How I Found Utopia

Verita, damn it, you're just making stuff up, putting the worst possible spin you can on anything. Your resentment distorts everything.

It is very, very important to Damanhurians that everything is voluntary, and that each person is in an ideal place for their character. Damanhurians know that Damanhur isn't for everybody, and this applies to kids as well. The reason Damanhurians focus so extensively on travel for kids, is so that kids can see things from outside of Damanhur, and can see all kinds of different things so that they can find what matches their own inner nature -- it's very plausible that it's not Damanhur that the kids want to live at! Not because "Damanhur is evil," but because people are unique.

My understanding is that kids are _required_ to live outside of Damanhur for a period, before they can become Damanhurians. This is to ensure that they see life outside of Damanhur, and this is to ensure that if they do decide to become Damanhurians, it is a conscious choice.

As for the quality of education, you need to provide evidence that Damanhurian education is somehow "sub-standard." Many people who don't like Gurdjieff, for example, say "oh, Waldorf is substandard," and so on, because it's not what's main stream, but whatever. I would not be surprised if neighboring schools treated Damanhurian kids poorly, but that's just how people treat those who are different. What you're really arguing for is main stream living for everyone, and appealing to popular prejudices.

Damanhur also funds children's college education.

"...but it is all borrowed from other religious traditions none of it is original."

Again, ludicrous, even if it were true, because: Damanhur is intentionally and emphatically syncretic. It's also clearly innovative and creative.

When I was staying at the nucleo, I talked with one woman there who was not a Damanhurian. I asked her about this, and she said, "Oh, my sister so-and-so lives here, and I'm visiting." She knew a lot about Damanhur but wasn't Damanhurian, and was just visiting Damanhur. So again, your story does not match up.

I am not resentful Lion...I am telling the truth...

You are basing your assessments on marketing propaganda and a guest visit. You know nothing of the REAL Damanhur.

And as for the volunteering....

Nothing is voluntary in a cult...Did you know that if you do not do your devotional 24- 30 hours of work a month you have to pay the Federation the equivalent number of lost hours at your current rate of pay!
Very voluntary...very spiritual

There are two reasons for taking the children away traveling...one is to show them a bit of the world...the second is to make them emotionally independent of their parents.The process starts from when they are babies.

Falco has a very poor opinion of Damanhurian parents and in the past he took Damanhurian children away from their parents to live in a special children's house. Even the little ones. Parents were not allowed to visit very often. None of those children stayed in Damanhur once they had grown up.

Damanhur only funds college education for children who study subjects that serve Damanhur's interests and who intend to become A citizens.

Sisters can visit ...when did I ever say they could not?

Stop looking for holes in my arguments and LISTEN to what I am saying...

Anyone could be forgiven for thinking you are already a member of the Meditation School instead of just an outside observer....

You are a credit to Damanhurian propaganda Lion...

Unbelievable....

First, yes, I *do* think Falco wrote those books. You say stuff like "his authorship is now in great doubt," but here you are again, just casting doubt and skepticism on anything you can.

There are parts that are clearly cites from other books, but I don't see this as a problem, and I don't think it is particularly concealed. (I'm immediately thinking of "On Children" by Kahlil Gibran, who's passages are borrowed [not word for word, but clearly in tone] in Reborn to Live.)

Here's the problem Verita, every time you say "Gotcha!", it's about something where -- "I already know." "Hey Lion! Did you know that Selfica aren't really magical?" And my response can only be, "Duh, -- but it is all about the focusing of will and intention, and mapping out the circuitry of the soul, which is intrinsically imaginary." Tell me something I don't know, Verita.

Yeah, Damanhur quotes John Donne. And you know what? __John Donne is the right guy to quote.__ If you imagine that "For whom the bell tolls" is original, then I blame you, not anybody else.

Let alone Falco, do you think that Steven Speilberg actually makes his own movies? Or George Lucas? And did you know that they cite from predecessors in their stories and movies? Did you know that the famous renaissance artists hired people to do different parts of paintings, and that greek sculptors operated in something like sculpture factories, with many people working on them? Watch Star Wars side-by-side Flash Gorden - you're in for a real shock! And Mark Twain borrowed from history again and again and again.

Scary scary scary!

