Schools are being led astray

I'm a student in the United States school system, and I'm honestly glad that we don't have God in our schools any more. There might be some sort of "moral guidance" we would get from having God in our schools again, but it would be completely negated by people of different religions who would rave and riot and otherwise freak out if had God represented in our schools again.

There is surely plenty wrong with our schools, but to think that an empty, coerced ritual of public prayer would fix any of that is ludicrously wishful thinking. As for God being "taken out" of our schools, I thought theists thought he was omnipresent. What, he's only going to help people if the government sets up a policy of public prayer in schools? Gimme a break.

I did think that your juxtaposition of prayer and discipline was revealing: it really is, finally, about control, obedience, and conformity. The problem is not with schools, per se, but with the larger society, of which schools are a microcosm. Figure out what's wrong with society, and you'll figure out what's wrong with schools. My current favorite theories are 1) consumerism as a substitute for involvement, 2) lack of neighborliness and engagement with each other, and 3) lack of connection to nature and food. When God intervenes for good in Haiti and Darfur I'll think about counting him as relevant.

I thought I saw a white board and school posters behind you. Please tell me you are not a teacher. No teacher that approves of physical discipline to his/her students should be allowed to teach.

Stunned I am. I would bet a few sheckles that stephanielh considers herself a patriotic American, believes the "founders" of our country were Christians, and that Saddam blew-up the twin towers. Consequently, filled to the brim with poor information, stephanielh goes forth into the blogosphere and makes a misinformed fool of herself--and in doing so, stands as living proof of why "God" has no place in American schools--the writers/signers of our constitution understood that critical thinking skills depend, in part, on separation of church and state. And, the "founders" of the American Union were not "Christians;" most were diests, most of whom were what we might refer to today as Transendentalists--believed in a God of some sort, an Intellegence present in the universe and/or creator of the universe which disclosed "Itself" (not necessarily gendered) in the workings of Nature; at least one founder was a Spiritualist--believed in speaking to the dead; and one founder was an atheist but found the position was politically unfavorable, adopting the word God as replacement for the word Nature in his later writing. (Atheist is a word that has sadly gained a pejorative edge, equaling devil worship, in our tight one-or-the-other American thinking.)

If a person wants religion in school, s/he might consider moving to a country where the state and religion are combined ideologically. Otherwise, to simplify this on-going debate, those who believe the church should be part of education, should go to private, non-state-funded schools--I for one, as a tax payer do not want to pay for religious education (except in intro to religion courses where all forms of religion are introduced as equally appealing myths and creation stories). Myths is also a problematic word--for many of the same reasons as "atheist." Sigh....
Be well and happy,
thomhera

I will be 77 years old in two months. I've been very fortunate to have been raised in an era where "God" stayed home and in churches --- *not* in school. Why should children be forced to waste time on theological subjects (in their public school) when life for them in this era is becoming more and more complicated?

Learning the "3 R's" has produced a hydra-headed technological explosion even now in 2007, what will it be like a decade or so from now? American students, I am ashamed to admit, are the dumbest in the world (according to the 24/7 talking heads on news channels) --- so why on earth should something as useless as religion be included in the actual *learning* process?

Let's keep "God" and all the rest of the deities out of our schools. Why does America only acknowledge their version of "God" -- but none of the other variety of supernatural deities we have today with a lot of races and different creeds in our public schools!

So to whose "God" should the other children be wasting their time with in school instead of learning how to read, study basic mathematics they will need to build on in college -- or even, perhaps, learn how to construct a coherent sentence with words spelled correctly?

Parents with children in public schools should not expect our teachers and educators to lead their classes in *any* kind of mumbo-jumbo religious fantasy, but to do the job they have always done....teach the kids the things that will affect their lives for the future.

No religion in school (no prayers, no references to "intelligent design" and all the rest of Fantasyland) will ever prepare a child for adulthood who didn't learn how to read, write and do their 'rithmetic.

That made absolutely no sense!!! Who is the "they" she keeps mentioning? They took God out of schools?

I am dumber having watched this!!!

Write on agelessannie!!
The reason our children (I am speaking as a writing teacher) are being dumbed down is directly related to the current American King's "All Children Left Behind" (ACLB).

ACLB pushes testing testing testing--do not provide spaces and times and silences for thinking through tough problems--memorize memorize memorize--our children, under no circumstances, are allowed the benefit of struggling through the cognitive processes necessary for understanding the foundations of all subjects. Teaching and learning toward tests does not form the necessary mental hardware, broad categorical knowledge, the physical pathways, neurons, and dendrites in the brain, that provide the possibility for thinking critically. Our teachers are beleaguered by enormous amounts of paperwork that has absolutely nothing to do with educating our children, but rather filling out forms so legislators and other demagogues can say they are contributing to the "good" of our children's education. Our state funded educational system is broken--a good start toward fixing the problems would be to simply drop the ACLB program and let teachers teach!

