Iraqi deaths: Johns Hopkins U estimates now perhaps a million, mostly civilians, some babies

carolyn...you and i both know...americans dont see iraqis as people. and will never care.

sucks but you know its true. Last week i wrote an email to UN sec general moon..but im sure he wont get it...and last night i wrote an email to Nelson Mandela..but im sure the same thing.

but im hoping. i have no faith in american politicians.....or people. but i commend you for trying.

had to register just to respond to okinawa... how dare you group all americans into your narrow assumptions of us? you think that of the some 300 million americans there are 0 that care about iraqis? this type of prejudging is, I believe, how we end up in horrible situations like these.

Yes, Bush is a war criminal. No, he's not going to get tried and hanged like he should.

I don't suppose you've noticed any of the millions of protesters here in the usa that hate the war and have always hated the war. you are so off base it makes me sick.

It hurts me that people mischaracterize all Americans as you have here. There are a lot of them that are bad. There are a lot of bad in every culture.blacks Jews Muslims, whites. There are more beautiful and compassionate people I think...in every culture.

I am glad that you responded first wtenny.
I was having a hard time swallowing that accusation that group all Americans with Bushes policies and all Israelis with the policies of their government.

This misunderstanding is what makes us hate each other as groups okinowamajic.

I was also one of the millions protesting many times.

I am sick over the plight of innocent Iraqis,s, Palestinians, Israeli, and Okinawans.who just want to wake up each morning and take care of their families.

I feel like extreme forces in each culture are in place that make peace difficult.We need more networking on resources such as Current.com and less listening to mainstream media.

look...i think you get me wrong. but look at the trends. if all the people as you say did care, this would stop right? people would be out in the streets right? where are they? americans cant even get our education system fixed! and we live it! 50% of af americans drop out? our media is garbage, our primary and highschool ed system is jacked and worthless.

americans (this is a general statement) do not care about anyone. america only cares about its own troops, and are so slowminded that they really dont care about them either. there are more people that support this than dont. and you know that that is true. so to lump all americans in to the majority is true. look i hate this MORE than you all probably, but america doesnt care about Brown people across the world that happen to be of another faith....america wont help darfur, but wants to boycott the olympics or threaten to because of tibet? are you shitting me.....yes americans are ignorant fools by and large. listen..i think its great that you think so..and im glad that YOU protested..but then that means that im not talking about YOU!! but there are 300 million americans...guess what even if you are one of 4 million people that care, ...do the math...296 million dont! you might like to think the most positive of your people (im american too...unfortunatley) but the fact remains..americans 1. dont care..by and large 2. wont do anything for brown people across the world of a different faith..

americans still think they are all al quada. why? because americans believe everything they see and hear on tv!

argue and hate it all you like, but you know im right!

well maybe we do care, but not enough

IF WE CARED ENOUGH we would have solved this problem already..

sum people r just too busy

I give a shit.
I am American.

...also my grandparents were in Russia and my Grandfather was a victim of discrimination He was taken from his mother at the age of 5 and marched through Russian countryside because of his cultural background.. My grandparents fled Russia in fear in 1910 to the USA. They were not holding slavery near and dear.

I am done arguing. I give up.

Carolyn, I'm pretty much sure you and Okinawa are on the same side of the fence, it's just that you guys have different styles.

one says we are all bad, the other that some of us (or most) of us aren't

truth is... (i don't really know what the truth is...)

well, i want to believe that you both are wrong and you both are right.

we all have the potential to be good or bad, it's a decicion we make every day, at every hour, confronting every situation.

Americans know what the best thing to do is, it's just that we are still a lil indifferent toward the issue at hand, mainly because it's setting is in a far away place, and most of us haven't been heavily affected personally.

Once a person here posted that if our government implemented a draft the war would not last a month more (or sum like that), and i silently agreed...



we are capable of doing it if we just put our minds to it

then it doesnt apply to you, and congrats on being american! but if because you decide to take personal what i say, doesnt take away from the fact that ...A. i am still correct in what i am saying....and B. it still exists!

your family could have came from the moon last week...does that mean all that i said doesnt exist? just because you personally dont hold those views, doesnt mean that the MAJORITY OF OTHER AMERICANS dont!!

and its not an argument...its a rout! you posted something that i have been saying on these boards since ive been here, that killing all the civilians is the shame of this war....good for both of us, we are on the same team. but when i say, look americans dont care either way, you decide to say ...OOHH NO AMERICANS DO CARE BECAUSE I CARE. well you are one person out of 300 million. then another person says...i cant believe you are saying that about americans..ON A THREAD ABOUT A MILLION IRAQIS ARE KILLED....SO FAR (basically) do you not see the irony of this argument? she was up in arms about how can you jack on americans...we do huh care! well if americans did care like i said...5 years into this ONGOING WAR..then the relevance of this story or thread WOULD BE IRRELEVANT!!! if americans 3 years ago gave a shit...this thread WOULDNT EXIST! gave a shit 4 years ago then this thread WOULDNT EXIST OR BE RELEVANT!!! we are starting the 6th year of this war...still i see no people demanding that this war stop..which leads me to believe that A. people are chicken shit...B. too lazy to do anything.. C. support it!

if you cant understand what i mean, then seriously...re read it until you do. we all want the same thing, im just telling you about your belived people and their value system. something im sure you already know about, or else deep down, you wouldnt have posted this either. you wouldnt have posted this if you didnt think it could CHANGE minds.