...And, ... if 37 houses are in his name, and those are the houses that the Damanhurians are living in -- then, I guess verita, the mystery of the houses is solved.

As for transparency -- when I was at Damanhur, and asked over dinner how things were structured economically, I received, "Very good question," and a overview about how it all worked, followed by forthright answers to all of my (and my friends') questions. Exact figures in Euros were given to me; It was just like when I visit a company here in the states and ask for a run-down on how it works.

Yes, when there are lots of houses involved, the numbers really do stack up. What do you expect? You have an enormous number of people living together and coordinating their funds.

Lion

The 37 houses are his PRIVATE property. Some are being used (and paid for) by citizens but they are nevertheless registered in his name.
The Community houses should belong to the two real estate Coops…i.e. to everyone. …but that does not appear to be the case because when citizens leave they do not receive any shares in the Coops or the monetary equivalent of any houses they have been obliged to give to Damanhur…
So why does he personally need so many houses when Damanhurians are NOT allowed to own even one?

Verita, I met a great many lovely, warm, wonderful people at Damanhur -- old timers and new people, who absolutely do not feel the way that you do.

They gave me love, fascination, dedication, solidarity, and care. It is clear to me that these are the ideals that they hold and struggle to make real.

It is clear to me that you are someone who feels burned. I won't question your experience and your feeling, because they are your own.

But I do not agree at all with your efforts to destroy Damanhur or to mar Damanhur's name.

Here is one thing, verita, where we have agreement:

"But there is no division of the wealth that you brought to the partnership. There are no civil meetings between both sides on how the divorce will be settled."

Marriage is something that the law has thought about for a very long time, and that people (pretty much all people) have come to agreements about.

But groups of people who choose to live together and aspire to a common aim -- such a thing is very rarely heard about. "Yes," there are corporations, but this is something entirely different, because only a small percentage of people in corporations pour their hearts into them.

The assumption in our society is that people will belong to "the main stream," and that we are in the same imagined community. (Celebrity gossip, the national agenda, the popular TV shows, etc., etc.,.) People who choose not to live according to the main stream are ostracized and called cults, until they become sufficiently large (and exist for sufficient amount of time,) that they magically become "religions." (The Mormons, for example.)

My defense is simultaneously for Damanhur in particular, and new society efforts in general.

What I advocate for is that society develops relationships with child societies (which are inevitably particular extensions of main stream values,) and not label them "cults." (Someone said, "Well, that's the only word we have for them." And yet, if you go to new societies, none of them ask to be called "cults," so there is a problem with this word.) When new societies are a recognized form, then there can be agreements between the main stream and new societies and a conversation.

That is, (using a metaphor,) as long as people think the concept of marriage is intrinsically disagreeable, then society will never seek laws about how to do marriage right, and there will never be divorce lawyers.

My dream is that CeSAP stops saying "Cults are evil! It's all seduction and brainwashing!", (giving no thrift whatsoever to reasons, to heart, to mind, to rationale,) and that CESNUR grapples realistically with the responsibilities of new societies to the broader society and to their individual members -- and that these groups connect and start outlining real triangular agreements between new societies, main stream society, and individuals within the societies.

Put in a sentence by way of metaphor: As long as society sees the whole concept of marriage as intrinsically wrong, then I don't understand how divorce lawyers can realistically exist as anything but a farce. (And really, these "brainwashing" theories are simply that: farce. I could just as well substantially argue that CeSAP has "love bombed" you by auto-sympathy to apostates, given you a "new language," a new cognitive framework of meaning, holds itself unaccountable and in many cases above the law [deprogrammers], engages in groupthink, is paranoid, and on and on.)

I think that individuals benefit enormously from participation in new society efforts, because many of us understand clearly how much the main stream atomizes us, controls us in illusions of "freedom," and keep us alienated within our skins and own homes. I believe I understand why people want to create new societies, and I believe that it is good to do so. I too tire of "spirituality that doesn't make a difference," and "activism that doesn't make a difference." I agree that new societies make excesses and make horrible mistakes. I don't think they know how to do otherwise, because it's not like there's any systematic study in "how to do it right." Those who do those studies are today organizing, and it's largely commune groups (incl. Damanhur) doing the research. It is clear that there are major potholes, such as how power affects testosterone levels within leaders and such, and how that affects decision making.

