Your credit and you?

Here are a couple of my thoughts on this subject. I will come back and share more later, too.

We live in a capitalism economy. For this type of economy to work, there must be a constant rate of consumption or the system starts to fall apart. So the corporations that practice this type of capitalism have to brainwash as many people as they can by embedding their message into the culture, consume, consume, consume.

There have been several books that take a look at these questions that you have posed and one that readily comes to mind is "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley. In this book we see a future world were capitalism has taken over the entire world, save for one large reservation where all the savages are being contained under high voltage security fences. The savages are the indigenous peoples, some Christians, Mormons, Buddhists, and various other groups that refused to be assimilated into the Brave New World.

Corporations in this new world order own every human beings right to reproduce the old fashioned way, instead everyone is carefully hatched in human factories and assigned a place in the social hierarchy. Clones are used to do the work of mass production and farming. These clones are created in batches. The stratification of this system consists of 6 levels, the top is World Controller of which there are but a dozen or so, then there are Alpha's, Beta's, Delta's, Gammas, and Epsiloms. Each has a plus and a minus.

Everyone is educated using hypnopedia (sleep education while they are maturing into toddlers) They are told to consume, consume, consume. Children are taught sex from an early age and no one gives birth anymore. It has been socially engineered to make everyone believe that being a mother or a father is like calling someone a Knt or a KoK Skr; the most horrible insult you could say to someone is to call them Mommy or Daddy.

Movies are called feelys where you actually feel all the physical sensations of the protagonist; their kisses, their genitals.

Religions have been completely obliterated and corporate solidarity meetings have taken their place, everyone is kept on drugs all the time to make sure that they don't start having independent thoughts.

Media is piped into every nook and cranny with the specially designed hypnopedic dogma being constantly drilled into the minds of the people.

This book was written in 1933 and you would think it was talking about now.

We are not free economically, we are all slaves of capitalism and debt is a big part of that slavery. Truly to be free, we must renounce money, but this seems impossible because how would we live, what would we eat, where would we go? Sometime I envy the homeless on the street because they don't have credit card debts to pay, mortgages to pay, car loans to pay. They live off the kindness of strangers.

I have more to say on this subject but I have to get ready for work.

Until later, I am anxious to see what people say about the subject of debt and credit.

Oh and most books are banned.

Thanks for your response jubal. Interesting points. There is a culture of consumption. No doubt about that. Where does individual responsibility come into the picture? Or does it?

I just saw this article about a new text shopping feature from amazon for you cell phone.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/02/amazon-launche...

How has the ease of shopping changed things?

Look forward to your additional thoughts on this.

ugh, I can't really comment on this topic.. yet

i'm all about the green literally

and I am not the slightest bit interested in having a credit card...

I do not want to drown myself in debt

No need to overthink this one. Just stop it mayng!

After a crappy 1st credit card experience in college - I was 17- I got my first real credit card last year -- now 37. I simply had to do it because if I didn't I wouldn't be able to rent an apartment, buy a car, a house, or anything "grown up". It sucks, but I don't see how you can survive without one.

I've always had credit cards, but only carried a
balance for a brief period when finishing up in school.
My attitude toward credit comes mainly from my
father, who wouldn't buy a new car until there was
enough cash saved to buy without credit. I guess
I'd say I learned about credit in the back seat of
a very old station wagon.

if imma be travelling am i gonna need one too?

My credit score was pwned cuz I'm an idiot.

I have a credit card, but I've tried very hard to be responsible with it and not spend outside my means. I do have some small debt that I'm actively working to pay off, most of it student-related. Once I pay it off, I'm only using my credit card for the occasional major purchase, and even then I should have it budgeted in advance, so I know how long it'll take me to pay off (and it should never be too long) and I won't have to dip into savings. And I make sure to have lots and lots of savings.

I think a lot of people fall into debt -- not over a long period of time of overconsumption -- but rather very, very quickly in a matter of months because of one big disaster.

I've seen very frugal members of my family just get wiped out in a matter of months because a) the plant closes down b) the only car suddenly dies while their living off their savings c) don't worry insurance will cover half of your daughters dental surgery and you only owe $750 up front right now!

Bam! Bam! Bam!

You can go from $400 in emergency savings to $3,000 in debt in months. Sometimes weeks!

A lot of people are living "within their means" and have junk cars and have garage sale furniture and are still just living check to check praying nothing goes wrong. This family member lives out in the country in Michigan (where there are no jobs anywhere) and when the car dies -- BAM! Now what? Basically it's pay or die. There is no bus stops for miles and miles and miles in any direction. Well, why did they move out there? Because those are where the cheapest houses are.

You can make $35-$45k, live in a junky house, drive a car with 200k miles on it, sit on torn up sofas and still just barely get by. The cost of living is so out of control that it takes almost all your money just to keep a roof over your head and the lights on -- and if just one thing goes wrong (medical, car, new well for water) you will fall so far behind that you will never get up. Because it will take you years to pay off that debt and you'll be fine -- so long as absolutely nothing ever goes wrong within that 24 month period. And if even just one thing goes wrong your right back in the hole.

