What the Heezee?! Clinton says she leads in popular vote

Well, Hillogical math is proof of the dumbing down of America. She needs that math to justify more H1B Visas and NAFTA.

Can't get any dumber than some did almost 8 and then again 4 years ago.

Florida should count - both names were on the ballot. The democratic party can cry all they want to, cry all they want to...You would cry to if it happended to you.

Michigan is a coin flip - if you want to call that "fair".
Come on, admit it - It was either dumb of Obama to remove his name from the ballot, or it was smart of Hillary to keep hers on the ballot.

But when you look at the process overall, it seems to me that the Obama camp keeps calling on an ideal of "fairness" that is not real world (kind of like the 60's.) The Michigan case is an example of Obama blinking before Clinton did.

For God sake, who ever wins this game, I hope our president doesn't blink in the eyes of N. Korea, Iran, or Pakistan. Thier concept of reality and even fairness is not the same as ours.

Florida and Michigan need to be included. Why can't someone open a website to take donations to fund new elections in these 2 states? If we want to be a truly democratic party we cannot exclude the people of those states merely because party leaders in those states broke party rules. Not including Michigan and Florida would represent a breakdown in our democratic process.

Ha, I think our collective sense of reality and fairness is just as flawed, my friend. At the very least, lets hope we can leave the high school antics at home and talk it out like sane and rational grown people. Well... we can always hope anyway...

Mrs. Clinton, do you actually believe any of the ridiculous rhetoric you spew or do you just HOPE we do?

Michigan and Florida made their beds and now they have to lie in them. I'm a Hillary supporter, but that's just the way it is. The parties in those states disenfranchised their own voters; well, tough. To have a do over would be ridiculous. This ain't Little League.

eldamon - can't say you just added anything constructive to the conversation.
Obama/Feingold? lol

Think I'll just wait until the most popular votes are tallied. It's like a bad high school movie and the migraines are killing me.

SJDelaney,
I don't know, I think it's a legitimate question - once you get passed the sarcasm of course. Think about it for a sec, does she really think people are that stupid? I concede people aren't always as bright as they could or should be but who is going to fall for more creative math and convenient rule changes?

Although I have to say Obama/Feingold is better then Clinton/Lieberman '-)

All the "Sound and Fury" now will just end up being decided at the convention since it won't be able to with just the primaries the way they are.

It's not like it hasn't happened before, and I thought that's what the conventions were for.

eldamon - by the publicity pics I'd swear it was McCain/Leibermann :) As an independent now I guess he gets to swing both ways.

Michigan should not be counted because Obama's name was not on the ballots. In Florida, it was not the local party that disenfranchised the voters, but the Republican governor and legislature that moved the primary dates up despite vehement protests from local democratic leaders.

Yes, true that the DNC gave the local party the opportunity to come up with an alternative plan, but they weren't going to fund it. The DNC expected the local party to spend $10 million of their own money (and risk bankruptcy) to hold a separate election! Even the RNC was sane enough to sanction the changes in primary dates by taking away half of their delegates notwithstanding the doing of their own party leaders.

Thus, Florida must be counted not because the local party broke the rules, but because they had no choice and the DNC failed to provide the leadership to include FL voters. All candidate names were on the ballots and NONE campaigned. Still, 1.8 million democrats went to the polls - their voices, aspirations, and votes cannot be denied and discounted. Otherwise, we risk losing FL again.

Oh yeah, I definitely agree it looks like McCain/Leibermann. Ol' Joe got his lil feelings hurt and forgot where he came from. The only reason he gets any respect at all is if he had the nads to go all the way over it would tip the balance in the Senate and take away all the committee chairs and subpoena powers.

Has either Fl or Mi initiated the recall proceedure or impeachment proceedings against their respective governers and legislative leaders that sold their votes down the river?

Didn't think so. When the voters get that ball rolling they will be entitled to a revote or to have the rules changed in the middle of the game.