This is the outline of how I come to this conversation.

Hi SlugishSpock

This is not the place to talk of such things...It has all been said many many times in Italian forums and now that information is translated into English on an American site for everyone to read...

http://damanhurinsideout.wordpress.com

If you really want to know the inside story...go there and read the 75 pages that have been made available to help people understand the dangers of getting involved with Damanhur..
But I suspect you already know about that site...

Damanhur may be no worse than many other extremely nasty aspects of the world ...but it masquerades as a place that provides 'hope for humanity' ...and that is a joke - a particularly sick one!

Damanhurian citizens are not protected by the usual social controls that exist in the outside world and do not even enjoy some of the basic human rights that people of the past have given their lives for ...such as the right to free speech...the democratic right to freely elect representatives without fear of repercussion...the right to choose their own medical care...the right to choose how they raise their children ...the right to send their children to the school of their choice...The right to employees contributions and state pension contributions in return for their labor.
The right to think for themselves...

Abuse inside Damanhur is rife....

What more can I say...

Verita, your criticisms conceal that a big part of the reason people join Damanhur is explicitly in order to build a new society.

Intentional societies have values and codes; This is very normal. If people come together and say, "We're going to uphold these values, and we're not going to speak against them, -- this is what we're about" -- then, if you start speaking out against them, you *will* be kicked out. Don't complain "free speech!," "free speech!", because your free speech is irrevocable: You're complaining to us here, aren't you?

It's like saying "Well, I married him, I should be able to say anything I want to him, and decide where my kids go to school, and have complete dominion over everything that is mine." Yes, to a point, but guess what: It's a marriage. Your partner has a say. And if you regularly speak against your partner, you can be kicked out.

It happens that the society you were working on had a core value of communal raising of children. How could you have missed that? You found that you do not hold that value. Now you come to us and plead "They're bad, because they don't practice nuclear families?" (Clarification: "Nuclear family" = the American phrase for the 2-adult, 1-4 child family as a self-contained unit; I don't know how widely that term is used.)

It's like becoming a Mormon, and complaining that you're building beautiful temples, believing various ideas, wearing funny underwear all the time, are deeply involved in the family, and trying to hold these very high ideals, struggling to resolve contradictions between competing ideals. "I just want this and that, but without the other stuff." What?

Are you just against people being able to make their own choices? Should society say, "Oh, you can't choose to persue ideals, or make new societies?" New society efforts require leaders (it helps immensely if they're charismatic -- it's very hard to make new societies when the leader's uncharismatic,) require discipline and effort and distance, require all of these things.

And we should not be surprised that new societies have some core values that are different than the main stream -- otherwise, what's the "new" in new society?

My understanding is that people died so that you could have freedoms to do great things -- including the freedom to make new societies, and live by your own strictures of conscience and method. It was not so that people MUST live in nuclear families, MUST live by main stream values, MUST create their own thoughts completely independently of others, etc., etc., etc.,. If people are not free to associate, to form new ideas, new groups, new cultures, to choose to raise their children together, etc., etc.,. -- then the "freedom" to raise children by yourself is no longer a freedom, but an enforced requirement.

As you know -- staying at Damanhur is always voluntary. Yes, they highly discourage leaving. But this is normal, and to be expected in a society building effort. Damanhur is not playing around. Damanhur is incredibly, lucidly clear, in agonizing detail, in the Trilogy of the Initiate, about what this entails. The people there have high dreams and aspirations, and incredible accomplishments, made from extraordinary sacrifice -- a sacrifice that was chosen. They make no pretense of being perfect, and repeatedly disavow such ideas.

What is Damanhur? It's a marriage.

It is not your place to silence me verita, I live in a place that holds up and values free speech. Therefore if I feel the need to talk then I will do so. There are no limits in dialouge and any place is a valid place to talk about anything.

I can agree that people suffer in Damanhur and inequality exists in this place. People suffer everywhere and inequality is inevitable in society since Damanhur exists as a collection of ogranized human beings it follows that suffering and inequality are a part of Damanhur.

