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Pope blames atheists for world's sufferings

  1. sonrisa
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A newly released papal letter charges that atheists are responsible for the cruelty and horrendous injustices ocurring in the world.

Not really surprising. Although, I have to wonder- does the letter also explore the role of organized religion in many of the world's most horrific wars throughout history? Somehow I doubt it...
sonrisa

56 responses // Pope blames atheists for world's sufferings

  • Here is a small list of the wars fought in the name of religion.
    Swiyyah
  • hey, I don't do any harm to society!!! LOL :P
    jade_azul16
  • He is so wrong and biased for saying these things, I can't believe he's a well-respected person. Is there any religion that ACCEPTS other people's beliefs?
    slippyt
  • (One hand) Pot. (Other hand) Kettle. (Third Hand) Black?

    Hello?
    Slappyfrog
  • All he's saying is that God offers hope, Atheists do not. Why would you even consider this "interpretation" truly accurate? Because your friend's at ABC supplied it?

    Read his encyclical and be your own judge. Isn't that the truth of keeping "Current"?
    mexisurfer
  • The Vatican has a lot to answer for, shall we start with the crusades, when they acquired a good portion of their wealth, which I note they don't seem to share with the poor, despite their vows of poverty. The hypocrisy is mind numbing
    SusanB
  • The only hope I have is that one day this world is not terrorized by religion. :)
    jade_azul16
  • The christian, I mean truly christian faith( that includes catholicism) is an accepting society. True christians do not judge others because the one judging is a sinner too. Popes have prayed in masques and synagogs before along side the local residents. It is ignorant boobs who use religion to gain power and start wars not christians, not jews and not true muslims. This man is simply saying that in a Godless world no true happiness can be achieved.
    RoyalDynamo
  • It seems to me that you who are talking smack about the christian faith are stereotyping it to extremely infamous characters in our past. Every organization as big as the vatican is going to have some hypocrisy. It all depends on whether one believes the faith that it stems from.
    RoyalDynamo
  • I don't fully agree with his statement; It's not atheists that are responsible for cruelty and injustice. Biblically, it is human nature as a whole that is responsible.

    Besides sonrisa, not everything done in the name of the Christ is "Christian". Through out history, people use Christ's name to justify their cause; From the Crusades - to that church that protests at soldier's funeral. That doesn't mean that Christians or Jesus him self would agree with it...
    Remarkableryan
  • but Susan, surely your rush to judgement is even more mind numbing, no?

    for starters, its not clear that we should measure the value of a belief system by doing some kind of moral calculus that weights the amount of good it has done versus the amount of bad it has done. Clearly, you could never gather the relevant data. And this is true for theism, as well as theism.

    But for some reason people like to count dead bodies as a means of determining which philosophical system is best? To me, its a non starter. Stalin, Polpot, Hitler, X, Y, Z have committed acts in the name of the state or the people and followed there atheistic ethic to its logical end. Now I'm supposed to count the bodies in this pile against the pile formed by 'religion.'

    One day religion has more bodies, and the next decade atheism, and we keep counting and changing our perspectives?

    Atheism is a bankrupt philosophical system that denies human nature, transcultural and transcendent ethics and the existence of your soul. Whether or not it resulted in hundreds of millions of deaths is only ADDITIONAL reason to reject it.



    BooksBrown
  • Hitler thought that Jews are to be blame for all sufferings in the world. Pope says atheists are to be blame.
    Hitler and Pope should become lovers. Hitler is dead. Now it is time for Pope. And all the stupid religions out there. I cant believe people still follow religious bullsheet.

    Voytek
  • how blue do you think his balls are?
    phukna
  • BooksBrown, I grew up in Catholic Ireland, had to go to mass every Sunday, say prayers at assembly every morning in school, made my communion, and confirmation, was told how to vote on the abortion referendum by a priest that came to my school and showed the girls pictures of aborted fetuses.... don't get me started about all the problems I have with the catholic church, I have too much work to do today
    SusanB
  • But Susan, what do you say to the person who's had a similar experience and is happy about it? That you are unahppy doesnt mean the value system is false. It just means you are unhappy.

    The fact that you were able to focus your mind on God, we're able to participate in a communal act of worship and instructed on the sanctity of life is jsut the type of thing I'd expect from a religion that valued clarity, purpose, family, purity, holiness and LIFE.

