What is Justice?

Justice, a Parisian dance production duo comprised of Gaspard Augé and Xavier de Rosnay

right on sidcarr!! lol

Justice. Obama winning the presidency would be justice for every black person in America, and for every bigot in America too.

to quote Richard Pryor... Justice is, just us.

“Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone that which is his due.”
- Unknown

"Justice is a form of morality that stop us from being animals, but also stops us turning into a baby from a lion, or something."

Nietzsche.

it may be more useful for some to think also of what justice is clearly not. It is not exculpation, nor forgiveness, nor any pardon for honest guilt or realization of error.

but perhaps more importantly, justice is equally a measure of one's own capacity for compassion and common decency as well.

“Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it shall be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” Matthew [7:1-5]

also relevant, by today's standards, for example, torture itself, for some, can be colored to be "justice" and "true" recompense. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." and many wars are carried on in this light of this sadistic "reasoning;" and justice can be little more than a fancied word for a continued, endless quest for revenge

Echoz, very well put. I loved the quote from the bible about judgment.

Sometimes Justice is about punishment, and sometimes Justice is about mercy. That is why the figure of Justice is blindfolded and holding a scale. Justice is about equilibrium, as Cosmo Plavix was talking about.

Generally there are two kinds of Justice as Echoz pointed out.

There is Retributive Justice which has its roots in a military theory called lex talionis, literally law of retaliation.

The other is Distributive Justice which has its roots in equality and meritocracy; as in your "getting your just desserts", this is either punishment or mercy depending on merit and other factors.

The the total lack of justice can be found in Oppressive law which is the product of totalitarianism either political or religious; these laws seek to annihilate the "other" those who do not fully comply with the narrow interpretation of the law.

And finally there is such a thing as Divine Justice that has its roots in egalitarian ideals, harmony, virtue, truth, or even ethics. This is a more philosophical approach to justice.

We covered these things in some of my college classes, but I am sure you can find many sources over the internet or at he library for more information on these.

Best of luck with the school project.

Justice is whatever a culture or society views/thinks is "the right thing to do". Justice is subjective depending on the person.

Need more?

Justice is fairness, legally speaking.

Justice is NOT "whatever a society views/thinks is 'the right thing to do'"

Out forefathers got it right in the Declaration of Independence: that mankind is endowed by his creator with inherent and inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

It's not an accident that the United States, despite the manipulations of an immoral elite this country grew up out of nowhere and became the greatest in the world (past tense). It is this concept and the natural human expression which springs from it that propelled America to greatness, period!

To have justice, you must have a moral compass to inform decisions and point the way. Inherent and inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - applied to all is a pretty darn good one. It means you are free to do what you please so long as you don't interfere with or deprive another's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

What is justice? The protection of these rights and the swift restoration of them should they be deprived.

Justice is the absence of arrogance to impose ones beliefs (misbelief actually) on others (willful ignorance).

The justice system in the United States, particularly Los Angeles is a corrupted mess serving only to oppress people and serve the wicked that pull it's strings. Perjury is acceptable, even rewarded in the Los Angeles courtroom if it serves it's master. Public servants? They can do no wrong - anything goes.

Justice is the desire to alleviate or remove the suffering of others, particularly those who have not done anything to deserve their current condition or their impending harm.

Some recent examples of injustice are:
- Detaining someone indefinitely without giving them a trial to prove their innocence or guilt. The detainees were selected simply based on their nationality and the color of their skin.

- Moving a nuclear power plant to a Native American community in New Mexico. This community has less money and political clout to fight the highly toxic waste dump being moved onto their land. The government is taking advantage of their relative inability to defend themselves from harm.