These two qualities must be obvious to people though. Simply because of scale. They claim 1000 residents I hear that is a gross overstatement. So to be conservative 700 people allign themsemselves to the Damanhurian system. That is a small number that people living in the system could keep track of. We could say perhaps that nearly all suffering and inequality that goes on in Damanhur would be obvious to those within the system.

If we were to measure suffering and inequality this small number becomes difficult to compare with the rest of the world. 699 people suffering while 1 prospers is a terrible ratio. The magnitude of suffering going on would be an important factor. Are people starving? Their are accusations that cancer is above average in Damanhur do to some technology they employ. Are people able to have strong relationships and cildren? Do the people live in fear?

I guess what I am saying is yes, this place appears to have a strong counterpart of inequality that could be lickend to something like a dictatorship. However I am not convinced that real suffering occurs in Damnhur beyond the realm of living in a dictatorship and being a person who is programmed to see democratic structures as the pinnacle of good.

What makes Damanhur a truely impossible place to live happily. Would you prefer somalia? china? north korea?

That is a bad arguement. Damanhur is not bad because I percieve other societies as being more oppresive or dangerous....Where Damanhur sits on the spectrum of human societies is irrelevant. It has a right to exist and hopefully it will evolve. I doubt that Damanhur is either all bad or all good.

Personally I do not plan on going their, certainly not living their. However to say that this place is completely understood and follow this link it holds the box a truth is insane. It would have to be more up to the individual wether or not Damanhur was a good or terrible place to live.

The shaolin monk lives in poverty. Works to uphold his community and values. Subjects himself to the utter extremes of pain, vulnerablity, and suffering willingly. Is he being opressed? Should his culture die because it is not built on more modern values?

Carissima SlugishSpock

I am not trying to silence you…on the contrary I am encouraging you to find the answers…which you will not find here.

But to return to your post:

Are you are saying that just because suffering exists in other religious realities and people accept it...that absolves Damanhur of any responsibility for its regime?

You have missed the point and I do not need a lesson in democracy or social anthropology from you to know that when an organization claims to be one thing and turns out to be exactly the opposite something is very wrong somewhere.

I suggested that you read the Damanhur inside out site because it expresses the life experiences of many people who have lived in Damanhur and given the best part of their lives to it, only to discover that they had been terribly deceived.
I do not think it is gracious to dismiss their lives as a ‘box of truth’ at the end of a link. Excuse me!

You also write:

“It would have to be more up to the individual wether or not Damanhur was a good or terrible place to live.”
Yes, individuals must decide for themselves…but what do you need to make a wise decision? You need information from both sides...up until two years ago the only information available was extremely biased in favor of the Damanhurian system and those who left the Community could not talk about their negative experiences for fear of all kinds of reprisals. The Internet has changed all that. Now people can consult the Italian forum sites and ‘Damanhur inside out’ and read what life is really like in Damanhur. They can weigh up all the information and compare it with all the latest sociological research on such movements. Some may still decide that Damanhur is the life for them and they will then pay the price for that decision. As many already have.

Perhaps they will be happy … but in the long term I doubt it… their children will probably never forgive them.

You say Damanhur has a ‘right to exist’ and I say YOU HAVE NOT LIVED IT!
Thieves also have a right to exist but that does not mean they should not be punished for their crimes.

Ciao

Verita

p.s. If by any chance you are writing as a member of the Damanhur press office …please forgive me for saying that you have not lived it….and look around you…the truth is right there under your nose.

Again, I assure you I have never been to Damanhur but if it makes you feel better you can continue dismissing me as a being involved with the Damanhur press office.

I have read as much as I am able on the subject of Damanhur. It is from my perspective a terrible place to live. Laws restricting the reading of "outside" literature is an affront to everything I stand for.

Manipulating people to think this place holds salvation and perpetuating that ideal in people with strong systems of social control is appauling.

The 4 control structures Damanhur uses to keep its people believing they work for goal A when in fact they are more likely working towards goal B is unfortunate. On the off chance the Falco is in fact what he believes I will stop short of organizing an independent guerrila task force to move in on Damanhur.

The people in this place need outside help, but are in the awful position of being beside themselves and will most likely resist help with every fiber of their being.