    I have work to do too, but this is so much fun! Get's my rusted gears turning =)


    BooksBrown
  • That is a problem in the modern world the forced belief in Christ. One should be simply offered Christ. One has to make the decision for one's self to be happy.
    RoyalDynamo
  • and for those who like counting, peep Dnesh Dsouza on this:

    These figures are tragic, and of course population levels were much lower at the time. But even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls produced by the atheist despotisms of the 20th century. In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people.

    Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power. Can the wars between England and France be called religious wars because the English were Protestants and the French were Catholics? Hardly.


    Disclaimer: I'm seldom down with Dnesh, but here has a point.

    BooksBrown
  • That was stated towards Susan not you BooksBrown.
    RoyalDynamo
  • lets just agree that we can't judge a group by a few cases.
    RoyalDynamo
  • OK, here's one objection for instance, I strongly object to the fact that many of the priests in my town, and others, knew about the child abuse that was taking place within the church and failed to report it, or put a stop to it, they in fact facilitated it in most cases by moving priests to another parish when rumors spread

    I object to the fact that I was told not to have sex before marriage by a priest who visited our school, who was posthumously exposed as having a common law wife who he had taken into his house as a teenage girl

    I object to the Catholic church condemning the use of contraception in countries where people can't afford to feed their children

    I'm not saying everyone in the Catholic church is bad, I just think the institution of the church is corrupt at it's core.

    This has nothing to do with my views on Christianity, which I think, like most religions, suggests being kind to people and living your life with honesty and integrity, which I would definitely espouse

    SusanB
  • Well that's cool. I don't think that the church should have all the power that it has. I think it should have a lot of respect though. It all fits into being humble.
    RoyalDynamo
  • However it shouldn't take advantage of that respect. I know that this is a futile dream due to human nature, and I am not talking about the men of the church but of the religion itself.
    RoyalDynamo
  • "A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope." Sounds more like an attack by the pope on all that is secular.

    My opinion in response: the papacy is antiquated.
    designtrash
  • Though the good representers of the church should also be respected because of their sacrifices.
    Hooray For Pope John Paul The Second!!!
    RoyalDynamo
  • Susan,
    Then we agree! I knew it.

    I agree priests who covered up criminal and unholy behavior should be punished.
    Priests who break their vows must be dealt with by the authorities of the Church.
    And there is a debate amongst Christian about contraceptive use.

    But none of these strikes me as core issues.

    It seems to me the core of the Catholic faith is this:
    God exists. You were created in the image of God. God desires communion with his creation and sent his Son, Jesus, to live and die (and resurrect!) so as to provide a message of hope in a troubled world.

    The Apostles and Nicean creeds are core issues.

    BooksBrown
  • BooksBrown, I don't think we agree at all

    Priests who commit crimes should be dealt with by the justice system like everyone else, not some special church authority. They should recieve the same sentences as everyone else.

    Those issues are core as far as I'm concerned, they are how the church interacts with the lay people who support them financially and otherwise.
    SusanB
  • Priest who commit crimes should be dealt with by the justice system. We agree. Priest who are not celibate need to be dealt with by the church authorities. And again, I think we agree.

    While those might be your core issues, or the core issues you would like the church to adopt, from a historical, theological and practical perspective, monitoring the criminal behavior of some renegade priests is certainly not at its core.

    BooksBrown
  • That is funny - I blamed organized religion for all the world's sufferings. Especially the legacy of the catholic church, and the backwards state the middle ages left us with.

    We have a president on a crusade, and what percentage of the USA believes the world is only 12,000 years old?

    How many people do not believe in evolution?

    How much is backwards ideology like this costing us?

    What about the world bank and how they are ruining 3rd world countries - how many of these people justify their shameless actions with their religion?

    How many AIDS cases because the church will not condone condom use?

    End of days reasoning, scientology and all of the other cults, neocons, terrorists...