- The way the fundamentalist mormon church isolates and indoctrinates young girls and women. They were taught from birth that obedience without questioning is the highest virtue they can obtain. And that being a wife and mother is the only thing they should look forward to. This leaves them open to abuses such as being forced to marry men 3 times their age or outright rape. Forced to bear children while they are still children themselves. The culture does not allow retribution for these women. If they are merely unsatisfied with their lot in life, they are often sent off to mental institutions and kept locked up indefinitely. If they attempt an escape, the community policemen return them to their husbands and do not interfere with the punishments they will receive afterwards.

If you have the desire to relieve or eliminate any of the horrid conditions heaped on your fellow human beings as mentioned above, you have found justice.

I'm a huge believer in Karma, or what goes around , yada, yada - I don't worry too much about people dealing out justice on other people. I know that when someone does something to me that seems mean or evil, they will pay somewhere down the line. This way I'm much less stressed and can focus on 'my' life and let them get what's coming to them - eventually.

justice is the impeachment and imprisonment of dick and george.

justice is fairness for crime vs punishment.

Justice was my favorite "American Gladiator"....

@Binarysunset... [love the icon, btw!]... Justice is whatever a culture or society views/thinks is "the right thing to do". Justice is subjective depending on the person. , as you put it, was pretty much what i was going to post. i agree with you completely, despite the rants and slants of everyone else...

"Justice" isn't any more god-given [or Flying Spaghetti Monster-given] than anything else in the world, including "inalienable rights."

when a culture or society or civilization, or whatever you want to all it, achieves culture and communication, at some time, they find it desirable to codify "behavior" and try to put limits on behavior that they don't like or even approve of. so laws are made.

them that don't follow the laws are punished by the tribe. them that follow the laws are rewarded by the tribe.

and that, again, is for both good AND bad deeds.

the reward or punishment is referred to as "their just desserts".... what they deserve as punishment or reward for their actions.

if a culture or group or whatever gets pissed at someone for that person's actions, they offer "justice" as retaliation and for control and discouragement for others to follow that route.

conversely for rewards.

bringing in all of the anecdotal remarks and stories and "evidence" as above are just clarifying examples of what i just said.

usually, in the US culture today, "bringing someone to justice" means the punishment side for having broken the cultural or social norms.

for those wielding or "inflicting" justice today, that can range from capital punishment for "capital crimes as the culure defines them" to the idea of killing doctors who perform abortions for people who willingly go to those doctors.

the people and culture and groups create the definitions and then enforce them.

that's "justice," everywhere. consider the "justice" as practiced by fundamentalist and radical muslims, for example.

Justice? In some cases invoves judgement, but mostly i think that karma dictates true justice...just us is correct,in that sense.

"Justice is NOT "whatever a society views/thinks is 'the right thing to do'"

Out forefathers got it right in the Declaration of Independence: that mankind is endowed by his creator with inherent and inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. "

Well said, Voyager! Justice is the effort to fight for and preserve every human being's right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. In short - dignity.

@phoenix_fire999......

that's a good one... i define justice as what a culture defines as justice and you tell me i'm wrong because the folks OF OUR CULTURE who preceded us defined justice in the Declaration of Independence, AND you and they reference a CREATOR who's never been seen, heard or otherwise directly experienced other than by people who claim to have talked to him/her/it..... all very circular, tautological and anything else one could describe it as....

if that was your idea of logic, _I AM_ THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!!!!!! WORSHIP ME, _DONATE TO ME_....

silly rabbits... don't even know you're rabbits any more...

I think you're completely missing your rabbits. As well as the point of my last post.

Whether one believes in a creator or not is not the point. (Personally, I don't happen to believe in one.) The point is that every human being has inalienable rights: life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

These are basic things that most people can agree on, whether or not they are religious.

Your view point on justice is very multi-cultural. I appreciate that. But I don't think it is entirely correct. It has the problem of being inconsistent, for one. And more importantly, it allows for some astonishing amount of cruelty if you just happen to be born in a different culture. Take honor killing in the Middle East for example. They think it's justice to kill one's daughter for flirting or even talking to a boy who is not her relative. But are they right? Is that really justice? According to your world view, it might be, if you happened to be born in Saudi Arabia or Iran, but it's not, if you're born in Europe or the United States.