FL's Gov. is actually Republican as is most of the state so they aren't too motivated to do anything but what they are doing.

Rules are not black and white and meant to evolve and in certain excruciating cases, bent to serve the interest of the public, in this case, millions of disenfranchised voters.

MI democrats brought this to themselves and as a result, their delegates should not be seated but FL is a different case altogether. Your recall and impeachment preceedings are completely unrealistic. Who will fund the $$ millions needed? Also how can you impeach a Republican governor when you have no majorities in both state houses?

Too bad Iraq doesn't have delegates. Or China.

I'm surprised China is even allowing us to have elections. Or OPEC.

We should thank them for being so merciful and allowing us to believe they don't own us lock, stock and oil barrel.

Remember when the US was the sole superpower?

sigh.

Note to future Presidents. Don't base the entire economy on cheap oil from OPEC and don't take out $1 trillion in payday loans from China.

Just think what the donations to each says about both Hillary and Obama's campaigns.

Obama's money is from people who support him and not Hillary or McCain.

Okay...then how do you deal with the five caucus only states (four of which Obama won) which don't contribute to the popular vote at all. Yet another reason why this whole conversation is ridiculous. Popular vote does not count. It all about the delegates. It may not be a great system, but it's the one we got. You'd think a candidate would take that into account when planning their campaign...seems like Obama did. What does it say about Clinton as a potential chief executive that she didn't? And that now she's trying to change the rules?

I live in Michigan and I know that there is absolutely no way to make a 'do-over' primary that would be fair. It's ironic and pathetic that Michigan would have had more of a say if they hadn't moved their primary up in the first place.

" It's ironic and pathetic that Michigan would have had more of a say if they hadn't moved their primary up in the first place."

Ironic yes, pathetic no. If this primary season serves as an example to keep renegade states on the reservation, then Michigan's misguided attempt at relevance will have served the greater good.

Great point seeker. And to add to that, lets keep in mind another reason why Florida and Michigan moved up their primaries. MONEY. All the campaign money that they hoped would come flooding into their states by moving up the contests. The DNC and all the candidates (including Senator Clinton) were right not to let that happen. While a re-vote would be best for the voters, what kind of message would rewarding those states with all that campaign money send? Not a good one.

Seat the delegations after the nominee is decided. It's what Clinton planned all along, only she expected to be in a slightly different position.

I wouldn't want a delusional president, rules are rules hilster, although, you don't know that, only those silly voters do!

Hillary Clinton should go down in history next to names like," Lizzy Borden and Sybil", because she's a cross breed between the both of them.

Well, Michgan and Florida will then go to the Republicans in November since the Democratic party doesn't want to count their votes. And to be honest, I don't give a damn about their deadlines or rules. Their entire primary system needs to be overhauled especially regarding caucuses. And it is so ironic... They start the primary process two years before the election and then penalize a state for holding a primary too early? It's all ludicrous and proves that party politics is a detriment to Democracy. People who voted should have their votes counted regardless of who they voted for. Democrats then can no longer claim to care about counting every vote. And don't think the Republicans won't try to use that to their advantage to get those votes come November.

As a FL voter, I would feel disenfranchised if they did count the vote...after they said they wouldn't. What ever happened to honesty and integrity..? If someone is going to bend the rules in order just to win the nomination, what does that say about what they'd be like as our country's leader..? Sounds kind of like what we've got now...another blatant betrayer...who doesn't give a rat's a## what the majority thinks or wants, but only knows how to cater to the elite base...

What are we in this for..? Why are we having an election..? Why don't we just let Bush appoint McCush and watch our country go further down the perverbial tube...you had all better be aware the spin doctors are gearing down and loading up for big game.

This may prove to be the biggest debacle yet...

Hillary somehow doesn't understand that the Michigan vote doesn't count for anything --- even though she herself said just that before she started to lose to Obama.