SlugishSpock, if all I knew about Damanhur I had learned from verita & her company, I would agree with you. However, I wouldn't be so quick to claim her perspective as your own, because she is misleading you. Countless things spoken on their site is downright false, and you can verify easily.

For example, in the Damanhur journal, there are countless references to Damanhur collaborations with activist groups, environmental groups, political groups, and so on. I read about Damanhurians thinking about the US economic crisis, and about what they could do about it.

Now explain to me: How could this happen, if Damanhurians are not allowed to read about anything happening outside of Damanhur?

That said-- Damanhur is a place for making dreams real. One of the first things any book on making dreams real says, is: "Well, for starters, turn off the TV, and stop playing video games. Focus on the dreams that are coming from within."

I think you'd agree that this is fair advice for individuals -- my question is, "Is this fair advice for groups?" I think that the answer is yes.

As for "salvation" -- I do not know what you mean by that term, and I have not heard the term used at Damanhur. I have seen the whole gambut of esoteric thought at Damanhur. As I understand it, Damanhur is a place for people who want to bring a dream world to reality. What is clear is that self-control is necessary for the individual to become a person who makes an extraordinary dream come true, and I believe that a society, to do the same thing -- I see no reason why it should be any different.

I do not see where the argument stands that says, "Groups of people cannot strive to self-control themselves to make an extraordinary dream control." As long as the effort is voluntary, as long as people can leave at any time, -- then: I need to hear a strong argument about why people cannot lend themselves to such an effort, or why we should criticize those who do.

I see nothing at Damanhur that separates "goal A" from "goal B." You'd have to tell me what Goal B is.

Verita says "Falco just wants money." That makes zero sense to me, and the only way I can fit it, is that Verita is trying to appeal to the mainstream fear-fantasies, in order to get them (ie, you) into FUD & hatred of Damanhur.

The claim is as realistic as anti-consumerists saying "Walt Disney was in it for the money." As far as I can tell, from everything I have seen, the only thing Falco knows to do with money is to build temples and develop Damanhur. That's what Falco spends his time on, basically all the time. (Why does he do it? Some times, the best explanation is the explanation at face value: To re-inspire humanity, to contribute to the central fires of humanity, to show that other ways of life are possible.) If you read enough interviews with Falco, you start to realize, "This man's always busy." Not because of anything that he's saying, but because of the conditions of the interviews: "We're in a car going to place X..." "We're at the site of the construction, ..." "He was busy with ..." Money-making scheme? Please. If it were a money-making scheme, and if what Verita is saying is true, then he'd have packed his bags for Tahiti a long time ago; Damanhur is simply too much work for that kind of explanation.

If what Verita says is true, then why was I not ever, not once, asked to live at Damanhur? Why was zero effort spent on getting me to stay at Damanhur, in my two weeks there? Not so much as a single **pamphlet** ??

And if they're hell-bent on world domination, then why are they inviting groups in order to encourage them to form their own cultures and societies? Why do they collaborate to help people figure out how to make their own societies?

"I wouldn't be so quick to claim her perspective as your own, because she is misleading you. Countless things spoken on their site is downright false, and you can verify easily."

I assure you I am not adopting another persons opinion. I approached this issue with an open mind and after reviewing all the sources I could find I came to my own conclusions.

"Now explain to me: How could this happen, if Damanhurians are not allowed to read about anything happening outside of Damanhur?"

It could easily happen in two ways. One the journal is false and no such activites have taken place. Two Falco remains connected witht he outside and uses his influence over Damnhur to further his agenda.

"That said-- Damanhur is a place for making dreams real."

This is a dangerous course. Who'se dreams? How? It sounds like a grand statement, but how does something like that play out in reality.

"As for "salvation" -- I do not know what you mean by that term"

I mean the amount of dedication the citizens appear to give Falco is under the pretense that he is a divinity destined to save humanity.

"As long as the effort is voluntary, as long as people can leave at any time, -- then: I need to hear a strong argument about why people cannot lend themselves to such an effort, or why we should criticize those who do."

You have already given the arguement. If the effort is voluntary then it is justified. I would like to argue that the idea that a person within Damanhur can leave at any time is absured. Maybe on the superficial level, as in the doors open and you can go but not on the realistic level. I can only licken it to a child voluntary living with his parents. He can leave at any time but he has nothing, nowhere to go, he is completely dependent on parents. The Damanhur citizen may leave, but can they?

