maybe

thank you for sharing your thoughts. I much appreciate your honest objectivity. It's a far cry from the smug (usually evolutionist) sob you usually hear from. I think you really touch on something that should be more commonly acceptable...that most of us are convinced we can't normally experientially know jack while in the "tent" of this body...(although there ARE those who have died or have NDEs and come back, and their testimonies remarkably, invariably, do NOT just say there's utter nothingness after this thing we call life, unfortunately for most "evolutionists" who would seem to critically claim this is all there is...usually they have very interesting stories to tell of their experiences. If you're interested:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research11.html

)

I for one am accepting of Intelligent Design at least as theory if only because life is just so VERY *specifically* fine-tuned that the probability mere chance alone (even given vast amounts time) could be responsible for such an incredibly diverse balance of such fantastic complexity is absolutely utterly amazing! Even many scientists know for a fact that if some things aren't just exactly (poignantly) right, or even a miniscule bit "off" many things in "life" just do NOT happen, and there is no "chance" for life at all. And no scientist has ever been able to produce any life form from the elements much as they claim we were "created." *shrug* ...seems they never will.

And of course, you're so right to naturally question, as you state, where even the "big bang" material originates from...it's seemingly the eternal seat of the problem evolution itself can never explain. I just don't think that traditional "evolutionists" need be so damn (indignantly) concerned as the theory or simple concept of Intelligent Design per se, doesn't have to go so far as religion clearly does, or attempts to! It seems in their denial unto death that "evolution," which let us remember is only a theory itself as there are "holes" in it...(i.e. there are things it cannot explain, that is to say, it's NOT the theory of everything) actually *becomes* their OWN "blind" religion! So ironic... I believe the truth of origin is closer to the fact that no one can really *prove* anything so "definitively" at least not yet, until perhaps "God" calls strict account at some time. I mean, damn...these authoritiative scientists can't even agree amongst themselves with any "proof" what gravity even physically is, although we KNOW what it does!!! And we damn sure accept it, don't we!!!

Why would it be "SO wrong" to state, with some dignity, that some view the universe as a product of a creative God, citing whatever examples of perhaps why some people believe that way, and simply just leave it at that. What harm is *really* done? People can just go on to a religious studies class if they even really care to pursue it any further I say. But science doesn't have to be so damn smug about their own unproven "scientific" hopes/beliefs that there is no God so much that just the idea of Intelligent Design is excluded so immediately out of hand to preserve the integrity of "science" and really the claimed and "dominant" (presumed) status quo of "evolution." Cool out I say...

the only religion I've rather only vaguely studied is Christianity and that "good book" states that God claims He says "I am that I am" which I'm not sure I've ever really understood. It also says that He (God) always was, always is, and always will be...that He (His nature) never changes. "If" He exists, He's certainly going to be very foreign to anyone!!! But not being able to explain or prove "Him" doesn't necessarily have to mean He doesn't exist! *sigh* or somewhat conversely that He'd be too dumb to create what *we're* too stupid to explain in the first place...

Hey its very simple.

Des Carte said "I think therefore I am." But ask yourself does that really explain identity? Where does identity spring from? Our past?

Who is doing the thinking?

Des Carte perhaps should have more accurately have said, "I am therefore I think."

This has so much more meaning because it implies that there is a level of consciousness that exists beyond the act of thinking. One can exist without thinking in a state of consciousness that precedes thoughts and emotions.

That is where God is. God is in the place of being that is identified in pure being. It is the place where all life is connected and it is the source of all life. Everything that has life thinks. But thinking itself is not the true identity of the being. The being is before the thinking is.

Intelligent design doesn't really have to do with religion and is not incompatible with science.

Especially when quantum physics postulates that every atom has an observer in its nucleus. This is mindboggling to contemplate and the only explanation that makes sense to me is that the observer in the atom is God. And we are made of atoms so we are God too. We are observers first, and thinkers and feelers second.

Thinking is a tool, emotions are tools that we use to communicate and interact with other living things. But many times, because the vast majority of people are following Des Carte and have their identities wrapped up in thinking, then they can justify in their thinking all sorts of suffering.

wow... =D that's deeper water to tread than I ever knew to contemplate =P thanks jubal! =D

i like your ideas...i think. =D Glad you also think Intelligent Design isn't quite the "infidel" so many scientists cry about like little "beachz" because they're protecting little more than personal prejudice imnsho.

but I'm aware that this quantum physics also touches on questions of predestination somehow (as when these scientists are trying to send atomic particles back in time), but I'm not really sure I've understood that either =P lol =D

great stuff to ponder and truly contemplate. hopefully I may come back to this post when I've had more time to clear out my head, dig and "dwell" on it =D but maybe you have some links or resources that we can read to help us along the way??? ;)

hey, thanks for helping the rest of us "think" outside the box jubal!!! =D

The people who defend against intelligent design do so out of their own ego. They have invested their life's work in their thinking processes and theories.

When instead they should allow the theory to be examined and considered as a possibility among an infinite number of possibilities.

The quantum wave is a wave of infinite possibilities that coalesces around an observers thoughts and becomes particles that we interpret as solid matter. Thoughts affect the state of the wave and turn them into particles.

If you like to read and check out some stuff, I would suggest the following.

What the Bleep do we Know

Dr. Quantum

Brave New World

A New Earth; awakening to your life's purpose

Illusions (by the author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull)

A few to start with....

with what these few words may imply and accepting that all are easily questionable, there still remains one semi logical train of thought.
so in the end what feels better, to treat someone nicely or not?
when do we, as average, say the word god the most, most of the time?
the abusive behavior towards each other only based on pure pleasure, on negating reality, on not seeing or truly asking ourselves why we interact
with each other, more than
having to go through the mere action which is naturally socially unavoidable. we are based to go for the goal, not for the road, we are told
we must must succeed in a set up that is distorted, basically humanly self created to deny ourselves true well being.

believing in facts and accepting them as rational guidance that we have come to inherit from ourselves from so many generations of people reasoning and
investigating and thinking about the same issues we have nowadays, how to work with each other, sharing the end, sharing the profits, and the joy.
Nowadays it is a call from our planet that our incredible amount of information has lead us through facts to know. It is us who through reason
have come to accept that either we share the goal, or we are done as a caring creature towards it's own giver of life, not only each other, but
also the aka earth.
The rules are clear, we have no question about how to work towards equality and true freedom, politically and socially, we have
become aware of many realities that talk to us through thought, so linearly, that reality has become easier to see more than ever before.
There are not that many more questions to be answered, we know most of the answers. if The being is before the thinking is, then
we know we have that fight between facts, the origin, being, or what we conceptualize as reality. we know what the needs are for us to carry on
thought time, it is now that we must finally act together.
we must start interacting with each other without inherited debt, emotional and economical, or the consequence of
our irrational behavior towards ourselves will make us live through times which we can foretell will be worse than what we are capable of
creating. We can see in our past and we can trace a line, it is up to us to make it go towards the needed common goal.
we are responsible for ourselves, we are god.

"Thinking is a tool, emotions are tools that we use to communicate and interact with other living things. But many times,
because the vast majority of people are following Des Carte and have their identities wrapped up in thinking, then they can
justify in their thinking all sorts of suffering."