Sometimes you have to torture

It simply doesn't work. To be for it is sick.

Torture is watching this video - it's like someone took a list of right-wing talking points, put them in a blender and gave them to this guy to, "you know", read. First of all, the President of Iran never said he wanted to "nuke" America. Even if he had, they are years away from having a nuclear weapon and there is no evidence they are building one - the nuclear fuel they have refined thus far is only pure enough to be used in a nuclear reactor, only a fraction of the purity needed to be used in a bomb. Second, you need to educate yourself about Iran's political structure. Just because the guy has the same title as we use for our Commander In Chief, "President", it doesn't mean he has the same powers. The only similarity between the President of Iran and our current President is that they are both religious zealots who believe that God put them in power to bring about Armageddon. But unlike our President, the President of Iran doesn't have the authority to call military strikes - that power lies in the hands of Iran's religious leaders who are quite happy living lives of luxury. If they were to attack the U.S. or Israel, they would be crushed and they know it. It serves them much better to maintain the status quo and continue telling the masses that all their problems come from the "Great Satan" and Israel.

Perhaps if we still taught History in our schools, more of our citizens would understand why we were attacked. And maybe if they still taught Civics, more of our citizens would understand the value of our Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the separation of powers and the concept of checks and balances. This is the real world where the actions we take have consequences that can carry on for decades, even centuries. All the bad guys aren't going to get rounded up or blown away at the end of the season like they do on "24".

Torture is just used to intimidate the people its not happening too
It would never solve anything for either side

he said "sometimes you gotta torture the people"... in a prison he forgets somewhere....geeeze, every one has the right to vote. Should they?

Two wrongs do not a right make.
Torture does not work.
It makes people say things that aren't true to avoid further torture.
It is inhumane and morally discusting.

Strength through Peace!

Maybe if you knew the name of the prison - it is actually Guantanamo Bay and Abdu Gharaib then maybe you would know that innocent people - not just terrorists are being tortured - check out a bit more about our government - See the movie IRAQ FOR SALE - get a bit more information before you approve of torture. There is a reason that we have a CONSTITUTIONAL right to a speedy trial = there is a reason our found fathers insisted that you must be charged for a crime if you are to be held in a prison.

Wow, we're in trouble if someone believes this garbage enough to actually take time out of their day to make a video and submit it on, of all places such an intelligent website, thankfully the vast majority of people here can think for themselves. I just cringe to think of what those poll numbers might look like on Fox News.

P.S. props to Al Gore for being such a cool guy, the world would be a MUCH different place...

Can we please force people to do research before they make videos? It is Guantanamo Bay. They are not terrorists and some are not even Muslim. Its also Abu Ghraib and in Poland and Romania where they hold "...high-value detainees (HVDs) in secret detention facilities..."(Dick Marty).

Boy, there's nothing like rehearsal to make yourself look less like an idiot. "you just have to"? Jeez. Stop hanging with GW and learn some appropriate phrases, ya duoche.

One day you will be the one in the torture chair and then you will understand the problem: who decides who to torture, and what they "know" that they are not saying. The military/police/FBI/CIA may decide logane knows something he is not talking about.... and you will see why we have a constitution that puts individual rights above government intimidation and torture.

typical of the brainwashed? can't see past the propaganda machine, young perhaps, innocently simply cannot believe that our "leaders" could do such things...but we all gotta learn, and we need to educate to the truth, wake up...

wake up dude! watch these films then you'll probably understand that you're listening to the perpetrators!

check out most of them on tvnewslies.org
"loose change"
"why we fight"
"war made easy"
"beyond treason"
"9/11 - what really happened"
"the truth and lies of 9/11" by mike ruppert
see required reading by bush supporters there too...

then read
newamericancentury.org, select documents, select
"rebuilding america's defenses.pdf"
(don't forget to look who they are at "about us" on that "pnac" site) and see

p 8 says u.s. already is THE overwhelming dominant force...

p. 51 their plan of global military dominance expansion "transformation...will be a long one, absent a catastrophic and catalyzing event like a new pearl harbor"... (which, since you're young you may not know, we were attacked at pearl harbor, hawaii by the japanese when we retaliated w/nuclear weapons (the most extreme ever) back in the 1940s).

also page 51, they need to control the internet...and notice in "war made easy" where dick cheney considers the press a "problem that needed to be managed."

do you see the extremists factors emerging?

in other words, dude, there's overwhelming evidence our nation is being, has been, hijacked by extremely powerful criminal minds in the white house who have stripped us of our constitutional rights, run off with billions-trillions out of the treasury for themselves and their buddies (no-bid contracts, kick-backs (no secret cheney still collects checks from haliburton), feeding massive contributions to other political campaigns (owning everyone), buying up media, gutting our environment which is the natural resource base we all need to live by while making their corporate irresponsible buddies extremely rich and complicit, bla bla bla, etc, etc, etc...in short, meaning facism, NOT democracy...