    I will take my chances with the Atheists - and the Dali Lama!
    slamdance
  • The core issue here is Papal authority. The pope is useing scripture to negate the need for secular justice. SusanB is doing a great job of showing why we shouldn't follow Papal authority. When BooksBrown says "Priest who commit crimes should be dealt with by the justice system", he is disagreeing with the core of what the pope is saying in the article cited in this post.


    designtrash
  • designtrash,
    The article makes no mention of scripture, and I'd be even more surprised is the Pope appealed to scripture to make his point BC the catholic church has long adopted natural law theory that allows for moral argument based on reason and common experience and not particular, special, divine revelation (i.e. the Bible).

    I dont know what it means to "negate the need for secular justice", so I'm not clear if the Pope is attempting this or not. What he does suggest, though, is that any system of justice based on the arbitrary human conventions about right or wrong is bound to leave humanity wanting.



    BooksBrown
  • The Pope derives his authority from scripture, no? Is it not scipture that the pope is relying upon when he states:

    "We must do all we can to overcome suffering, but to banish it from the world is not in our power," Benedict wrote. "Only God is able to do this."

    If it is not scripture, then the pope is relying on his own institutions word, and that is begging the question. Thus, the core issue here is Papal authority. My first statement is that Papal authority is antiquated. Papal authority has been on retreat ever since the enlightenment and we as a people emerged from the Dark Ages.

    The quote "A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope" is a direct attack on secular Jurisprudence.

    If secular Jurisprudence is hopeless, why do you agree that the Priests who serve the Catholic Church should be prosecuted by its laws?

    designtrash
  • Yes, the Pope derives his authority from Scripture and tradition. I'm not sure how this helps your point.

    Fortunately, we dont need divine revelation to determine that man has had terrible difficulty banishing suffering from our world.
    Additionally, much of our 'secular legal system' rests on moral assumptions articulated by natural law theory. Natural law theory allows people, like the pope, to argue for moral convictions without an appeal to revelation and only to reason.

    And you havent responded to the glaring weakness of your view: what happens what morality is a matter of social convention? Genocide, homie.

    You build up a straw man and knock it down. I never claimed secular jurisprudence is hopeless, only that a secular jurisprudence grounded on shifting, contemporary, moral conventions hopeless. Thankfully, our american legal system is grounded by nonnegotiable moral truths: taking of an innocent human life is wrong, etc.
    BooksBrown
  • My comments are aimed at this line "A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope".

    The pope is using the same logic of Islamic Theocracy. To truly govern, justice needs to be based in the word of god. The problem with that is what god do you subscribe to? Which texts are the legitimate texts and why? How do you know you are interpreting them correctly?

    A way to solve this problem is to be tolerant of each others religious beliefs. Separate our private beliefs about the mysteries of existence from the pragmatic day to day transactions of society. That would be the project of the United States of America. We do fail regularly at ascending to this virtue, however it is better to attempt to ascend to tolerance than to revert to religious war or, as the Pope is suggesting, give up hope on our better nature.

    BooksBrown,
    You state "I never claimed secular jurisprudence is hopeless." No you didn't, the Pope did. The post is about the Pope and what the Pope said. My comments are against Papal authority. When you have hope for secular jurisprudence, you are disagreeing with the authority of the pope. That’s all. I haven’t seen anyone on this thread condemn Christianity as being bankrupt on virtues to teach society. However, the Pope as a leader in the West can shut it down if this is what he thinks.
    designtrash
  • I have seen people trash christianity by saying the world will be better without it.
    RoyalDynamo
  • Slamdance,
    Just so you know Christians do not condemn evolution. We condemn the idea Charles Darwin used because it in no way stated that God guided the creation. Added on to this, a great deal of AIDs in Africa is caused by African males not wanting to wear condoms because it desensitizes sex.
    RoyalDynamo
  • I am with Slam Dance on this one folks. Organized religious beliefs are the cause of most of the suffering in the world, not today's atheists.

    The mere world view that mankind is inherently evil and in need of salvation manifests and validates such a reality. All scripture is inspire by thoughts about God, but any man who claims to speak for God is a liar, except perhaps Jesus. I believe he was the powerful human being he was because he had realized his oneness with the creator. Oneness with the creator was Jesus's core message and his most important idea. In his last moments before being handed over to the romans to be tried and crucified in the Garden of Gethsemane, he prayed "I pray not for my self, but for those whom you have entrusted to me, that they may be one as you and I are one." (This oneness of being with the creator undoubtedly led to the idea of the trinity, but Jesus himself never spoke about a triune god head.)