Goal A represents the surface teachings, philosophy, and presumed justifications for all actions within Damanhur. Goal B represents any and all ulterior motives that Falco as a human being could potentially have. I can not pin point what his motives are but I also can not accept that the inner-workings of this system are fair and for the purposes that are being taught. Falco is either so dilluted in his pathology as to believe he is a divinity and everything that flows from him is just or he is knowlingly abusing peoples lives.

I am not saying that Falco is in it strictly for the money, but Walt-Disney is a horrific example to your case. Walt-Disney had no power, he was not in a position above people making decisions that darastically influence lives. Walt-Disney started an entertainment based corporation, and I am sorry to say it was in fact in it for the money as all american CEO's inevitably are. Falco is more in the position of someone like Dick Cheyney. He has real power over people, and when we follow the money it is all securely in his pocket. It is a question of loyalty, can we trust the people we call ma

Why was zero effort spent on getting me to stay at Damanhur, in my two weeks there?

In all sincerity to me this is more proof on the side of a system of control. If this was a society with humanitarian goals, and an impossible amount of work to do wouldn't it follow that more people would be welcomed/sought? In a system of control it would be more beneficial to keep a number like 300 and only let in more when it became necissary. Why risk bringing in a person that could potentially withstand social control and break the system? Why invest in resocializing more people when the drones are effective as is.

The dialouge involving this place is difficult. The accusations are of lies, deseption, manipulation, and exploitation. If you visit this place the pretense is you are not seeing the real Damanhur...The only thing that can truly help sift through all the information and misinformation that exists is a follow up report. Interviews with those who have left and those who remain.

The journal is not false, and those activities take place; You don't have to take Damanhurian's words for it, -- the papers of the people that they collaborate with, who are all over the world, and have name and reputation in the activist worlds. If you trust me and my visit -- my friend helped out in an experimental building project that was (he tells me) a collaboration with an effort in a university.

"Who's dreams?" Damanhur argues for dreaming, sharing dreams, and making dreams real. It is not about "who's," but it is about sharing. There is one dream that is Damanhur-wide (the temples,) and then there are dreams for the nucleos of Damanhur, which originate from the people themselves. The Constitution tells a little about this -- any group can form to make a dream, to confront, and to make it real. Damanhurians promote the concept of dreaming, both internally (at Damanhur,) but also more broadly. They are enthusiastic about individuals who want to persue their own individual dream, by themselves, (and there are individuals in the school of meditation who do not live at Damanhur and do just this,) -- but that's not what Damanhur is about.

People hear "new society effort," and they immediately assume that the society effort is trying to make everyone live just like them. This is often true. But it is a severe mistake in the case of Damanhur.

"Saving humanity." First, understand that Damanhur is mythic. Myth is a fundamental way of talking at Damanhur. Next, understand that Damanhurians strive to de-trivialize life. (Bookchin argues vehemently for this, as well, for example.) Only history will tell whether Damanhur has done something fundamentally positive for humanity, or not. Personally, I believe that they have, and that they do.

I agree with you that "voluntary" becomes inappropriately difficult at Damanhur. At the same time, I wonder about the conscious choice of it: "I'm going to commit to this, and to make my commitment more real, I'm going to give you this and that and the other thing." How legitimate is the Odyssian contract? Nonetheless, I do not like it. I would argue to Damanhurians to change that policy; I strike it as one of the things that I do not like about Damanhur.

There is an important difference with the "child voluntarily living with his parents" -- the child does not choose the parents.

I would respond more, but I need to go.

One last note -- investigate the life and thought of Walt Disney. Look at the arc of his life, -- animating, to DisneyLand, to DisneyWorld, to the Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. Also read Disney quotes and thoughts. I do not believe you know the man.

I just remembered -- when I was staying at Cornucopia (a nucleo at Damanhur,) my friend Phil handed me a book -- one of my favorite books in the world: "The Last Unicorn," by Peter Begel. It was written in Santa Cruz, where both Phil and I grew up. He said he found it in the Cornucopia library, and showed me their collection of books.

When I was stayed overnight, in Damjl, there was a glass case with tons of books in it. Was it "Laws of Form" that I read? Regardless, I don't think a single book in there was Damanhurian.