soon, unless we can educate several million blinders like you, you'll see you won't be able to protest and if you did, may be tortured yourself...then you might see that most of the supposedly tortured, detained are innocents without rights...

and if you think about it, you might see that most of the "terrorists" who are willing to be suicide bombers, etc. are VERY willing to tell everything about why they want to kill the "satan" which is the u.s. leaders bush and co., not us, usually...hopefully we'll help them see that we know what's going on...and are PROTESTING the genocide...

by the way, there is a statement by osama bin laden on that tvnewslies site which states he had nothing to do with 9/11...bush and bin laden families have been biz partners for years...

so, like many things to take our attention off these really important facts, we're being misled by the genocidal-maniacal war criminals for the sake of their war machine...it's business....the business of multi-billion-dollar-murder.

why? back in the 90s in the clinton years the world was mostly at peace and most military bases were closing...their "business" not needed any longer, was failing...many a military general, i'm told, wrote their memoirs about how the american military have "created wars" for the business of war...(i've read excerpts)...

so, if inclined, go back to reading that pnac document and with this knowledge, you may be able to see that it is, in fact, a business plan, an expansion plan, that uses the blood, literally, and blood, sweat and tears, taxmoney of americans' daily toil to survive for their very own bank accounts...

and they test their weapons on our own troops without their knowledge...

extremists in power, if you will, the opinion of i guess 50++ million americans...

it just scratches the surface, but hope this helps!

I'm sure there are plenty of people somewhere who would agree with this guy. After all, someone had to re-elect Bush. I mean, if you don't think too deep (at all) you might see his point. They want to kill us, screw them, do what it takes. Unfortunately that is TV land, where consequences are kept in check by overly-groomed leading men. The reality is that condoning torture goes against who we are as a nation, cutting ourselves off at the knees. Ask yourself, why do we have to be worried about "extreme Muslims", Iran, or any other world figure? Because we're political and militaristic JERKS! Torture only supports that theory, and fuels the fire. Screw with people long enough, and you'll end up with another Hitler + WW on your hands, just like Bush promised.

Well, that's not really plausible is it? It's important that we deal in reality. I think you would agree Cosmo. The way we behave in the world has a lot to do with how we are percieved and how we are treated. A respectable, humane, and loving nation doesn't have to worry about rogue attacks against it. Why do think we have so many enemies as it is? The sad reality is that America is not what she once was, and the world knows it. Fixing our image and foreign policy is much more valuable than intel gathered through torture could ever, ever.be.-------------- *Pay attention to, and treat, the real problem, not the symptoms.*

thanks cosmo for explaining you were talking to the videographer, yes, we are fed an enormous amount of crap to be afraid...

the brain control managers paint a picture, a FEAR picture, for us to see, to buy into, to invest in, (physically, intellectually and emotionally) that's not exactly true...like how they got us into the iraq war...

they coulda taken saddam hussain, who they were in biz with for years selling weapons to, out with a hit squad...but no, why full scale war?...money, power, and maybe someone's pissed because of biz deals gone sour, or they didn't get him before...they just needed an excuse for their "party".

BUT LOOK at the disaster for those people AND US!!!...hundreds of thousands killed...and they continue to cover up the numbers of the dead...watch the films mentioned above...

more of our troops have died than the vietnam war and they are covering up those numbers...they don't include anybody in transport who is still breathing, so unless they pick you up and you're dead at the time they don't count you those in the numbers...if you died later, you didn't die in those numbers!...notice in the ticker tape of cnn they give the numbers and then say cnn, the most trusted name in news...total bullcrap!

also, it's not likely the iranians would attack us, just like iraq never had wmd...WE have the weapons of mass destruction and are using them then lie about it...watch the films mentioned above...

"beyond treason" will make your blood boil and we are all at risk! they planned and executed their plan to use radioactive waste weapons- aka depleted uranium weapons and then lied to our guys and told them they didn't need the protective suits, gear...it's absolutely astounding any of this could occur.

my dad is a wwii hero, and my brother was killed in the war machines' "brand new foolproof helicopter"...they TEST, USE and APPLY their business assets through american blood...all the while lying about it...and that's why it is WRONG...it's a fallacy.

torture is wrong, no matter what, it is offensive aggressive action to antagonize and elicit response, no matter what, like angelinah says, it gets us no-where...but it gets the bully-war machine exactly what they want: the fight, the $, the power, the control...

they were gaining, but then their own began abandoning ship, and everyone is screaming, asking tougher questions and they are on the defense now and about to go down!