Religion should be taught from the pulpit, not from school books. Disipline belongs in the home not in school. Besides, whos religious prayers are we supposed to have in school, yours or mine or someone elses? I'm sure you wouldn't want my beliefs forced down your throat any more than I would want yours. Do you realy think GOD cares where we are when we pray to him? I don't.

Religion is a personal thing. Usually but not always it is a family thing. Many families have different members practice different religions, or go to different churches. Each with its own form of prayer and practice. Each with its own view on what prayer is, how to do it, whats acceptable and whats not, from Quakers, to Roman Cathalics, to Southern Pentacostle Baptists, Zen Budhists, Tibetan Budhists, Bahi, Black Muslems, Shite Muslems, Christian Scientists, Santaria, Hindu, the list goes on. All of these are reprented and practiced by citizens of the United States. Our founding fathers were I think wise in trying to keep religion out of politics and politics out of religion. Both suffer from the influence of the other. Or shall we say Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars, and unto God what is Gos's. Even Jesus advocated seperation of church and state.

I am a 9th grade student in a Public school and I cannot imagine what it would be like to have prayer in a public school. It is one thing if it is a private school that the parents and students choose to attend but it is absolutly insane to have any religion in school. School is a place to learn, not to worship God! Also, disipline is still in school!!! I don't know what Stephanie means, perhaps she means their is no physical discipline. Thank goodness their isn't!!!!! I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree with Stephanie!

Dlawand, I could be wrong but I thought the person in the video clip here was referring to "they took God out of schools" as either the Supreme Court's decision or --- hmmm, heck I don't know who else could have done it? It sure wasn't Commander Bunnypants or Darth Cheney!
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Thomhera, I posted an excerpt on my blogpage from a speech made by Dr. William H. Cosby, PhD, who is pretty well known for his outspoken manner of speaking to black kids (and their parents). It was funny of course but made so much sense! I would like to e-mail it to you but where's the e-mail link for those who may like to be contacted?? Sorry........I'm off-thread & topic, but please don't shoot me, OK? I have a few good years left. Hah.

OPEN YOUR MIND...I am from San Diego and for decades, courts have been arguing over whether we should keep GIANT crosses atop two of the more notable and visible mountains within our county. Oh, but it is only a Korean War Memorial cry those in favor of the cross. Do you think all that perished in this war were of a faith relating to that cross? I seriously doubt it. So, if you madam, were to lose your life and someone else chose to "memorialize" your grave with say a Star of David (sorry, I'm assuming you are Christian or Catholic...because everyone is, right?) would that be okay with you. I don't think it would. What you desire, to bring back religion into schools is the same as me wishing to force an ideology you do not subscribe to in your face. OPEN YOUR MIND...

She says we have an administration that does not know right from wrong, so we need more "God" in Schools .... yet we have President who claims to be a Born Again Christian, who puts God into everything, who got into a disastrous war because "God told him to", and who would not be in power without the support from the Christian right.

I agree the administration does know right from wrong. Perhaps LESS God in the White House would help fix that.

Perhaps what we need in Schools is better education on critical thinking?

I strongly disagree with stephanielh's viewpoint, although I applaud her for speaking her mind. I don't think anyone needs to belittle her personally in order to disagree with her perspective.

I don't understand why some Christians believe that morality only comes from religion, and typically believe that their faith is the only truth. Morality and structure and discipline exist in our laws and regulations. We are a civil society. Public school is for educating our kids with facts and science and life skills. Religion belongs in church or temple or mosque or at home. Don't force your religious beliefs on others, and remember that your way is not the only way.

When you say, that "they" took prayer out of schools, you mean the founding fathers and authors of the constitution, right?

Too bad we can not commit assault against children anymore. shucks.

A parent who doesn't want them to = First Amendment of the Constitution

When you say that they have no moral grounds to stand on... I can't even respond to that because it makes such little sense.

God was removed from schools in 1791, when the Bill of Rights was passed. How have we done since then?

Which administration doesn't know right from wrong? The Bush administration? The federal government? The state government? The city government? the school administration?

I am truly surprised that this collapse in school systems is only coming in the next decade. Its been 216 years and we finally have run out of options.

Please, if you want religion to be instituted in schools, send your children to private school. Those poor brainwashed children.

If the school systems collapse in 10 years, which I seriously doubt, it will not be because "God has been taken out of the schools". If you are a true believer, than God is always in your heart, always with you. If you are not a believer, why should you be forced to participate in prayer? Students who want to pray can do so, but it doesn't need to be done out loud. Maybe the solution would be to offer a room where students can gather before the school bell goes off, to pray,discuss, whatever.

