Past vs. Future
- added May 1, 2008
- 16 responses
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- twodee
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- The Long Now Foundation (4)
- Niall Ferguson (1)
- Stewart Brand (1)
- Historian (1)
- Peter Schwartz (1)
This is a brief review by Stewart Brand of a talk given at The Long Nor Foundation. These talks are available podcasts on the Long Now website. Many great topics!
In what turned out to be a riveting evening, historian Niall Ferguson and futurist Peter Schwartz fire-hosed each other with enough ideas, frames of reference, ripostes, and eloquences to lead to a clear conceptual divergence. At the same time, the two were discovering, live in front of an audience, new ways they might work together on future projects.
Ferguson began by pointing out that while we face many futures, there is only one past, and its residents outnumber us— only 6 percent of all humans are now alive. Historians, he said, “commune with the dead. We re-enact their thoughts, in their context and ours.”
Historians look for rough regularities, such as he found in his analysis of the wars and hatred played out in the 20th Century. In his book, WAR OF THE WORLD, he describes how the combination of economic volatility, ethnic conflict, and failing empire always led to spirals of lethal violence. The advance of science and technology has not eliminated the possibility of violence but may have made it more powerful than ever. The three causes are still in play. “Our job is to keep them from coinciding again.”
Ferguson ended with a critique of Schwartz’s book on scenario planning, THE ART OF THE LONG VIEW, which he thought showed signs of “heuristic bias.” When Schwartz asked Ferguson to expand on that idea, Ferguson pointed out there was a whole chapter in the book about “The Global Teenager,” which seemed spurious. It merely reflected Schwartz’s personal experience: “You were a teenager when teenagers mattered. ”
Historians also have heuristic biases, Ferguson added, such as their expectation that “great events should have great causes.” Historians have much to learn from complexity theory and evolution, he said. His own work with “counter-factual history” helps expose critical moments in history and provides a way to “think about what didn’t happen.” The counter-factual technique is an application of scenario thinking to the past.
In Schwartz’s opening remarks, he said that his plans to write a book titled THE CASE FOR OPTIMISM were derailed by reading Ferguson’s WAR OF THE WORLD. He’s been grappling with the issues Ferguson raised for 18 months. “You do alternative pasts, I do alternative futures. Where historians commune with the dead, futurists have imaginary friends.”
Schwartz characterized Ferguson’s view of history as basically down, with an upside possibility, whereas his own view was of history as basically up, with always the possibility of getting things wrong. For Schwartz, the second half of the 20th Century showed an upside momentum, with a fraction of the violent deaths—5% of humans killed violently in the first half, 0.2 % in the second half. The Cold War ended quietly. Women were liberated. China took off. Prosperity accelerated. Everything from Wikipedia to cellphones empowered the grassroots.
In response, Ferguson noted Schwartz’s “faith in technology” and proposed it reflected his training as an engineer. “Aren’t you like the pre-1914 people who said that war was impossible because of all the new technology and commerce?” Schwartz agreed that the parallel is worrying.
Ferguson said, “I think our difference is that I’m a pessimist and you’re an optimist. You’re Pangloss and I’m Cassandra.” Schwartz noted that since his parents were in slave-labor camps in World War II, and he was born in a displaced-person camp after the war, “It would be churlish not to be an optimist.” Ferguson said, “That would make me skeptical about technology. The world leader in science and technology in 1940 was Nazi Germany.”
-Stewart Brand
In what turned out to be a riveting evening, historian Niall Ferguson and futurist Peter Schwartz fire-hosed each other with enough ideas, frames of reference, ripostes, and eloquences to lead to a clear conceptual divergence. At the same time, the two were discovering, live in front of an audience, new ways they might work together on future projects.
Ferguson began by pointing out that while we face many futures, there is only one past, and its residents outnumber us— only 6 percent of all humans are now alive. Historians, he said, “commune with the dead. We re-enact their thoughts, in their context and ours.”
Historians look for rough regularities, such as he found in his analysis of the wars and hatred played out in the 20th Century. In his book, WAR OF THE WORLD, he describes how the combination of economic volatility, ethnic conflict, and failing empire always led to spirals of lethal violence. The advance of science and technology has not eliminated the possibility of violence but may have made it more powerful than ever. The three causes are still in play. “Our job is to keep them from coinciding again.”
