Shanghai Diaries - May 20

part 3?

I would have thought too that it was a small offense. I wouldn't even had called it a crime. A fine and a warning for a first offense sort of thing. But then there's a whole group of Georgians in the USA that would like to make the same offense a felony. Evidently, there's a significant group of people that don't see this offense in the same light as I do.

The interesting thing is that in Georgia, the law that would make it a felony to drive without a license was meant to deal, in part, with the issue of illegal immigration. This is an interesting parallel to Abram's story - use traffic laws to deal with an issue of foreigners. Is that what we are seeing here? A method to remove foreigners?

Coupled with the problems reported regarding visas, I am dismayed if Shanghai (and the rest of China?) would seek to remove the people who give China the best face overseas - the expat population that is working very very hard to make a life in China.

I'm sorry, I have questions.

Did Abram contact a lawyer?
In Canada, for example, don't expect to be told that you have a right to see a lawyer hence I would not expect anybody to bring up the possibility to Abram.

Was Abram brought before a judge? Was it a Basic People's Courts? It might be appealable. Perhaps there is a case to sue?
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/china_law_prof_blog/fi...

Before going abroad, it is good to understand what your consulate can do for you.
http://www.voyage.gc.ca/main/about/who_what-en.asp
http://www.voyage.gc.ca/main/pubs/imprisoned_abroad-en....
Did the US consulate give Abram information about how the process worked? A list of lawyers? Anything helpful?

I think that's why so many people are upset...and, those that can afford it, leaving. This is still a new country, just out of it's borderline 'third-world' status and the foreign influence is what's helping that transformation.

When things like this (which, they were obviously making an 'example' out of him), plus the visas, plus the anti-Western sentiment, etc is what's going to make the Olympic Games...well...I'll save that thought for a future show.

Am not sure if he contacted a lawyer, I know his company had many reps fighting for him, but to no avail. As he mentions in the interview, the consulate was NOT notified for 4 days and when they showed, basically said they couldn't do anything.

He should be back home now, so I'll ask him to jump on here and answer your alls questions.

Sue? You're forgetting who makes the rules here ;)

Yep, kinda hard to do much when you're hustled to the airport. I did chat with an American on the train between HK and Beijing that had some luck with the justice system on a civil matter.

Some thoughts...
http://mutantjedi.blogspot.com/2008/05/unofficial-ambas...

Good write-up (thanks for the mention), and you're right, China is dangerously on the edge of social suicide by removing people that not only know the most, but are from very, shall we say, vocal cultures.

It all ads to my post later this week on it - if you can't figure it out already, ha ha ha.

After yesterday and today's diaries I feel that much more grateful to be in the USA.

ha - yeah, we forget sometimes that things aren't always as they were growing up.

don't get me wrong, I've been fortunate here, but, as Abram said, 'it comes with a lot of strife'.

different rules, man, different rules.

The police everywhere have made examples out of unfortunate people, even in the US. It sucks that this happened in this case. The punishment certainly doesn't fit the "crime", especially when so much worse gets no notice at all.

-

Buying a motorcycle in Shanghai knowing you don't have the proper license to ride it: 2000RMB.

Getting caught riding said bike: 7 days in jail and have to leave the country.

Answer to question at 5:43: Priceless!

Police making examples is one thing, but when it's to the 1% of the population, it cries 'singled out'! People here simply do not follow the rules, that's from the poorest farmer to the highest up in the government - that's the thing that really makes this disturbing.

2000rmb? He could be so lucky - change that to a dollar sign and you're close, ha ha.

I hope this guy learn his lesson. Just because he's an American doesn't exempt him from the law of the land. All he needed to do in the first place was go get a license and there would be no problem. Any temporary foreigner who wish to drive in America also need to apply for temporary license. If he/she is caught without a license then suspension and fine would be apply. But how is that going to prevent other foreigner from not obeying the law? If China needs to set an example to all foreigner's including Americans to obey the law of the land, then so be it! If they violate the law, then they would know the consequence of breaking the law. If you set the penalty high, then people would likely think twice before they decide to go around the law. If they do decide to go around the law, then they basically seal their fate if they get caught. In Abram case, he said he don't have a Chinese license when he knows you need one to drive in China. He took that risk and got caught so he have to face the law of the land. Stop whinning like a B*tch and face it like a man! It's a lesson for all foreigners coming for the Olympic...obey the law of the land and everything would be fine. Disobey it and you will face the consequence. It's the same thing around the world. Lucky this guy was not in Malaysia or is it Singapore? Some American dude decided to graffiti some buiding I think. and his penalty for violating the law! 15 lashes from a cane on the ass! I'll take jail time instead.

No one ever claimed he didn't break the law - but jail without contacts? Not notifying the Consulate?

What about the locals breaking the law?

Also, the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

exactly - I am constantly in a taxi where, as mentioned, the person driving doesn't match the picture with the number. 6 foreign films allowed a year, but DVD shops on every corner.

it's the double standard and still comes back to 'control', the locals finally have it over the Westerners and it's being abused - full stop.

sampam,

You are absolutely right. As a visitor in a foreign country or as a citizen in your own country, you are subject to the laws of that country. Ignorance is not an excuse. 什么的…

However, unreasonable laws and unfair or biased application of a law needs to be called out.

The story isn't about some 老外 complaining about going to jail for a traffic violation.