    (Perhaps the other scripture that where Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as a helper somehow personified the Holy Spirit in the minds of those early Bishops and church scholars. Jesus himself told us that the Holy Spirit is "like the wind, we do not know from where it comes or where it goes." If the Holy Spirit is a person, then he must be a very confused one not knowing whether he is coming or going.)

    If you have studied the history of the church you would already know that the church has from practically it's inception been infiltrated by those who had their own agendas, not those of Jesus. Jesus himself warned of such a thing happening, and believe you me they (the nebulous "they") did not waste any time in seizing the opportunity to take control. They, those guilty of having the audacity to decide that they speak for god and have the "true" interpretations of God's intentions and the "true" meaning of Jesus's words, have co-opted his words to create the beast that is Christianity today, almost 2.1 billion people. Catholic and Protestant are two sides of the same coin just like Republicans and Democrats are. They are two sides locked in a dichotomy.

    Thanks to Emperor Constantine who made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, he fulfilled the prophecy of John the beloved when he married politics and religion; forming the Holy Roman Empire. Papal authority was derived from Imperial Decree. (John predicted that the kings of the earth would commit fornication with the priests.)

    It was at the council of Nicea and because of Alexander's Homo-Eroticism and love of the Christ and his own obsession with his emperor/god status that Jesus was elevated from being a mere mortal to being a "god like" being when it came to core beliefs of the Catholic Church. He was christened Michael, which means "one who is like god." And the bishops claimed that he was part of a triune God; father, son and holy ghost - three persons in one god. Hello everybody, but this is polytheism!! But hey the Romans were already used to that. Oh and what more, they changed Jesus birthday from September to December so they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia - hey instead of calling it that why don't we call it Christmas and then we can turn Christmas into the greatest merchandising scam in history. (Sorry but i felt the need to be a little sarcastic here.)

    (Continued on next post)
    jubal
  • All of the beliefs from other so called Christian churches that believed in reincarnation, the miracles of Jesus, and what are considered Gnostic traditions and apocryphal scripture (gospels from Mary Magdalene, Timothy, Judas and others) by the Catholic church were labeled heretics, their writings were seized and burned and their ideas had to go underground to avoid persecution by the official state religion. All of the Roman pagan holidays and celebrations were continued to be observed only they were given nice Christian names to make the transition and assimilation of the people much smoother.

    The early church leaders under Papal Authority established by Roman Emperor made sure that their new version of Christianity was properly codified and disseminated. For god's sake the church forbade any lay person from reading the bible at all, it was in Latin, and any original texts were either locked away in vaults in the Vatican catacombs, or burned and destroyed, and even locked away in private collections. When people talk about the King James or the NIV versions they are talking about translations done on bible copies that were already 1200 years old. Don't delude yourself for one second thinking that they had copies of the originals. For all we know with all the megalomania going around in the Holy Roman Empire, a lot of things written could and probably did get changed.

    There can only be one supreme being; the creator. He/She doesn't have multiple personalities. Jesus was very clear about these things in all of his sayings and prayers. He did not even want people to pray to him either. When he gave people an example of how to pray he said "Our Father who art in Heaven."

    With all that said, whatever the Pope has to say is meaningless to me. He is an antiquated relic. He is a hypocrite, too, condemning homosexuality when he himself is a closet queen - wearing red Prada shoes.
    jubal
  • design,
    I'm sorry I havent made my point more clearly.

    The Pope said:
    "A world that has to create its own justice is a world without hope."

    I've agreed with the Pope in my previous posts. I'm sorry you didnt see that.

    Now, do you think notions of right, wrong, good and evil are "created" or "recognized/discovered"?

    If you think right and wrong are mere human fabrications, arbitary social conventions then you hold to a system of hopelesness because the results are a shifting world ethic that cant authoritatively nor convincingly condemn the WRONG and EVIL that has happened in the past and that continues to happen today ALL ACROSS the world.

    The Pope and Catholic tradition argues that there are moral truths that can be arrived at by moral reasoning (and not an appeal to the BIBLE). On this view, justice is not created but instead discovered. This is called natural law theory. I've said this at least twice before. What's going on?

    Peep game:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law_theory