CIA: Torture is "subjective"
- added June 18, 2008
- 38 responses
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- current89
- added this
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- News and Politics (39397)
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A senior CIA lawyer advised Pentagon officials about the use of harsh interrogation techniques on detainees at Guantanamo Bay in a meeting in late 2002, defending waterboarding and other methods as permissible despite U.S. and international laws banning torture, according to documents released yesterday by congressional investigators.
Torture "is basically subject to perception," CIA counterterrorism lawyer Jonathan Fredman told a group of military and intelligence officials gathered at the U.S.-run detention camp in Cuba on Oct. 2, 2002, according to minutes of the meeting. "If the detainee dies, you're doing it wrong."
The document, one of two dozen released by a Senate panel investigating how Pentagon officials developed the controversial interrogation program introduced at Guantanamo Bay in late 2002, suggests a larger CIA role in advising Defense Department interrogators than was previously known. By the time of the meeting, the CIA already had used waterboarding, which simulates drowning, on at least one terrorism suspect and was holding high-level al-Qaeda detainees in secret prisons overseas -- actions that Bush administration lawyers had approved.
The memos and other evidence evoked intense bipartisan condemnation from members of the Armed Services Committee who spent nearly eight hours grilling some of the former and current officials involved with the decisions.
"The guidance that was provided during this period of time, I think, will go down in history as some of the most irresponsible and shortsighted legal analysis ever provided to our nation's military and intelligence communities," said Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.).
Sen. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.), the committee chairman, asked: "How on Earth did we get to the point where a United States government lawyer would say that . . . torture is subject to perception?"
Source: The Washington Post
Torture "is basically subject to perception," CIA counterterrorism lawyer Jonathan Fredman told a group of military and intelligence officials gathered at the U.S.-run detention camp in Cuba on Oct. 2, 2002, according to minutes of the meeting. "If the detainee dies, you're doing it wrong."
The document, one of two dozen released by a Senate panel investigating how Pentagon officials developed the controversial interrogation program introduced at Guantanamo Bay in late 2002, suggests a larger CIA role in advising Defense Department interrogators than was previously known. By the time of the meeting, the CIA already had used waterboarding, which simulates drowning, on at least one terrorism suspect and was holding high-level al-Qaeda detainees in secret prisons overseas -- actions that Bush administration lawyers had approved.
The memos and other evidence evoked intense bipartisan condemnation from members of the Armed Services Committee who spent nearly eight hours grilling some of the former and current officials involved with the decisions.
"The guidance that was provided during this period of time, I think, will go down in history as some of the most irresponsible and shortsighted legal analysis ever provided to our nation's military and intelligence communities," said Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.).
Sen. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.), the committee chairman, asked: "How on Earth did we get to the point where a United States government lawyer would say that . . . torture is subject to perception?"
Source: The Washington Post
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Torture may be subjective, unless it is being done to you. I rather doubt that the people we allowed to be tortured to death, thought it was subjective or a matter of perception either.
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The CIA needs taken apart and the rotten core removed before it is reassembled under close scrutiny. There has to be congressional oversight of them.
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- Marilynn_Murray
- 3 months ago
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Creepy Orwellian shit.
Welcome to 1984-
Freedom is slavery, torture is a sweet gesture. -
Torture is subjective, what is torture to one may not be to another.. why is that hard to understand. Like taking away your Big Mac might be torture to you but forcing an Indian to eat one would be torture..
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Again I post these clips, because it amazes me that this is even allowed. How morally corrupt are our institutions?
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I'm not sure about our institutions but if your using Comedy Central as your adviser then you might have to take it up a notch or two... of course the clips are out of context and setup to be as sensational as possible... it's a comedy show.... geeeez
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If you're a Democrat, then watching a video of an Iraqi citizen turned over to US soliders for bounty (with no actual evidence of terrorism) being sodomized with a stick while having female underwear put on his head seems grotesque and insane. Especially after he's released years later because, hey, he didn't actually do any of the things his money-hungry neighbors accused him of.
If you're a Republican watching such a video (taking a break between gay sex scandals) then it is merely an erotic film. One enjoyed with some lotion and a box of tissues.
So, yes, it is subjective.
Morally challenged, mentally unbalanced and sexually perverse Republicans (is there any other kind?) view the "interrogations" one way and normally humans view is a totally different way. -
So you like to watch these kinds of videos and speculate on how Republicans might view it... yea... right
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Well, this IS America, where we have ACTORS for PRESIDENTS, body builder/actor for the Governor here in California, and FOX "news"...