CBS News Poll. March 15-18, 2008. N=1,067 adults nationwide. MoE � 3 (for all adults). .


http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

This is not pasting into the box accurately but I want to show you that 91% of Democrats Oppose Iraq and Bush.

The other part of country I take no responsibility for...they are mostly nuts or vulnerable elderly who are set in their ways of getting information from the media... uneducated and/or taking huge profits from his crooked policies.

Is is right to blame Iraqi people for Saddam Husein's actions? Why didn't they stop it? They must have approved to have let him go on for so long. They must have liked to have people get tortured....see how silly this sounds?

It is not right to blame every American for this madman, Bush's policies. Many people don't know how bad it is..many of the people around me work hard going to school and trying to take care of their families. This govt likes people to be off guard because it makes it easier to steal money from our treasury.



"Do you approve or disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling the situation with Iraq?"
Approve Disapprove Unsure
% % %
ALL adults 30 65 5

Republicans
65 -- 30 ---- 5


Democrats
6 --- 91 ---- 3



Independents
32 ---- 64 ------ 4

well CG, in mexico we have a saying that goes NO SE PREOCUPE, OCUPESE


Why don't we impeach Bush now?

Why don't we bring our troops home now?

Do you think this is solely our politicians' fault?

we are the ones that allowed this to achieve such magnitude

by burning bush we are not redeemed...

ok..although i think you were trying to cut and paste and it didnt work out so well....lets go one step further...

300 million people in america. lets say that 200 million of them are adults or under 18 thats 33% that allows for a good margin of error.

now out of 200 million lets split the R/D together. ok? and i will use your percentages.

200 million adults 30% approve..or 60 million for
65% dissapprove or 130 million against 5% unsure or stupid...10 million

ok. now im not going to split it up among dems and repubs...hell yea i will

of the 100 million D's 91% dissaprove..thats 91 million people

and of R's 30% or 30 million people disapprove

total..thats 91m+30m+ 121million people that dont agree with this war.

now where the hell are they? a few hundred thou i can see how you may over look them...but 121 million people screaming out loud every day!!!!! i would notice that shit.

so as a general rule...and as not disproving my statement...americans WILL NOT DO ANYTHING TO SAVE ANYONE! AMERICANS DO NOT CARE ENOUGH TO ACTIVELY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

hell even half of the 121 million is hard to ignore..60.5 million people out every day? hell even 30 million people is alot...hell 15 million people is hard to ignore.

i dont see any...i just see you and I! thats it.

my point is proven.

You are right that there should be people screaming in the streets. I don't know where they are

...many of the students are busy with their studies and trying to be good kids and productive. Many of the kids I know have a heartfelt desire to want to help the world when they get out of school.. ..they are doing what they think is most productive right now and studying very hard. Consumed in their studies.

You are right that they are not affected for the most part because there is not a draft. I noticed that when I went to Iraqi protests...after walking in both Vietnam and Iraq ...there was a lack of young people in Iraq marches. You are correct that it seems far off to them. During Vietnam people were protesting from all communities. Many were affected because of the draft.

. I also think the graduating students will get on the right track because they get their news from the internet and not CNN and Fox...they are more aware of BBC.

I don't know what we can do to get this fool Bush out of office. It doesn't make sense to me. ..what does he need to do to be taken out...? Do you have any suggestions??? I would like to know what to do...a lot of people would...
A lot of us now are hoping that Obama might be a little better..? He might be. I like most of what he says but I am not sure if it is hot air like it has always been..

but ....when people want change, there is no obstical! if you believe that you are being wronged, but you have to work that day, you take off work. students go to class, ok yoou protest when you get off. protest when you get off work. there are many ways to show your displeasure publically and loudly. yet no one does it. americans can answer the phone and say, yea i dont like this or that...im sure most people will agree that our feeo supply is full of garbage, yet no one protests loudly. there is so much garbage in our food, that STARVING AFRICANS BOYCOTT OUR GRAIN BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT IT IN THEIR BODIES, THEY WOULD RATHER DIE!!!

no i dont know if anyone ever paid attention to that fact, but that is crazy. what is it that is killing us? its the same thing....25 years ago, the average age of girls getting their first period was 16+ years old....now its close to 11 years old?! WTF that doesnt scare you?

