that too much to ask for what He has done for us? We can be free and have eternal life. What a bargain! Huh? He is very merciful and gracious. As we should be. I personal want to be like Him. As should all Christians.
I do not mean to offend you. I am not a learned scholar of the Bible. I am a delivered drug addict and alcoholic that now works with others through a recovery program. I have been there and done that. I am not trying to battle out with you at all. I just was trying to give you scritpture from my heart that spoke to me about what has happen in my life that has change me and given me the compassion and love and opened my eyes, We are all very different and we have different opinions and vew points. It is okay. Ii is also okay to share. I pray that I may have enlightened you in some small way. If not it was still my pleasure and by the way, I put your video on myspace, so it got some more air play. you can visit me there at www.myspace.com/sherriluvsjcandfsu
I do wish you the best of luck in all your ventures. Peace and blessings to you.
In the service of my King,
Sherri Holmes

Sherri,

I am glad you chose to speak from your heart and I appreciate it very much. I admit that I was confused about your intentions. I think I was thrown off by the caps and the fact that you didn't say much beyond the Bible quotes. The fact that the quotes included things like men and woman committing sexual immorality etc also had me confused about the reasons you had for presenting them.

In case you are unaware, most internet conversations would rather you typed in all lower case rather than all caps. Caps are most commonly perceived as shouting or used for short emphasis. My handwriting is all caps, ironically, but text is perceived differently when in cyberspace. Text here is often used to help fill the role of missing face to face expressions. :)

You may also want to bookmark this link:

www.biblegateway.com

It is a great online Bible resource that you can use to find passages or keywords for bibles in like 50 different translations and a hundred languages. You can then copy and paste from there rather than needing to type everything out yourself.

The passages you shared did provide me with inspiration. I did not notice the striking paralel between the old controversy about circumcision and the new controversy about homosexuality until this very conversation. This may become the crux of the video presentation I am developing based on the fruit that this page yealds. So thank you.

To me, the theology says BOTH of these subjects were orignially commanded in the Old Testiment and BOTH of them have been replaced by the new covenant. Paul is bound by his own theology on this matter regardless of what he may say in other letters when he rattles off the stereotypical "sins".

We are free. There is no more "yoke" determined by other men, about what God wants from us. God is our judge and nobody else. Not Paul, not Peter, not Pat Robertson or Ted Haggard. Many examples of the "sinful nature" expressed by Paul could be placed in a context where it might possibly be appropriate as judged by God. Only God would know.

So when men or women try to tell me what God does or does not want, it is blasphemy to my ears. What we have in the Bible is "God breathed" not God commanded. It provides history and perspective about God's nature, not a hard list of virtues and sins. The owners manual, according to Paul's own Christian theology, has been replaced by the grace of the Christ.

I hope my perspective has provided some benefit to you as yours has to me.

Thank you.