Do you see how incongruent your concept is?

plusaf - we argue again.

Here's the deal - what you describe is what we have right now in America - and if the society as you say can determine subjectively determine what is right, then you are saying you embrace and support the lying and deception of the Bush administration - that their form of immoral behavior isn't now immoral because they are being rewarded for it - right?

If a society rewards a certain behavior, it must condone it and therefore it is appropriate? not immoral?

Conversely - don't you know, duh, that if you artificially impose restriction on the natural / healthy human psychic with imperfect law and restriction there will be problems and conflict. Perhaps even a portion of the society will become dysfunctional as a result of the unnatural repression then manifest itself in a negative form / manner. Take for example the resistance put forth by the Palestinians, or civil protests, or high school and college kids going (we used to call it "going postal") on shooting sprees.

You're looking backwards - not forward. Just because it was that way yesterday, doesn't mean it can't be better or that it has to be that way tomorrow. Our future DOES NOT need to be defined by our (misperception) of the past.

Some people look to the future and say what if and some people don't see the future nor the nature of change. Dude, you are living in the past and imposing it on the future. Worse yet, you expect the rest of us to do it also - do you realize this?????????????

@VoyagerFilms and @Phoenix_fire999.....

no no no no no....... that's the opposite of what i mean. sorry if it was confusing to you....

EVERYONE has THEIR OWN view of the world, and if you were born into one of those other cultures, YES you WOULD think honor killing and all that CRAP WOULD BE "justice" and "justifiable" and all of the other s$%&*(##y excuses they use for those heinous acts!!!

but AGAIN, THEY agree AMONGST THEMSELVES, CULTURALLY steeped in that manure, that THEY ARE RIGHT and all their s$^t IS justifiable and "justice'!

i disagree, YOU both disagre, and all THREE of us, and the other thousands who log on here who DON'T have cerebral-rectal inversions would ALSO agree that ALL of those actions ARE terrible.

but they're swimming in their water and don't know they're swimming in water, because they were born in that water, breathed that water all their lives and can't see or feel they're swimming in it any more than you or i are conscious on a minute-to-minute basis that WE'RE living in an ocean of AIR.

it permeates our lives. it's ALWAYS there! we don't think about it unless someone cuts off the supply. but pretty much ONLY then!

we can toss reasons all over the place as to why "they" do what "they" do, and "they" will bounce back with what we consider really STUPID justifications for why THEY do what THEY do!

but, aristotle and his ilk notwithstanding, we all also have our own ways of interpreting the world. when we gather as communities, cities, countries or cultures OR religions, we get together and AGREE on a bunch of things........ INCLUDING which "RIGHTS" are "INALIENABLE."

neither God NOR the Flying Spaghetti Monster, [pbuh], GAVE us those things. we figured them out, agreed on them, and mete out "justice" to those who don't agree to follow those rules!

and that's all!


no, i DON'T try to make excuses for them! i hate what they believe and what they do. if you ever think i'm anywhere NEAR "on their side," visit THIS page on my site... http://www.plusaf.com/soapbox/hezbollah.htm or maybe here... http://www.plusaf.com/soapbox/fundamentalism.htm or maybe here... http://www.plusaf.com/soapbox/outrage.htm .....

i hate their beliefs, and if they start to take over the USA, i'm going to be one of the first in line to pack some heat on my person, in my home and car, and defend my rights to NOT believe what they DEMAND that i believe and not act the way they DEMAND i act.

it's one of the reasons http://www.americancongressfortruth.org/ is an organization i support, and i think that what they have to say should scare the living daylights out of most Americans. [not to mention the British, who are way down the tubes already on that one...]

i AM looking towards the future, and working towards a future where THOSE kinds of "justice" don't exist. i believe ours IS better. but they'd disagree. that's what causes most wars.

ok, make more sense now??
i hope so. thanks for the replies for clarification.

plusaf-

then what's your opinion on the death penalty?
just curious.

oh, and that "americancongressfortruth" website is SO HATEFUL and SUCH a fear tactic. that's all we need, more hateful warmongers "declaring" WAR against a huge world religion.