Just from my observation debt has almost nothing to do with overspending and everything to do with 1) no jobs 2) low, low wages 3) out of control premiums for healthcare 4) out of control prices on college tuition 5) gas prices 6) cost of living

In 1970 a brand new house cost $55,000. 4 years of college cost $20,000! A brand new car cost $4,000.

In 2007 our wages have increased by, oh, about 5 cents since 1970 (well, maybe 7 cents) and yet everything else has quadrupled in cost. Then qaudrupled again. And then again.

Just my observation.

How much higher can prices go? Is everything doomed to keep rising forever? Will our children be paying $7,000 a month in rent on a studio apartment? Paying $75,000 for a used car with 200k on it? Are prices doomed to just keep rising for ever and ever and ever?

I have only very recently acquired a credit card, but I cannot run up any debt on it - it is a "reload" credit card: I place the amount of money that I choose into its account. This way, I fully control how much I spend, and I cannot spend more than what is in its account. This way, I cannot get into debt, and am not charged any kind of interest. Until I got this card a month or so ago, I never had a credit card - having seen how friends and acquaintances got themselves into great debt through their credit card (and all the grief it brought them), I had always refused to get one -- until I discovered this fairly new system of "reload".

My bank direct debit card also has a credit function (Maestro) which I have used when abroad, but there is a monthly limit (geared to a sum lesser than my income) to how much I can spend with it. So there again, there is no way I can get into debt with it.

Wow, I don't think I've heard of this "reload" credit card, but it sounds like a smart thing and an ideal way to budget spending money for oneself.

For me, a credit card is necessary if I want to live near work, furnish the place I live and not be completely dependent on pay day. I think though that many people have the wrong idea of what a credit card is and how it should be used. Perhaps a little more education (on credit cards) and smart spending is in order as more and more people go into debt. I'm sure I could use it too.

While a lot of this does have to do with the cost of basic living going up (cars, gas, housing, etc.) a lot of it also has to do with people living beyond their means.

Let's face it, do you really need to live in a huge house? Or buy a new car every other year? Or carry a $300 designer bag or wear $200 designer shoes? A lot of people feel, for whatever reason, that they have to keep up with an unreasonable standard of living and that's going to require a major cultural shift to change.

I don't trust credit cards. Or maybe another way to say that is I don't trust myself with credit cards. I'm not to stoked about the idea of spending money I don't have. If there is something I want I'll save up to buy it.

A lot of young adults out there who get their first major credit card aren't totally aware of the debt that comes with it. I have friends who will charge $1000 on this and that and when the 1st of the month comes around they'll only pay the minimum on the card which sometimes can stretch from merely $30 to $100.

I once read a statistic that said nearly 80% of Americans are in debt and I believe it.

I would personally like to know how many people out there had THAT talk with their parents! I mean, isn't your financial well-being just as important as your health and emotional well-being?

I think there should be some kind of official Congressional study to determine exactly what the "debt" really is.

Because determining what the "debt" really is will influence our solution to the problem.

Right now no one really knows for certain. We know a significant number of Americans are broke and dealing with heavy debt loads -- but we have no hard evidence for what happened.

Was it all trips to Paris and big screen TV's?

Is the primary debt most Americans carry medical debts?

How was this debt accumulated? Was it buying McMansions and driving a fleet of fancy sports cars --- or was it job loss? Medical crisis?

Now, look at credit cards. The Bankruptcy law was rewritten on the ASSUMPTION that people declaring bankruptcy were just out buying big screen TV's and solid gold Blackberry's and just writting the debt off for kicks.

What if it were determined that the debt accumulated on credit cards wasn't luxury consumer goods but rather living expenses? What if people -- facing a sudden job loss or medical crisis -- were resorting to credit cards to buy groceries, put gas in the car, heck, even to make mortgage payments?

Would we treat that debt (and subsequently the ability to discharge that debt) differently?

I think we would and I think we should.

Resorting to credit cards as a last resort to stay afloat in times of financial crisis (because the "tough love" Republicans cut welfare benefits so much there isn't enough to sustain them in times of actual crisis) shouldn't really be punished as harshly or as severely as someone who racked up debt buying a few dozen Playstation 3's to give to their friends.

Krag wrote:

Where does individual responsibility come into the picture? Or does it?

I believe the individual responsibility of each of us is not be duped into allowing those things that we consume to become our identity. We must keep ourselves free from becoming possessed by possessions. This is not to say that we cannot have things around us, but we must recognize that no amount of things is going to make us any better of a person or give us the fulfillment that we truly desire.

Things are transient and they change or disappear. Ownership is an illusion. Other people have to agree that we own something, until that agreement disappears and then if we try to claim ownership we are treated as crazy ranting lunatics. So we never truly own anything except ourselves. We own our consciousness; we are that consciousness.