I will respond, although I doubt this young man will ever read it because it seems that he has never read anything in his life. He gets his information from the right-wing spinners--the give away? When he said "they hate us (Americans)" and "They want to come over here and blow us up". Yes, the fear-mongers have done a job on him.

Do you ever wonder why "they" hate us? Could it be because we talk about how great we are, and yet, we elect leaders who ignore international law for their own gain? Maybe because of our arrogance in believing that "our" way is the only way. Do you think it may be because innocent people are being slaughtered all over the world and our government only seems to care about the countries that have something to give us in return?

Torture is ineffective. Torture is unAmerican.

What if YOU are suspected of terrorism?

"not nothing cruel"? What do you think torture is? The tactics used by our torturers are some of the most depraved ever devised. I believe that when the history books are written, 50 years from now, the Bush administration will be regarded as war criminals because of the torture practiced today. The difference between what our country is perpetrating and the Spanish Inquisition is that not all of the people we have tortured are dead - yet.

Some countries take their signatures on international treaties seriously. Our own Constitution states we must abide by the treaties we enter into. So, please explain to me how taking an oath to protect the Constitution also includes violating the Geneva Conventions and the use of torture? We will either be a nation of laws that we abide by, or we'll become a banana republic where one set of laws doesn't apply to all, equally. (And we are well on our way to the latter.)

The president would have us believe that "enhanced interrogation" (read: torture) is one of the tools necessary to "protect America from its enemies." The harsh reality is that some of America's enemies are fighting us from within with illegal wiretapping, "enhanced" interrogation (read: torture), off shore detention centers, indefinite detention without charge, doing away with habeas corpus, and so on. It is during times like this that we must stick to our ideals even more. By sacrificing personal liberty, the president has done the opposite of what he has intended, he has not protected America, he is destroying it and what it stands for: Liberty and Freedom. I'll quote Patrick Henry who said, "Give me Libery, or Give me Death."

High ranking US military experts have spoken clearly against torture, indicating that it was ineffective because someone being tortured will say whatever you want them to say to get it to stop. We comdemn other countries for human rights violations, yet we do it ourselves. By this behavior, and violating international treaties which we ratified, it makes our our own soldiers or citizens very vulnerable if they are taken hostage.

It's pretty well-known that people will say anything under torture.

My real argument against torture is simple. When you torture someone, you stoop to their level. Not only do you demonize the person you're torturing, you demonize yourself. You can think of it as a collective standard for humanity, and by lowering that standard, you hurt yourself as well.

A couple years ago, I visited Ellis Island and Liberty Island. While touring the Statue of Liberty I imagined what my mother and grandparents must have thought when they passed the Statue. I am sure they believed they were entering a country that stood for all the best values in life. I am sure they felt the pride I felt watching the idealism portrayed in John Wayne movies and in believing those values were what made the U.S. great. Now we have an administration in Washington that steps on and tramples those ideals of honesty and fair play by using the most depraved tactics in an unjust and illegal war and then lying about it. We might as well take down the Statue of Liberty. The patriot act, FISA laws and the bully actions of this administration have so tarnished and nullified the ideals symbolized in the Statue of Liberty that we can no longer call ourselves the land of the free and the home of the brave. So what do I think of torture? It is the delight of the most depraved of the human race.

"We just have to!" This country has joined the ranks of rogue nations that delight in torture and the whole world knows it. There was a time when this notion would have been unconscionalbe. No longer. United States citizens can justify torture, spying upon Americans and the forfeiture of constitutional rights to maintain security. The enemy we should fear the most is the government of the United States. It has used the threat of terror attacks to terroristicall attack our freedoms. Lemmings such as this young man give little hope of anything positive ahead. Kafka's 'The Trial' is beginning to take on the look of the good old days.

The torturing method has been more than played out. just like our history its been so repetitive for past centuries it needs to change. We are more advanced in a psychological way to easily get answers from them . If you call your self American than consider your self more of a hypocrite!! Torture is totally against our 8th amendment which is. . (cause you obviously don't know what the 8th amendment is . . ) against any type of cruel and unusual punishment!!!

What gives you the right to dehumanise and torture anyone? Extreme Christians are just as dangerous as extreme Muslims.

first of all, i believe torture is inhumane unnessesary and gives no resluts. OK, well by torturing someone you are only making them tell you what you want to hear they are under conditions unimaginable to a normal american who lives a normal with no threats. I think now terrorists and arabs in general(which by the way Iraquis are not arabs they are persians , and where civilization started) have been steriotyped as evil people who blow themselves up. There was only one attack on america and they are torturing completely innocent american people with arab heritage as young as 15 years of age. It is an outrage!

Hahaha. Okay, well I was going to give this ignorant kid a piece of my mind, but it seems as if several members have already ripped him a new one. Nice to see.