Look, it's pretty darn ridiculous to assume that the Chair of either National Party has just as much authority as a Governor and a State Legislature...

Unless of course there was a Constitutional Convention that I'm not aware of...

Howard Dean has no rightful authority here.

One person, one vote remember?

If both Michigan & Florida delegations are not seated in the way the voters of each state elected them, someone is going to pay dearly for that mistake because as a party we are just as bad as the Republicans who triangulated from November into December of 2000 and steered the decision Not to the United States Congress but to the Supreme Court that ruled the recount could not continue.

More than likely, voters in both states will decide NOT to vote for the democratic nominee and may ensure a McCain victory.

And Obama supporters can disagree with me all they want..However, if you were taking a course in College and you had the same question your answer would be marked wrong.

So...the caucuses shouldn't count but the Michigan and Florida should. Um...okay. That makes sense.

I do agree that the system if flawed, and there should be an overhaul, just not in the middle of an election cycle. The rules are the rules. Everybody knew them and everybody agreed to them.

Again, Florida and Michigan's delegates will be seated AFTER a nominee is decided on. The race will continue until Clinton is mathematically eliminated, the super delegates push Obama over the top or she drops out of the race. THEN Obama will concede to seating the Michigan and Florida delegates as they stand. The states who violated the rules are not rewarded with the cash cow of an end of primary re-vote and the votes are still counted, thus avoided any disenfranchisement. It was the plan all along, only most people thought Clinton would be the one standing at the end.

Of course if I'm wrong and the super delegates over turn the will of the people and hand the nomination to Clinton, the same thing happens. She will seat the delegates. Of course then you have a much larger case of voter disenfranchisement to deal with.

The only way this doomsday talk comes true is if enough super delegates stay uncommitted all the way to the convention allowing Clinton to carry this into the convention. Possible, but highly unlikely because one of the reasons for the super delegate system in the first place was to prevent just such a scenario.

I think all this "battling" needs to stop. Why does this have to be a fight, especially in the eyes of mass media. If this keeps up, these two candidates are going to be so bloodied and bruised, and McCain is just gonna stroll to the white house. They need to keep their eyes on the prize and realize that keeping up with this mudslinging tradition is nowhere near the kind of "CHANGE" we need.

"Look, it's pretty darn ridiculous to assume that the Chair of either National Party has just as much authority as a Governor and a State Legislature...

Unless of course there was a Constitutional Convention that I'm not aware of... "

Patrick, the democratic party is a private organization and is not bound by governmental election rules (in picking it's nominee). The supreme court has ruled on this. They could declare that no votes would be counted from states ending in the letter "A" if they wanted to. It would be an odd move...granted, but completely within their rights.

i'mgonna do to myself what Oedipus did to himself; I finally understand.

i'm gonna gouge out my eyes and wander as a political exile.

done.

This is what's wrong with our country at this moment. Being a man or woman of your "word " and following the rules. Period!! Everyone knew on the Super Tuesday election in Florida and Michigan the media were calling the two primaries "beauty contests" remember because they counted for nothing. And as Rage, krag , and seeker have pointed out is that Hillary is breaking the rules that were set that she herself signed up for. People need to be more truthful and that is her problem lying and cheating.!!!

I try to like Hill-Rod, but she keeps flat out lying. We usually have to wait until after January 20th to find out that the President is a liar. Thanks for saving us the embarrassment of another Lying Liar.

Here is my take, and it's the only one that counts...lol j/k

The citizens of Mi and Fl need to rise up. Us citizens just sit back and take what is dished out too us anymore. Our own government that WE finance just sits and tramples us to dirt and we watch with stupid looks on our faces. What happen to heated town hall meetings, protesting the state capital buildings, marching for rights and needs. We are all so scared to speak anymore that we have lost our respect as a nation. In the eyes of other nations we are robots. In places like France, they hit the streets as a nation for things as simple as work conditions. And here we are having our right to vote stripped away.

When did we become so weak and scared to speak?