Thank you for that information. Do not know all the proper "etiquette" in these things. I am learning, which I love to do. I study my Bible and I am in college at the age of 41. Late- bloomer but I am getting there. By the way, I have www.biblegateway.com on myspace. I, however, like the more tradition way. I have about 5 different translation here right now, with 4 study versions. Somehow I the scripture speaks to me, because I am not reading so much to analyze, but to know more about Jesus and His nature. This is because as a Christian, I want to be more like Him. Hence, the name Christ-ian. That is why when I was ready the same text as you, I read something completely different. You read more like you are chewing it up and spitting out and looking at it again to see what you've got. I take it in, chew on it, injest it, savor it and digest it, letting it become a part of me so that I learn what GOD WANTS ME TO BE;) This is how it is suppose to be for every individual, that is how God speaks to us, not in some loud booming voice. Paul was used of God and had lots of wisdom. His teachings were a guide for us to live by but he was saying if we are "led by the Spirit". Paul had his own "thorn in the side" to keep him humble. Believe you me, he knew what it was to deal with the law and the flesh and sin everday. He was not barking out orders, he was just trying to give the people standards by which to live. That is law. But our hearts will tell us to honor God. David wrote in Psalm 119:9 (long before Paul) "How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word. I seek you with all my heart; do not let me stray from your commands. I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you." This is what I am doing when I read my Bible and try to live according to what I learn and God teaches me. My church and Bible studies only help me to dig deeper and you as well have helped me in that.
Please read these scriptures: Rom 7:7-25-8:1-11/Rom14/1 Cor 10:1-22/Isa 28:11-16 They are more of Paul's writings (unfortunately? )but try to look at them as if someone else was writing them as letters of instruction or a guide. Not barking orders in your face. You have to remember. Paul was a terrible sinner, (like I was). He was persecuting and killing Christian but he was completely converted! It says in Luke 7:47 that "He that is forgiven much loves much". So I image Paul had alot of love and passion in his heart and the right motives. He was not trying to throw down on these folks or us for that matter. He was there to bring the Good News(Jesus) to the Gentiles and to instruct them in building churches. He was only doing what GOD HAD PUT IN HIS HEART. Also, remember all Paul new growing up was "the law" so now here he is with whole new concept! I image there is alot of it that seems to cross over and back, to you. But Paul was also discipled by the "12" themselves that had walked with Jesus and he had been called by God himself on the road to Damascus. You talk about his "theology" as if he had gone to seminary today. This was a learned man but he was teaching some thing totally foreign(Jesus) to him that he had not grown up with so it had to be inspired by God, since God call him to do it. He suffered beatings and imprisonment for the sake of the Gospel. You know I understand why you made the video based on some of the legalist views of some of the churches today. They have gone over board! I fortunately attend a church that is Spirit filled and we do not adhere to those views. We do not "command" anyone on how to live. We just preach the Word and love one another. How you live your life is up to you and God. I believe Paul would have felt the same way. No one can command anyone to do anything we are "freewill' agents! We are not slaves and nor animals! Yes, this has been informative as well as enjoyable to meet you! =-) butterfly71765@earthlink.ne

We're probably getting into territory that could very easily extend beyond the scope of this particular thread.

I will just say that I read scripture in different ways depending on the context of the situation. Chewing something up and spitting it out to see what is there is also known as critical thinking and I view it as an asset. Once you know what is there, then you can see what is worth swallowing and digesting and what is just bones and grizzle.

I talk about "Paul's theology" because that is what it is. Paul took the message of Jesus and found various specific meanings in it that became the foundations of the Christian religion we know today. Paul was very good at expressing the message of Jesus but I don't believe that he ever intended for his letters to his fellow early Christians to become scripture. That was done about 260 years later by bishops of a later church.

I will meditate on Paul and I will ponder the meanings he expresses so well but I will never accept that Jesus walked in life for 3 years with 12 men and then decided after he died that he would just zap the gospel into a new guy that never met him and base his whole church on the meanings that the new guy comes up with.

It wasn't all rosey between Paul and the Apostles either. There is written evidence of tensions between them. In fact, if I recall, Paul's title of Apostle is actually self proclaimed. . I'm not going to say he is not an imporaint figure who was a very inspirational thinker and writer. I just think that Christians quote Paul more than Jesus and that is disturbing. Check for yourself sometime. Count the Paul quotes then count the Jesus quotes.

Anyway. It has been nice talking to you and if you want to continue on a broader subject you can look me up at Plisko@aol.com

Well shit....I JUST bought this fabulous Cashmere/Cotton blend crewneck!

Great post.

I think there's actually something in the bible that suggests that there would be a prophet after Jesus named something like Mohammed.

It's not something that is advertised much these days.

The so-called Bible was written AFTER Jesus's lifetime. Many, many years after he was gone. Why does everyone think this is the 'literal' Word of God? Roy has made a powerful statement by bringing this to our attention and I applaud him for it. GL for sure.