Yeah, I like how reliable the information we get from torture is, :rolleyes:. The fact that you can't think of the places we are doing the torture is part of the problem as it is being conducted in secret prisons.

you dumb

For crying out loud--QUESTION AUTHORITY!!

Paraphrase: The bad guys are out to get Americans so it's okay to torture. OMG! How gullible are you?

Did you sleep during your history classes?

Alot of people don't know this but an alarming number of people by the military's own admission that were held at Abu Ghraib were innocent and had no intellegence value and were tortured anyway. America is becoming known as a great force for evil in the world.

I think this guy may be the victim of the use of Non-Sleep.

and how exactly do you know who is a terrorist and who wants to hurt the us?

if people tortured americans, they'd be outraged.

no one has any right to torture anyone.

Torturing in the name of saving innocent lives, to me, is a flaw.

How impotent you are to believe in such a lame way of getting info.

I am going to make an educated guess here.....I would imagine that those of you completely against this young man's view have NEVER been confronted by a fanatical enemy bent on killing everyone. I imagine most, if not all, of you have not even been in the military or any type of government security position. Having made those observations: Do you think the acts of terrorists on 9/11/2001 were "kind"? Would you enjoy seeing something like that again? If you think aggressive interrogation tactics are wrong then I have a question for you. If you have children, have you EVER questioned them about something to a point that they have cried? If you can answer "yes" to this question then YOU are just as guilty of "aggressive interrogation", what you see as torture. A child crying as a result of repeated, or elevated voice level, questioning is due to psychological stress. That is EXACTLY what things like "water boarding" are meant to do. These "torture" tactics are intended to create enough psychological stress to get the information sought. How many of you, against these "torture" tactics, have pointed the finger and have looked for somebody in OUR country to blame for the events of 9/11/2001? If aggressive interrogation tactics are used on an enemy to get information that can stop a much greater loss of life, even if that loss of life is going to be in another country, then I agree that certain tactics should be used. You are correct though, this kid just reads things and is like a blind sheep. Pointing the finger at Muslims is not the right thing to do either. A terrorist can come from ANY walk of life. For those of you who think that "they will just agree with what you say to get it to stop" you don't know how the process works. I will say that I DO DISAGREE with any tactics that could result in the death of the person being interrogated. Think about how you've questioned your children, it's all about psychology. And this kid is wrong about the leader of Iran. As far as why Bin Laden and other people think we are evil, part of it has to do with our Middle East policies and part of it is because of the sick things we allow to take place in our country. Men wanting to marry men, and the same with women, prostitution, spouses having affairs, etc. are some of the reasons they hate our country.

bully 2 You have taken Patrick Henry's comment out of context. What he actually meant was that he wanted the freedom to be able to choose who should be in charge over the country and to not just be ruled by a king on the other side of the ocean. Keep in mind, they had no say, at all, in what they were and were not allowed to do over here they couldn't even set their own prices, EVERYTHING was decided by England. If you're going to use a quote, at least make an attempt to keep it in context.

MLM:

I was BOTH in the military AND in a government security position DURING 9/11 and DURING the first year of the Iraq war. Looks like your "educated guess" was actually a pretty ignorant one. Having made this observation: are you [expletive deleted] crazy?

Are you seriously comparing the actions of a parent making their child cry and someone being forced against their will to endure a "simulated drowning?" If so, please NEVER, EVER, EVER come near my children! I will of course teach my son and my daughter to defend themselves, but I'd rather them not have to endure the company of the criminally insane.

Here's something that we might want to try as a nation if we want to survive outside of the history books, stop trying to be a hegemony. What is with our incessant need for dominance? Every penny that has been spent in Iraq, and there are over forty-five trillion of them, could go to things right here at home. How many bridged have been deemed in need of repair after the Minnesota collapse? How badly does the Social Security system need repair? How much faster could medicine find cures for critical diseases?

As for relations with foreign nations, we have the one thing that can even hope to bring respect back --- we have a strong and vital market system which has the ability to provide monetary opportunity for us and for our neighbors. If we truly believe in this capitalist country of ours, why don't we focus more on creating opportunities for trade and less on profiting from the deaths of our neighbors in this World.

Just think where NASA might be with $450,000,000,000! Our military certainly isn't any better for the money spent on war. If anything, our armed services are stretched thin and tired of the dogmatic crap they are fed as the reasoning for their sacrifices. Stop spending money on killing, start spending money on building. Period.

Most nations train their soldiers in methods for handling how to be tortured, and how to torture, like it or not torture is a reality of warfare and something we as human beings have historically excelled at.

So torture is okay to protect one's own? Should the Japanese have tortured Americans to prevent the deaths of tens of thousands of Japanese civilians from atomic weapons? Should the British have tortured George Washington and the other "founding fathers"/freedom fighters if they had caught them?