Please remember that our country was founded on the separation of church and state.

And anyway, I attended religious schools from Kindergarten throughout high school. I believe that the public school kids were better educated in science and math, among other things.

This woman sounds ill informed...or perhaps lives in a bubble. Maybe it has to do with what she has been exposed to?

WOW! What powerful schools. . . almighty, omnipotent and omnipresent God is banned from the schools because they don't permit public prayer? Private prayer is not and cannot be banned from anywhere. It is the coercive nature of public, institutionalized prayer and religion that is forbidden in schools and other government entities. I lived in Germany where Jesus hung on the cross in my daughter's elementary school classroom and I had to pay church tax, though I am not personally a member of any church. Religious instruction was also a part of daily school instruction. Is there more religion in Germany? Far from it! In fact, far fewer people consider themselves religious or attend services in Germany, where many churches are for sale, than in the US where freedom of AND from religion and religious coercion is the law of the land. Be careful what you wish for.

Historically, most catastrophic wars in human history have been motivated by religious conflict, and wars have been waged and fought in the name of Chrisitanity. Maybe stephanielh has a hidden agenda in her reasoning for prayer in school - After all, if all students in the United States are forced to engage in prayer, or a moment of silence, eventually, they may all become brainwashed into becoming good, God-fearing Christians. The end result would be a whole new generation of warriors for Christ who will blindly follow the likes of the current administration and the days of "Rosie Riveter" would return and women could bo back to their place in the home where they belong. Sounds like a plausible line of reasoning to me.

As a multi-ethnic gay male who was born and raised in Hawaii with a healthy respect for multiple belief systems, I think we have more to worry about what the likes of stephanielh have in mind for this country than we have to fear from foreign extremists.

Whose "homeland" is being protected? Certainly not the homeland of the aboriginal peoples of what is now the continental United States, Hawaii, Puerto Rico and all other U.S. territories around the world - many of whom had flourishing cultures and spritual beliefs that predate the time of Christ.

Maybe the "sons and daughters" of thieves and conquerers feel the need to assuage their inherited guilt by associattion by hiding behind a self-manufactured smoke screen of judgment, name calling, and intolerance.

If tolerance and acceptance mean I am evil, satanic, immoral, and unpatriotic, I am guilty as charged.

Since there are so many religions in the world, whose religion do you think should be guiding any school? Would you want a religion that is not your own forced on you? I think not.

Frankly, there are not enough hours in the current school day for children to learn all that is required. I do not want a minute of their time wasted on something I am very capable of teaching them at home.

Not for a moment forgetting that my kids have always known that they can pray anytime they wish to, they have never needed a special time set aside to talk to God.

Moral standards are what children learn in the home--not in the school.

One of the best reasons to live in America is freedom of religion. You can attend a church every day if you choose, your churches are tax free, and no one has the right to stop you from praying at your church--whatever religion you might be involved in. The other wonderful thing is that people who do not wish to go to church are free to do so as well without having religion pushed on them.

Public places--such as schools--are not the places for god, churchs are. I will fight hard to keep it that way.

Okay--lets start the day with a reading from the Qur'an, then maybe a little story about Jesus. After that we'll discuss Buddha and have a classroom visit from the Rabbi down the street. After lunch, we can take a field trip to the Church of Scientology for...what's that?

Oh you just meant "your" God.

Never mind.

This seems to be the friend of lelie-something who has made comments regarding gay rights and climate change. Yes, what you do see in the background is a white board and school-type posters, and knowing that scares me. I am an elementary teacher and I can't even imagine having to pray on top of trying to teach kids (to the test no less! Thanks to No Child Left Behind) If this woman is a teacher I am guessing she's not teaching at a public school, or at least I hope that is the case!

I forgot to add this! I saw this poster on a teachers desk that said, "As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school!" Maybe not the kind of prayer you want but I cannot imagine telling my Jewish or Muslim students that they must pray, because we all know the prayer that would be said would be to the Christian God, the right God according to them, not their wrong God. Oh, people like this woman scare me! If you really want a good scare, watch the documentary, JESUS CAMP. It's a great horror flick but unfortunately it is real!

The founders of our nation were against state-sponsored religion, but many of them were devoutly religious. This tension exists in our founding documents as it did within the population of the original colonies. Liberals need to understand and tolerate people who behave in an openly religious manner. It's part of living in a pluaralistic society. The notion that we should have a "prayer room" is absurd and insulting. Why don't we also have a "hip hop room" for people to listen to gangster rap or a "Spanish room" so we don't have to listen to people speak Spanish? The very notion is offensive!