SO MISGUIDED.

There is no muslim boogieman, but there is a boogieman in the whitehouse...several actually...

I don't fear them one bit though.
I don't fear anyone actually.

One world, one people.

PEACE

thank you all for your time and effort!! :D

@jade_azul16: you're very welcome. i found it to be a great exercise in checking my thinking.

@onechance: [1] re: American Congres for Truth: i certainly hope you're right, but the evidence isn't in your favor, imnsho....
see, for instance: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=patcondell&a...

and

http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=dispatches+u...

watch as many of the six parts as you can stomach.
figure out if you can find a way to deny that there's ANY truth to ANY of the things the LEADERS say about other religions, women, and so on...


@onechance: [2] : re: capital punishment: i'm completely opposed to capital punishment.

i believe that it's not a deterrent. there are data to back that up. my belief is that only "sane" people are deterred from crimes by the threat of capture and punishment, and that people who commit heinous crimes are unbalanced in some way or ways, and that, whether it's a crime of the moment or crime of passion or even fully premeditated, they're not considering ANY punishment to be capable of inducing ANY kind of decision to not commit the crime.

i believe that, with the statistical probability that some convicted of and sentenced to capital punishment are or may later to be found innocent. if this is the case, ALL of the participants: lawyers, jurists, etc., are then and thus guilty of a capital crime and should, under those self-same rules, suffer the same punishment. there ain't no going back and saying "my bad, we goofed, we're sorry." same crime = same punishment. no alternatives.

some are falsely convicted. there can not / should not be any punishment which is irrevocable, such as capital punishment.

i belive that capital punishment is an artifact of the lower-level functioning of the human brain and spirit, and not an indicator of a sufficiently mature species or civilization. it's an "eye for an eye" reaction to any kind of extremely horrible crime, and, as the saying goes, just ends up with a bunch of blind people.

evidence shows that it's more expensive than life in prison without parole. with the appeals, judicial and other governmental expenses, we could save a lot of tax money by going for life without parole. if a convicted person is later exonerated, they should be paid recompense for their lost time-of-life-freedom.

if the convicted criminal decided they have the "right" to take someone else's life, for example, ending THEIRS brings us all down to their level.

and, no, they should not be subject to a lifetime of color tv, cable news and 24-hour nautilus workout spas. adequate nutrition, adequate exercise and health care is enough. maybe newspapers, so they can see what they're missing [and keep up with the outside world, if they're later proven innocent...]

i could probably go on, but that's probably more than you wanted as an answer, eh? "opposed." is the one-word synopsis.

more questions?

thank you for asking.

plusaf - I haven't had time yet to go back and re-read, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yoyagerfilms, I absolutely love what your wrote, so eloquently put. Thank you!!

ok, it's in bad taste and definitely not PC, but there are some things i can't resist... and sharing this with all y'all is one of them....

from a Colorado friend of mine....



Three strangers strike up a conversation in the airport passenger lounge in Bozeman, Montana , while awaiting their respective flights.

One is an American Indian passing through from Lame Deer. Another is a Cowboy on his way to Billings for a livestock show & the third passenger is a fundamentalist Arab student, newly arrived at Montana State University from the Middle East.

Their discussion drifts to their diverse cultures. Soon, the two Westerners learn that the Arab is a devout, radical Muslim and the conversation falls into an uneasy lull.

The cowboy leans back in his chair, crosses his boots on a magazine table and tips his big sweat-stained hat forward over his face.

The wind outside is blowing tumbleweeds around, and the old windsock is flapping; but still no plane comes.