Then there is the gigantic mine that Damanhur just bought (--hey, that probably cost some money for them to purchace, didn't it? -- and then there's the Japanese company they're contracting to design the train and the train infrastructure, for connecting with the neighboring temples) for transforming into new temples.

What are they building into the mine?

The aspiration is to build the world's largest library of esoteric books.

I am skeptical of this theory, because for all the self-cultivation in the world, where are the transformed societies?

Everywhere I look where I see a very different society, I see either: (A) an indigenous culture, which was formed in an environment totally different than we see today, or (B) a society with a leadership.

I am very skeptical that it is possible for us to make the warmths that we perceive within our hearts into daily realities without communication, coordination, agreement, and so on.

It seems to me like one who loves a woman, and never says anything, vs. the man who is married with whom he loves. They are radically different things.

Hence my skepticism on the: "If we all meditate, if we are all at peace within, then it will just emerge."

Inner peace preceeds outer peace, but I am skeptical that without motion, action, and (by mathematical necessity) leadership, that it will happen.

The model I look to is how Open Source works, and it is the Open Source Model that I look to when envisioning a social transformation. Open Source projects are hierarchical, but there are tons of them, and the fact that they are hierarchical is hardly an emphasis point. Self-organizing but also guided.

Whether they are good or evil no amount of internet testimony can make truth. Is it a true Utopian society? Absolutly not, but Russia was never a true socialist society either.

One thing worries me about this place. Whether their leader is good or evil he has made a sustainable underground community and is supposedly controling all of the wealth and power these people and this place can offer him.

A man with a golden tounge has found a way to remove himself from the obscurity we are all slaves to and manipulate a group of people to spend their lives working towards his end.

Is he evil? Does that scenerio not happen every day everywhere. Are we all truely free? This person has done something. He managed to build a fortress that has the potential to survive all sorts of apacolyptic scenerios and got people to give their lives for his cause.

What this man has done all societies have been of victim of at some point. We live in groups that have been formed under the direction of smaller groups and individuals and evolved over thousands of years. This man accomplished something that can lead to a new world order.

Is he evil? Is he just different and the latest thing to happen?

No matter what he is Damanhur exists and it will either rise or fall as all societies do. The individuals in their are commiting the same crimes of obedience and being victimized in the same way we all are. This is just happening in a way that we can observe it. If we could observe the beginings of Christianity, Hindi, or Capitalism in this way I wonder how we would feel towards the manipulaters spreading those ways of life and benefiting from having people fall in line.

Hi slugishSpock

I must say your post has a whiff of Damanhur PR about it …especially the English…however...

You wrote:

“Whether they are good or evil no amount of internet testimony can make truth.”

Internet testimony does not have to ‘make’ truth …THE TRUTH IS and whatever you or I decide to comment on in web forums does not alter that fact. TRUTH in this case is not a facet of a crystal as Falco would have us all believe, TRUTH is a force for GOOD and it will triumph in the end.
Damanhur is built on LIES and incessantly perpetuates them.

“He managed to build a fortress that has the potential to survive all sorts of apacolyptic scenerios and got people to give their lives for his cause.”

Don’t kid yourself into thinking that this man has built a fortress …he has built nothing of the sort.

All he has done is lie and cheat his way through many people’s lives and encourage his unsuspecting herd to dig themselves into an esoteric hole and I am not talking about the famous underground film set. …

Damanhur is no fortress; without outside funds and essential services it will go down just like everything else…their solar panels need the national grid to operate …they have very few generators and no stockpiled fuel They are NOT self-sufficient …not in food, energy or water. But they do have guns.

They are as susceptible as the rest of us… it is all marketing nonsense… The only fortress that man has built is a monetary one. Not surprising when you think of all the millions he has creamed off his true believers over the years…

Do not make the mistake of equating the development of Damanhur with that of other social systems. There are checks and balances in social systems ..they grow organically …there is criticism and opposition as a society grows and develops. Damanhur is the result of a private plan by one man…No one can interfere with or modify that plan… it is unquestionable …even in the worst regimes there are dissidents ..in Damanhur there are no dissidents… just blind followers…that does not constitute a society that constitutes a CULT.