Credit is a distraction and a powerful one at that, this coupled with media bombardment to consume obey consume, it is robbing us of our true identity. It presents an image and tells us, look at what you could be, how admired you will be, how beautiful, etc. You are not enough the way you are, so consume to become something more. This is madness.

I reject Des Carte dictum of "I think therefore I am." This in the capitalistic world is now "I consume therefore I am" Consumption and ownership become our identity not the true us that is before the thinking and the ownership.

I embrace the opposite, " I am therefore I think."

It's plastic welfare really. Sometimes your car breaks down and since you don't have any savings, you have to reach for the credit card. There's no other way to get money extremely quickly.

A bank loan is a long involved process. Credit cards are plastic do-it-yourself loan sharks.

Jubal, I think you nailed it with the "I consume therefore I am" theory. It's partially conditioning with advertising and keeping up with what's "in" as identity, and partially an instant gratification mind set. At least for the most part for those who end up over their heads in debt. There are exceptions though when people have true emergencies and no choice. Even now with wages stagnant and the price of oil going up, even a trip to the grocery store can be eye opening. This is a good time to have this conversation though - with the state our economy is in many people I know have seen the light and are focused on cutting expenses to the minimum and paying off as much debt as they can. It's definitely a trap.

I don't understand how most of us can survive without credit. It is so sad.

Personally, I hate the system of credit that we issue out in both our money and plastic versions. Both are without value until you spend it, and plastic places you further in debt the more you use it. Money is no better, since it's depreciating in value everyday. The Federal Reserve attempts to patch the massively broken system through stimulus packages and tax breaks, but those do little if anything to stop the bleeding of America's economy.

What's worse is that not only is the Federal Reserve aware of this problem, the are the cause of it. Letting private banks control the economy is complete stupidity, let alone one of the reasons why the founding fathers left England for America. It allows for internal corruption of our democratic system by those who control our finances and segregation based on wealth, Eugenics, Imperialism, Racism, and Social Darwinism.

The current system of legal tender and credit should be undone in favor of a system controlled by a neutral government entity, and the wealth of the American people should be snatched from the grasp of corrupt bankers and redistributed to the those who rightfully deserve it.

Several have raised personal responsibility. But, where is the responsiblity of the corporations that targeted portions of the least educated, least financially skilled segments of our population. Additionally, where is the corporate responsiblity, that when they realized that they (many credit institutions) had put too much of their worth at risk though such practices, lobbied and courted Congress to change the law.

intersting footage!! Annoying robot voice

i deal with credit everyday....its funny how stupid people are with their credit. i used to train finance people....and i have no sympathy for people that jack up their credit...except those with emergencies.

then complain why they gotta pay more for being stupid! besides its easy to VIC the system, if you know how to do it....WHICH I DO!!!!!!!

Good point cybexg...plenty of blame to go around.

Majik. Please tell us how to game the system. I know I could use some tips.

send me a pm and tell me what you want to know specifically

We don't need to renounce money. It can be a very helpful tool for commerce. What if your boss only paid you with chickens? Could you buy a plane ticket with chickens? We should realize the delusion of materialism and consume responsibly, myself included.

you might be able to at ATA!!

Money is not a horrible idea. The way it is done in America is a horrible idea, because it puts the bulk of the wealth in the hands of an extremely small percentage of people.

In addition, some of those people control the distribution of the money. Without any checks and balances or regulations to curb abuse of it, they pretty much regulate themselves and are allowed them to do whatever they want with the money.

And the taxes we pay? That's us paying the government to pay back the private banks for the money they borrowed from them.

benjaminwinters. I like the idea of consuming responsibly. It's helps put spending in a different light. What does responsibly mean to you? I imagine it means different things to different people. Are there ways we help each other consume responsibly (however we define it). And what about the joy of spending? Is that a concept we've moved past (or should move past) or is there a place for that joy?

I am 20, and I do not own a credit card. I try to spend less than $25 per week, not counting essentials such as food, rent, etc. However, I have been known to allow myself a couple hundred dollars a few times a year to spend on clothes. I also have started using cash more than I use my debit card, because I find it easier to keep track of my spending that way. Sometimes I go beyond my budget, this week I bought a hardcover book I'd been wanting, but generally I stay within my budget. Even when I feel I need something, like new underwear, I still check myself and take a lot of time to decide if it is something I truly need.

I think the largest problem for many Americans is that they cannot separate want from need. This society forces consumerism upon us constantly, it is so hard to break yourself away from the desires that the dominant ideology has placed within you. I have found that the only way I can stay sane and save money, is to fully accept what I have. It has been a long road to get to this point, but I think it is very important to understand why you strongly desire things, and work to accept what you have and forget about what you want.

Well said lastwaysleft. Thanks for adding to this thread.

The real issue in USA is not the credit but the credit given to people that can't pay, this doesn't works for banks, they want people who can pay, they need the cash flow, not actives. So, why this happened?

A try to give the same chances to anyone, even when conditions are adverse. Basically credits like the subprimes that created bubbles in the economy.