ADD is a house hold name.lead poisoning is actually higher rather than lower even though they took the lead out of paint...now there is more in the water than there was when pollution was crazy! and like i said earlier..our education is garbage...all in the course of 15 years! my daughter is being cheated!

but americans dont do shit. I go to PTA meetings and i laugh to the point i have to leave, because its a fart smelling contest. i tutor at my lil girls school. and they dont help me with where the kids are, they just use us to say their school has so many tutors and that they are dedicated to the kids. WHEN I WAS IN TAMPA...2007...I WAS THE ONLY MALE TUTOR IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY! THATS FUCKING RIDICULOUS yet americans bitch and whine about shit.

like i said, americans dont do anything for themselves, and they will never do anything for anyone else!

This whole thread makes my head spin, so much SHOUTING IN CAPS! CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME!

hahaha...its all gravy son. i use caps when i want to either emphasize something, or not use quotation marks. ...its all good carolyn and rabidlemur.....no harm no foul.

The article cited seems to be extrapolating from an earlier Johns Hopkins study to get the 1 million figure, so the headline is a bit irresponsible. I for one would like to know the ACTUAL number of Iraqi deaths, not some guess. To claim it as a fact with no data is the kind of thing that makes it easy for people to ignore your views. This kind of thing is a big part of why the American left has no real political power or credibility.

And, for all of you who want an immediate end to the war and a pullout of the troops...then what? How many more Iraqis will die then? As unpopular as this view is, I can't see any other way to go morally then to stay until Iraq is stable.

then how and why do you do it. true that the us screwed the pooch, and i see the point and reasons for staying, but until an actual building situation is established there, and an air if restraint is taken, then it doesnt matter how long you stay there, you will never achieve what ever goals the us has.(which i think the goals change every single day!)

Iraqi companies in charge of the rebuilding? nope..or at least i dont think so. are iraqi troops guarding the rebuilding efforts? i dont think so? maybe but i think that that is not priority one. if you want to get out of there, you put the people to work, and if the security issue is at stake, then you guard the people that are doing the building so you can go home. you put people to work so they cant shoot at your ass! remember old school china? ( 10 years ago?) 2000 people using hoes and shovels instead of earthmoving equipment. why? because it employes more people. put all those people to work. hire sanitation workers to clean the streets, and pay them. you think the citizens will allow the so called insurgents to fuck up their gig? hell no! infrastructure is the key. a large scale WPA project is needed. stop trying to muscle your way through the neighborhoods. thats what needs to be done, but since 1. the military people are too stupid to know that...2. the friggin president is too stupid to know that (either here or there) then civi's will continue to die...and you have no choice but to leave, because then all you are doing is taking up space, lying to the world, and killing people, without improving anything.

like the Tucker picture....couldnt find a better one?

O-majik, you seem to believe Bush went into Iraq for WMD or something....maybe chase down Bin Laden or something...or give any other excuse for being in Iraq...all of which are not true. The true purpose was to make themselves richer (Halliburton) and insure a second Bush term by making sure we were in a war at election time. 911 gave GWB the perfect excuse and most people bought it, not all, most. So there is no way and of your Iraq solutions would ever be considered by Bush and friends. As for Americans not caring or doing anything for anyone, what exactly would be a satisfactory definition of doing something for someone? For the 2003 article you posted maybe you wanted Americans to evacuate all of the Liberians to where? Or leave aid workers there, who really wouldn't be of any help once they were dead, or maybe step in and get involved in a civil war and pick a side to fight on? Isn't that the problem in Iraq now? And you said you, an American father, went to tutor, but they didn't give you any help? Help with what? What exactly is it that would satisfactorily define 'helping' for you? And please don't presume to know what 'everyone' thinks/does. The only person whose thoughts/actions you can actually presume to speak of are your own. As for the number of Iraqi deaths, I would think it to be about right. And to think one of the reason GWB used to justify being in Iraq was because Saddam Hussein killed 1,000,000+ Iraqis. So what does that make the GWB...besides a guy with friends he helped make rich off of poor American and Iraqi blood. Again I say we should never enter any war unless we all have to participate. We won't be a ble to know how many Iraqis died until the dying is done....and that doesn't look like any time soon.

I give a shit.....

This war on Iraq began in 1991 and in my opinion is America's longest running war, unless you count the Korean War which ended in an armistice. The Johns Hopkins study should include the UNICEF estimate of one million Iraqi deaths due to the sanctions regime, to which Madeline Albright, informal policy advisor to Hillary Clinton, hastily but tellingly responded, "the price is worth it."

Well many Americans now oppose the war--because it's the popular thing to do. Most people wouldn't dare go against Bush or his cronies but now every body is against Bush like it's a fashion statement.