Hi Plisko,

Despite our initial disagreement on this particular pod, I hope you can find it in your heart to give me a GL on UK Current ...

link

["Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts."

LOL. Circumcision IS GOD'S COMMAND (Genesis 17:11) Jesus himself was circumcised. Lets use the same logic to change the quote and see how it sounds:

"Homosexuality is nothing and hetrosexuality is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts."]

You should try to read all of Pauls letters and the whole New Testament to see that is not the case. The Law (I specifically refer to the Mosaic Law which served a covenant between God & his then chosen people, the Jews) was abolished and replaced by the Law of Christ, the whole of which is summed up in love. It is over simplification to say that "love God & your neighbor" was literally the only Law left though it rightly summarizes it. Rather, it was to be the underlying principle behind all Christian laws.
Most parts of the Mosaic Law were reiterated and expanded for Christians. Paul used the word "porneia" in describing immoral acts that Christians should shun. The New Testament Greek Lexicon defines porneia as:
-illicit sexual intercourse adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11, ---metaph. the worship of idols, of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols.
As for the issue regarding circumcision, God gave apostle Peter a vision in which he was told to eat animals formerly deemed unclean for food consumption by the Law -Acts 10:9-16 When Peter cited the law on food, he was told not to call unclean what God has called clean. It was both literal and symbolic as later expounded that it was God's will to extend his grace to uncircumcised Gentiles formerly called unclean, and the invitation opened for them to be part of the "spiritual Israel"--the fleshly Israel being rejected because of its rejection of God's Son(of course the invitation was open for them first). This was highlighted by the conversion of Cornelius the Roman centurion and his family through Peter.
It also had literal meaning to the issue regarding food. As Paul states in Romans 14:14, foods are not unclean in and of themselves. While God has given rules concerning food in the past, they were laws intended to serve a particular purpose at a particular time, not moral absolutes. The laws given to the Israelites concerning food were in force during the time of the Old Covenant, not before and not after.
People often view Paul's teaching on foods as contradictory to Jesus' teaching, particularly Jesus' statement that he was not coming to abolish the law. Yet Jesus himself pointed out that the ceremonial aspects of the law were only ceremonial in Matthew 15:10-20:
Jesus said, "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" When Peter ask Jesus to explain, he asked them. "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'" Jesus actually went to the root of the matter --the heart. Immoral thoughts precede immoral acts.
I disagree about the supposedly Paul's double talk on circumcision issue & homosexuality--as you put it. Firstly, in the circumcision issue, it was to Peter not Paul who God first revealed its importance or none importance for Christians. Secondly, it was Christ himself who reiterated the laws regarding immorality and expanded it to include immoral thoughts and desires. Paul simply exhorted Christians about things most of them already knew.

I must add that I agree though how hypocritical it was for people to vehemently insist that certain laws be followed and disregard the bigger, more important ones because these were not to their liking, harder to follow or they simply felt these did not suit them.

In a way your presentation points this out.
~Katotoy link

I don't know if you are tracking this thread but thank you for giving such a detailed explination of this issue.

Without going deeper at the moment into the actual verses you are refering to I will say that, if Peter's vision was extrapolated in such a way that it includes the relief from the circumcision covenant then it also, by logical extension, relieves the "uncleaness" of homosexuality that is based on love and committment.

I realize that most Christians consider homosexuality immoral period. . . but it is still an intimate relationship between people. . and the same kinds of moral questions and decisions exist within homosexual relations as with hetrosexual ones.

As you point out, Jesus says it is what comes from the heart that matters. . not physical or "ceremonial" representations of what is "clean" and what is not.

The thesis that I submit here is this: If Christians can extrapolate away dietary restrictions and a direct contract with GOD regarding circumcision, then the exact same logical arguments they use to do that can be applied directly to homosexuals that follow Christian principles when it comes to the relationship itself.

There are a few good resaons why this might not have gotten anywhere:

1) The high illiteracy rate