Ferguson ended with a critique of Schwartz’s book on scenario planning, THE ART OF THE LONG VIEW, which he thought showed signs of “heuristic bias.” When Schwartz asked Ferguson to expand on that idea, Ferguson pointed out there was a whole chapter in the book about “The Global Teenager,” which seemed spurious. It merely reflected Schwartz’s personal experience: “You were a teenager when teenagers mattered. ”
Historians also have heuristic biases, Ferguson added, such as their expectation that “great events should have great causes.” Historians have much to learn from complexity theory and evolution, he said. His own work with “counter-factual history” helps expose critical moments in history and provides a way to “think about what didn’t happen.” The counter-factual technique is an application of scenario thinking to the past.
In Schwartz’s opening remarks, he said that his plans to write a book titled THE CASE FOR OPTIMISM were derailed by reading Ferguson’s WAR OF THE WORLD. He’s been grappling with the issues Ferguson raised for 18 months. “You do alternative pasts, I do alternative futures. Where historians commune with the dead, futurists have imaginary friends.”
Schwartz characterized Ferguson’s view of history as basically down, with an upside possibility, whereas his own view was of history as basically up, with always the possibility of getting things wrong. For Schwartz, the second half of the 20th Century showed an upside momentum, with a fraction of the violent deaths—5% of humans killed violently in the first half, 0.2 % in the second half. The Cold War ended quietly. Women were liberated. China took off. Prosperity accelerated. Everything from Wikipedia to cellphones empowered the grassroots.
In response, Ferguson noted Schwartz’s “faith in technology” and proposed it reflected his training as an engineer. “Aren’t you like the pre-1914 people who said that war was impossible because of all the new technology and commerce?” Schwartz agreed that the parallel is worrying.
Ferguson said, “I think our difference is that I’m a pessimist and you’re an optimist. You’re Pangloss and I’m Cassandra.” Schwartz noted that since his parents were in slave-labor camps in World War II, and he was born in a displaced-person camp after the war, “It would be churlish not to be an optimist.” Ferguson said, “That would make me skeptical about technology. The world leader in science and technology in 1940 was Nazi Germany.”
-Stewart Brand
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Sounds like a fascinating debate! we need more of this kind of thing.
i'm always interested in the could haves and cold bes of past and future. I think we have alot to learn not just from the past that happened but also the past that could have happened and apply that to our present and future.-
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- SamuraiDave
- 2 months ago
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Uh, could you try that again in English, Pigmy? And why did you give it a negative vote?
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- SamuraiDave
- 2 months ago
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What an amazing contrast of ideas that serves to stimulate our search for the connectivity we seek and find in life and to explore the relevance of its meaning.
We are only beginning to understand the meaning, depth and ability to communicate with both our known and unknown past and present spiritual connections.
Spirituality has an essence of which we are only barely aware. Much room for growth exists in that realm.
Thanks, Twodee.-
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- Inofuilwell
- 2 months ago
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I guess thinking about the past and the future can do that to a person. Maybe it is best to live in the present.
I still find it fascinating to listen and read about how people think into the past and the future. This is the moment we are in right now. Time is part of our moment. To ignore time would be like pretending our bodies do not bleed. It would be silly to ignore time until we leave this body into a timeless place.
ramble on.
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living in the present without knowing the past is like suffering from amnesia.
I always liked this saying -
"How do you know where you're going if you don't know where you've been?"-
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- SamuraiDave
- 2 months ago
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Hey guys,
Open debate and discourse is totally encouraged here, but please remember to keep discussions from turning into personal attacks on Current.
Thanks,
Gabriel
Online Community Team -
Ditto Gabriel,
Let's keep the temperature down here, folk.
Best,
Rowan // Online UK-
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- Mr_Costello
- 2 months ago
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good ideas-perspectives-ideas
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it is always an interesting debate with optimistic and pessimistic in the same sentences. -
Ocanada and Mr Costello. I must say I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I re-read this thread and can't find attacks on Current or even hot temperature. Maybe those comments got deleted before I saw them? Am I missing something?
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@twodee -- the discussion on this thread got a little heated and personal (hence, Mr_Costello's remark about temperature).
The attacks weren't on Current, per se, they were posted "on Current" and directed at someone else. They've been removed, and ocanada posted a little reminder that things need to remain civil.
Hope this helps,
Mario
Online Community Team
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@PIGMY6372 -- We've been through this, addressing you by a shortened version of your username is not a racial remark.
Thanks,
Mario
Online Community Team
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