Sadly the Daily Show is much closer to real news then most all the "news" on corporate network channels. -
Observation: Republicans/Conservatives seem unusually terrified of homosexuality -- and yet an astonishing number of them are a) gay b) involved in gay sex scandals and c) seems obsessed with using gay sex or just plain old sexual humilation to "interrogate" the POW's at GitMo.
Isn't that really weird?
In another few years the word "Republican" will be interchangeable with the word "homosexual."
By 2011 it will become a schoolyard taunt!
I wonder how the South will react? -
"Torture "is basically subject to perception..."
Well so is beauty, but we know ugly when we see it. -
Let's waterboard this Jonathan Fredman guy and then see what he thinks.
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- Dmitri_Molotov
- 3 months ago
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this is absolute bullshit... these men shouldn't even be in this much power if they don't have the brains to say that torture is a punishment.
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Apparently sanity is subjective for them as well.
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- lifestudentno83
- 3 months ago
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I guess to a sadist it is all subjective since how can it be torture if they get pleasure out of doing it?
Jonathan Fredman must think all the detainees are masochists and get a thrill from what is done to them.
Going without a "safe word" must be like doing the trapeze without a net. -
Sickening, where is your humanity? Land of the free, home of the brave. Unless of course you are referring to Guantanamo Bay, then it is land of the free, home of the "fuck the constitution, we do what the Republican party says."
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- mikefisher
- 3 months ago
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Everything is subjective.
Art is subjective. Oh but it's only subjective when the art isn't offending you. When it offends you then it's no longer subjective....just like many things. Just like torture.
It's not subjective because it offends people.
People deem it necessary to tell people that no one has the right to govern their morals and yet the people are going to govern the morals of the Government.
Hypocritical.
Though I find stating Torture as subjective laughable, I find other people's problem with it as a whole...laughable, more so. -
Torture is subjective, and so is bullshit. However, we know that when enough people call something bullshit it is in fact bullshit. This applies to torture as well.
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"If for example, your were some sort of deviant attorney that worked for the CIA, you might personally not be averse to the idea of being soaked and gagged. By the way I am free on Tuesday afternoon... anyone? "
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- arturogarza
- 3 months ago
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In light of these new revelations about Republican, uh, "values" I think they should be banned from any type of employment where they might have access to children.
I think it's just common sense that you shouldn't allow registered sex offenders or registered Republicans to work in schools. Both are obviously disturbed individuals.
Hell, now that we see how they conduct themselves in prisons I think it might be wise to keep them out of there too!
These people need to be in mental health facilities under the supervision of a team psychologists -- NOT in positions of responsibility.
Putting these people with deep-rooted psycho-sexual disorders and violent, paranoid fantasies in charge of National Defense is reckless.
I mean, you wouldn't make a raging alcoholic and cocain abuser the President of the United.....oops. Too late. -
"Tgarius", eating the Big Mac's may not be torture to you. But, how about getting 8 to 10 of them shoved down your throat by a 240 lb. sadist! At some point they may appear to be less appetizing!
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Some people use religion or politics to justify their immoral impulses.
For example: A small group of Mormons use religion to not only justify and rationalize their rampant pedophila -- but sanctify it! They rationalize that there is nothing "wrong" with marrying a 13 year old girl because, hey, their religion says its a-okay.
And there are a small group of Americans who suffer from schizophrena, sexual fetishes and homophobia.
They are easy to identify because they are proud Republicans with Bush/Cheney 04 bumper stickers on their vehicles.
We need to face the painful truth that a small segment of our population has ALWAYS felt this way -- but thanks to Bush/Cheney we now can see how rampant it is in America.
GitMo is the litmus test. If you think what Bush/Cheney is doing is perfectly moral, perfectly legal and perfectly fine -- then, well, there is probably something wrong with you.
The proof being that you wouldn't find any of this treatment acceptable if it were being done to white, Christian, American soliders.
If it were OUR soliders being stacked in naked pyramids, sodomized, beaten and held for years without charges in a North Korean there is no way even the most hardcore Bush supporter would sit back and think that was perfectly acceptable treatment and perfectly legal. They'd be screaming bloody murder at how disgusting and evil such treatment (by the North Koreans) was.
The fact that they think it's perfectly okay to do that to non-whites is.....revealing to say the least. -
I got a private e-mail from you tjar, but I could figure out how to respond. So I will do so in public, like a man. I am not Muslim, nor a pacifist. Your assumption that torture would change my beliefs exemplifies the ignorance of yourself and our military. I believe that the idiots in control of our military, have recruited men not suitable for the task assigned to them. To cover up their failure to recruit men of high moral and capable character, they instead lie to the recruits, the public, and themselves. Our government continues to perpetuate this lie rather than admit a massive failure in judgement that has led to a crushing degree of grief for many American families. So in closing, you can "kiss my American ass"! Jarhead!
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