• The event has a context. China is pushing out a certain class of expat - F visa. The impact on the expat community, and on China, is not trivial. A year ago, Abram wouldn't even had been stopped. And if he was, a warning would have been given. Now, he spends 7 days in detention and is deported. But if Abram's story had happened a year ago, it would have felt more like an aberration. Today, it seems to be part of drive to remove certain expats from China. I'm hearing this feeling from more people than Aric.

• It helps us, who don't know how the legal system works (even in our own countries, very few of us actually know how it works.), understand the Chinese legal process. It is very different than what we see on US television. As you point out, we need to be familiar with the process. I'd like to learn more.

• I've scoured the net to learn more about the consequences of driving without a license in China and Abram could have gotten more time. But he could have also got just a warning. So, your argument about it just being the law of the land is a bit hollow. (Oh, the essay that I could write about the fallacy of the effectiveness of tough laws.) Moreover, you are wrong about being deported from the US or Canada over driving without a license. You would have to drive while suspended to get jail time.

• The story does point out the role of the consulate in these matters. Do not expect your consulate to protect you. The more serious the crime, the less likely your consulate is going to get involved. They can give you advice and help you find a lawyer. So, in Abram's case, I'm not surprised that it wasn't until later that they showed up. Maybe someone could correct me on this. Moreover, the speed of which Abram was processed would have made it very difficult for the consulate to even be of use as a source of advice.

hmm... shifting a bit.

You do realize that Abram has been deported? In your reply to me, you suggest that he "run to get a Chinese license now or if he continues driving illegally, he may get another 7 in the hole." It seems to me that your idea of a fair application of the law would be the 7 days of detention but not deportation. So, does this mean that you feel that the actual consequence of Abram's action was extreme? Deportation is very extreme - his life in China, his friends, his employment, his co-workers, his employers, his contribution to Chinese society and economy - all extinguished over not having a driver's license. Do you think he'll be able to go back to China? All over a driver's license. That is the context to keep in mind when considering Abram's story.

Abram, Stop winning like a little baby. Act as a man if you break the law. Check out the story happen around twenty year ago. A boy (20's) Mike Who did graffiti to a car in Singapore(He not even awared that was against the law). We, American sent tide wave of protest, but didn't move Singaorean decision to slashed 15 times by cane and jail him for month before kick him back to Mid West. We suppose to drop the Singapore in notime, right? Wrong, the Singapore, now is the free trade partner of us. More American ( approximately ten folds than 20 years ago) have been hired by Singaporean.

Enough with the Singapore graffiti post. It is not relevant. I imagine if a Singapore native was caught doing graffiti, they would receive the same punishment. I am currently in Shanghai, and the only time people follow the rules(traffic anyway) is when there are policemen around. I don't know how many times our (Chinese) company shuttle driver ran red lights, drove on wrong side of the rode, etc.

I have had 4 colleagues visit the U.S (California)...they all had a Chinese drivers license and were able to rent a car and drive. If you are in the state for < 30 days, you are able to drive with non-CA license. As for immigration policies, I think it is common for illegals to drive without a license (and insurance)...whatever rules/laws are passed, in America you are entitled to due process (i.e. court), as well as representation(lawyer).

What chances does Abram have of being able to return to China? Does he want to?

I'll say the punishment does not fit the crime. I was stopped for making an illegal right turn on red in Taiwan. I handed the officer my visa and FL license and was let go. I guess as it is in Taiwan it goes for the mainland - that traffic rules and signals are merely suggestions because few obey the traffic laws.

I suggest to Abram - go to Taiwan. You'll like it and you don't have to worry about the gestapo throwing you in jail for a traffic violation.

It's easy to judge someone's situation as easy or hard, especially when you might be jealous of them. Funny that's probably what started the situation in the first place...

Is snorting cocaine or smoking weed still a crime in China? I am pretty sure I have seen several people who posted here do those things...and yet it's easy to point your finger and feel somehow superior, like you have never broken a rule.
Furthermore, we would all whine about being locked up when we should expect to be fined and then deported. Yeah, it was his fault but the punishment was definitely excessive.

Try going a sense of empathy...

I am sympathetic to your experience, but Chinese police this time just followed the law strictly. According to Chinese traffic law, driving without license is punishable by up to 15 days of detention (which is the maximum amount of time without a trial I think). Many people served two weeks for this kind of offense and you really should not expect different treatment just because you are a foreigner. I agree though that the prison condition is bad (that's why I am sympathetic) and they should improve it.

In conclusion, read the local traffic code before driving in a foreign country. You don't drive in US before learning traffic code in the states, right?

By the way, imo they should not kick you out because of this. Even sometimes with the punishment of detention, driving without a license is not considered a crime in China either. I also doubt there is a government policy of kicking out foreigners (why do you think they give you the visa in the first place). You might just be unlucky.

I would like everyone to know that I am not the person in this video.

What I meant with my first post was that a lot of people were making lofty assumptions about what should or should not be in this situation. It did not really seem like anyone had taken the time to empathize with the situation.

Punishment yes, deportation no.

And I can speak that Chinese people have developed a negative attitude toward foreigners. I was living there before the Olympic torches were extinguished and after. The way Chinese people treated me changed vastly within that short time, and then add in Tibet! I wish I would have been watching Chinese propaganda then, just to see what they were telling the Chinese about the situation... but that's secondary...

The facts are that lately foreigners have been having a harder time living in China than just a few months before and my friend took the brunt of it.

We should all learn there are marked differences in "developing" 3rd World governments and 1st World governments and one of those differences is far greater inconsistency of 3rd World governments. (one day you get a fine for doing something, the next day another person goes to jail and gets deported).