Finally, the American Indian clears his throat and softly he speaks, 'At one time here, my people were many, but sadly, now we are few.'

The Muslim student raises an eyebrow and leans forward, 'Once my people were few,' he sneers, 'and now we are many. Why do you suppose that is?'

The Montana cowboy shifts his toothpick to one side of his mouth and from the darkness beneath his Stetson says in a smooth drawl...'That's 'cause we ain't played Cowboys and Muslims yet...but I DO believe it's a-comin'.


i hope it isn't, just as you might hope it isn't, too, but that's not where i'm betting.

Hahahaha.
Man! That's a good one.
It's hard to even come up with where to begin.
What is justice?!?!? Exactly!!
(just initial thoughts of course)
First of all, of course every incident of an injustice is different. Yet, like everything else that's different, it's all the same, at the same time.
Being unique and abstract, it would depend on what the offended party feels would be just or what some designated entity would feel is justice for any particular incident. In other words, it would either be a personal decision or an acceptable decision made by the entity given the authority to make that decision.
And of course, those decisions can vary to an extreme degree, and may even seem very inappropriate to someone completely removed from any particular decision.
In a "free" environment as ours (theoretically), it basically becomes the "will of the people" to decide. But again, every case would be different in many ways and specifics. And certainly, every possible scenario has not been decided or agreed upon beforehand, which may lead to "agreed" upon justice, but which could easily become injustice due to heightened sensitivities or expediency of a decision. Think,
hanging a cattle rustler in the wild west. Those ranchers may have felt sincerely that they achieved justice, but does stealing equal a man's life???
It really does become a matter of your point of view in the matter. I imagine the person on the less attractive end of "justice" wouldn't feel the same as those on the better end.
I also guess it's just like everything else - "He who has the gold, rules" and ultimately decides what justice is. Which leads to an axiom of life - it's best to be very good life long friends of someone like the sheriff or the DA.
And then there's my philosophy in life. Always be MORE than fair or empathetic in life and trust that it will come back to you, ultimately, in the same manner. Take what comes your way, not sheepishly for sure, but ultimately. Then trust that if you were slighted, at some point in time, it will be made up to you, thereby achieving final and ultimate justice.
For, only God, or the universe, or whatever you call it, keeps immaculate and absolute accurate track of ALL things and doles out supreme justice at some point in time, so, there's no need to overly concern yourself with trying to get too close to "justice".
Sometimes things may happen that appear to be a blatant injustice, when in fact, it may just be a final justice for some incident from some prior time that was never fairly settled.
So, always be very careful when demanding justice. If you give too much of it, the excess may come back to you when you least expect or want or need it.

Love and Peace, ObiaMan

Congratulations to several of you responders in this thread. I'm very happy for ya'll. I read and enjoyed some excellent viewpoints. Wouldn't it be wonderful if more people thought that way? Now that would be justice!!!! Dare to dream.

Wow, I started a riot! ;)

@ObiaMan.... just where does the universe keep those records? Oracle database? rock layers on Alpha Centauri 4?

@Binarysunset..... it was a treat and a pleasure... so, let us know how you did on the homework, ok? :))))

I think "justice" should be defined by another word, "equilibrium".

Wheras "American Justice" today is set by a plethora of laws that deal solely in fact, circumstance at the time of the alleged crime, and evidence (to support or refute the allegations), I believe justice is a little more complicated than just black and white or right and wrong.

True justice I believe would weigh all aspects of the problem in order to comeup with an equation in which all factors are considered and used to determine a "just" outcome.

Balance is hard to achieve and I don't think our current idea of "justice" does the word "equilibirum" justice.

Plusaf:

it was jade_azul16's homework & posting. (Which i DO hope we were able to help him/her out)

my "Justice is whatever a culture or society views/thinks is "the right thing to do". Justice is subjective depending on the person." comment spiced things up a bit.