The war is wrong and always has been wrong. The total lack of civilian life unacceptable--yet no one really cares because our leadership has done a good job at not only dehumanizing Saddam--but Arabs as well.

Would Americans have cared is the same happened to Mexicans or Chinese? Probably not--but what if 1 million Germans have died, or even one million Jews--that would almost be a genocide.

Blazeboy, if it were your family's country being brutalized would you want to wait for accurate number before something was done to stop their murder?
The numbers I used were from a current ...2008..Johns Hopkins report.

and here is the information again in the British News...lacking in the USA at all. It is as if it does not matter. Have you seen the HBO Documentary of Iraqi E.R.?

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2008/04/military_i...


Regarding your concern about a withdrawal from the Marine Times.
U.S. must leave Iraq, retired generals say

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/iraq
“The only sensible strategy is to withdraw rapidly but in good order,” Odom said. “Only that step can break the paralysis now gripping U.S. strategy in the region.”

...also Blazeboy..why don't you go over and help make Iraq stable?
Maybe your children would like to enlist..
I would let mine go over my dead body....seriously.
I would have been proud to have had them sign up at other points in history to defend our country...not to go through this horror show illegal occupation for this president's ego.

anjela 3 its an issue of peace keeping. the purpose of military might is first for defense, second for detant. yes the us as the so called side of right, has an obligation to try to sequester civilians from war and fighting.

if there is a force laying attacks specifically on civilians, yes it is everyone who is witness to the carnage to try to stop it...actively if you can. mainly if you have the ability. the us had the ability, but would only come in and protect the embassy! thats chickenshit to me...and at the time the polls stated that americans did not support helping the liberians.

as for my tutoring and the schools not helping me. the issue was i got a kid infront of me, and im like...ok what have you been doing today...first of all this kid doesnt wanna be in there anyways. he has to be...so i ask the teachers ( via calls or e-mail) to tell me where they are in the lesson so he doesnt fall behind...nothing. the teachers wont answer...ever. i want to know what lesson they discussed that day or the day before to keep him on task...nothing. i demand it from the principle and she says i cant force the teacher to do anything they are under contract. ?!! what?!! yet the teacher forces the kid over to where i am so she doesnt have to deal with him! BENITO MIDDLE SCHOOL IN NEW TAMPA FL..33647 HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY this kid already was behind a grade....and was flunking every other class. also, when he came in the school councelor completely humiliated this kid in front of other students.....( I quickly put an end to this lady and yacked at her like there was no tomorrow!! she started to cry and the office aid kids laughed like crazy..i got what i wanted) this kid was a black kid and i felt bad. then i talked to the other tutors and they said they got no help either, so they just talked all day. nothing got done.

back to original topic. a works projects needs to be done in iraq. get the people back to work. create a sense of citizenship. use the security forces to protect the workers...and bolster the police forces to prevent actual crime. the reason iraq is the way it is in my opinion, is because it is being treated as a war zone....the attitude is, its a war zone so lets treat people like they are all against us. position troops outside the cities to prevent an influx of contraband, and get shit done...thats how you get out.

Absolutely agreed with the works project...but that's not why Bush went into Iraq. He went in to make $ (again Halliburton) and to insure a re-election. And actually early on I was under the impression thats exactly what we were going to do. Maybe Colin Powell would have persuaded Bush to go that route (your suggestions) and he probably did....which is exactly why he was run out (not a team player and all that).
As for your daughter's school, I hope you didn't just give in like all the other 'tutors'. As long as we sit by and allow this to happen, we are part of the problem. Go up the ladder, to the principal, no satisfaction, to the school board, no satisfaction, to the Commissioner of education, no satisfaction, to the governor, no satisfaction, to the state and then federal govt (congress people...the ones that give the money to schools). It takes time and committment, but fixing the things tht are wrong is not easy...it is easy to sit by and complain how things are bad which is probabl;y why things remain the way they are. Too hard/time consuming to do something about it.
Being an activist will eventually pay off....If its important enough to you.

i agree. i went to the school board, thats how i found out i was the only male tutor in the county. i was so disheartened that i did stop going. the kids mother didnt want to help her son. the teachers didnt want to help, and the school board basically repeated what the principle said. cant do anything because they are under contract. in florida..jeb bush owns the FCAT..and thats what they teach...nothing more or less. and their A school designation is based upon that. the state cares less about anything except the test. all the reps support the test. and jeb bush is the presz's brother...so going to the president isnt going to help...

back on topic....today one airstrike..the guy they targeted....and 6 civilians.

like i said, america could care less about these people.

yes, they treat them literally as subhuman. the new targets on the civilian list? anyone carrying a shovel, anyone on the street past curfew and anyone on their roof talking on their cell phone. isn't that ridiculous? and we call ourself a democracy. we are a torture state torturing iraqis at guantanamo bay to find information. how sad is that?