On the other hand I one hundred percent reject the notion of schools teaching Christianity as faith and leading prayer for students. Stephanielh is repeating talking points straight from the desk of James Dobson and Chuck Colson. These men seek power through controlling a population with a narrow and carefully-crafted form of Christianity. I'd rather my kids learn whatever religion the Aztecs believed than this garbage.

We're being Freeped. Look at the clips from Lesliedawn, Darino and Stephanielh on all the topics the GOP drives home to their religious right footsoldiers: gay rights, abortion, and now global warming. They are all in the same white room with flourescent lighting, whiteboards and a strip to hang papers from on the wall. They have the same accent. The audio has the same live quality suggesting tile flooring. It looks like a classroom inside a mega-church somewhere. Well at least the three of them are clearly the least popular people posting on this site. It keeps them away from electioneering where they can cause real damage.

You assume that only people who share your Christian viewpoint can be moral. I am a tree hugging atheist and most people that know me consider me one of the most moral people they know. If the schools collapse it will only be because the Christian conservatives that swoop into town to fight every school referendum.

Well, this was settled with the Bill of Rights. So, I guess what we REALLY need in the school is not "prayer" to Stephanie's deity, but a civics lesson. The 1st Amendment to The Constitution says, in part: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...." This is commonly referred to the separation of church and state.


That said, I imagine that Stephanie has a particular deity to whom she would like to pray instituted in schools. Therein lies the problem. What if other people want to pray to someone else? Or no one at all? So, whose prayers would she offer? Let's list a few possibilities: Christian prayers? Hebrew? Islamic? Hindu? Buddhist? Zoroastrian? Shinto? Paganism? Wiccan? Confucianism? Taoism? Scientology? Jehovah? Rastafarianism? Unitarian-Universalists?


The point is that competing belief systems may arise. All religions are still free to practice as they see fit in accordance with their customs and beliefs, without interference by the state, but they cannot impose those beliefs upon society nor in the schools. This is the basis of freedom of religion in the United States and the "establishment clause" in The Constitution which essentially separates church and state.

I suspect that if the reverse were true, and the Congress, or other religions like some of the ones I listed tried to take over Stephanie's church, town, the laws of the land, the educational system, she might have a different opinion, because they are not of "christian" origin. It's a very slippery slope, and exactly why our founding fathers were trying to protect us. Let's listen to them, shall we?

Equal protection for all.

People don't believe the same as you? WHAT? Thats ridiculous!

Your outdated, fairy tale god does not have an exclusive on morality, and you have no right to make me pay taxes so you can turn schools into churches.

Teaching and learning and developing an ability to engage in critical thinking is what belongs in school, not religion and prayer. Of course children need to learn discipline and respect if a school is to function well but that has nothing to do with prayer or God or religion as far as I am concerned.

not everyone believes in god.

Magzilla and Kathryn Sanders,

I like your thought process. At the end of our individual lives', if we can all say I tried to love, accept and understand others I have encountered in my life, then I could have lived a worse live. School should teach us how to learn, not what to believe. We are all sentient beings and need to be able to explore and challenge our beliefs and those of others. Teach me how to learn and how to be more self-critical and less critical of others and I will be as wise as I am able to be.

SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. As long as we're talking about publicly funded schools, niether "God" nor prayer has any place in education. Should theology be introduced, it should be in the form of an educational World Religions course, Maybe then more of our students will realize there is more than just the "God" of the 3 western monotheisms (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) that they are accustomed to.

Amen (I just couldn't resist).

I agree.

People seem to forget that kids need rules and a moral compass. -Otherwise they make very bad adults!

If you believe your children should pray in school in accordance with your particular religious belief, then send your children to a private school - that is what my parents did with me and my sister. But as far as prayer in public schools, there are so many different religions and so many different sub-categories within each major religion that it is impossible to honor everyone's beliefs.

America is not a theocracy. If you want state sponsored religion, move to Iran.

I too believe that our public school system is in decline, but it is not due to not having prayer in schools - prayer in public schools has been banned for decades. The gathering crisis in our public school system is more likely due to a lack of funding and a curriculum which emphasizes passing standardized tests above all else. Children are becoming more obese and less healthy, not because they aren't kneeling in prayer, but because physical education has been cut or eliminated all together. Maybe if the kids got outside and worked off some of that pent up energy, they wouldn't be so disruptive in class. Civics has been cut from most schools and American History is disappearing as well. The American public is increasingly ignorant of how our government is supposed to work. Separation of Powers and Checks & Balances are foreign concepts to most people these days. Perhaps if more Americans read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, there wouldn't be so much confusion over core American values, such as the separation of church and state.