“This man accomplished something that can lead to a new world order”

If Damanhur is the model for a NEW WORLD ORDER….(as well it might be!). I think we are all in BIG TOTALITARIAN TROUBLE…!

Go and live there for ten years …then we can talk….

Verita

P.s. If you are already living there SlugishSpock, or you are a close friend of the regime…as I suspect.

WAKE UP!

The sword of truth is coming - watch out all you liars - you're next!

For more info visit: http://damanhurinsideout.wordpress.com

I don't think you're a failure, verita.

And: I don't think that Damanhur is bad.

On the contrary, I think both of you are very good.

No, I did not bad mouth CeSAP.

If I am "crazy" and made a mistake, it is assuming that they believe in dialog. "Irrelevant issues" appears to be responses to their criticisms.

You're right, Amy -- rape is never okay.

That's why I objected so strongly to the Adam Clay article, wherein you wrote:

"There are six men lying supine on tables. None is allowed to move, at all. I am one of six gleeful women wearing lingerie and satin gowns. At the same, we each mount one of the men for a few seconds. Then we simultaneously dismount and move on to the next, and so on to the next and the next, having sex with all the men. Meanwhile the men are meditatively still."

If you rule out sincerity, than I see no basis for conversation.

"She needs to understand why she needs to change her story."

Yes, -- the story encouraging the rape of men. If anyone wants to read your story, they can google for "Adam Clay Reality Sandwich."

I would rather have psi struggles that work out through listening, sincerity, reasoning, and appeals to the better nature of a person, rather than by false accusation and name-calling.

If I am condemned as one who "bullies through sincerity," than I guess I just don't see how that's different than "arguing," which is an essential act in the political world.

I have drawn no conclusions ("You seem,") and, like you ("strikes me,") I have only said how things appear to me, -- there is a big difference.

I believe that you are sincere and well-intentioned, and I also believe that you have done concrete good for the world.

If you accuse me of being manipulative, then what can I say in response? If I say something kind about you, then it's merely pandering. If I say something critical of you, then it's a clear conceit and demonstration of a hostile spirit. If I say something that is neither of the above, then I am unresponsive, and agree by silent consent. If I insist that I am not, then I am a weak baby.

Given such a quadruple-bind, I choose to tell you that I like your articles, (even though there are changes I wish you'd make to several of them,) and you may now freely accuse me of manipulation.

There is a way of looking at the world wherein there is no such thing as sincerity, only layers upon layers of compounded manipulation. Wherein there is no soul, only layers and strata of atoms and molecules. Marriages and societies become psycho-sexual mutual enslavements and cults.

My basic position is to see what is noble in the other person, and speak to that. (And, though you judge it to be manipulation, I do look favorably across to you.) To see what is valid in an argument, and speak to that. It can be summarized as optimism. I do not always live by it, and it can become a daily struggle to do so, but that is what I believe in.

(In the case of your Adam Clay article, I was enraged by what I saw as the anti-male character of it, and did not speak to what is positive in it. But I do not always succeed to live what I believe.)

"Why don't I live at Damanhur?" You may as well ask why we do not strive to be the same person. Admiration, love, and affection, does not mean that we must seek to become them.

The intent for Damanhur has never been for everybody to come to Damanhur. They have repeated this over and over in countless mediums, in myriad ways. Their intent is for people to find what is beautiful in life and in themselves, and to make it real. This is why they host yearly conferences for people and groups who are starting communities, to share what they have learned, to see what they can learn, and to further liberation of humankind. It's right there at the top of their constitutions, aims #1 and #3.

I believe that Damanhur has a proven track record, and demonstrates a great way forward for the human race to look to. I do not take the apostate's claims at face value: I know that the people at Damanhur struggle, but I also know that they are sincere in their efforts to realize their values. They may fail at times, even systematically so, but they also succeed at many times and in so many ways.

I brought a bag of Ghirardelli's chocolates as a gift, and I think I doubled the entire nucleo's garbage output for a *week.* Not one of them mentioned this to me; It is simply what was clear to me when I looked in the (enormously complex) garbage recycling system they have.

I have found every effort towards living sustainably, for living lovingly, for expressing creativity in everyday life, and so on, and so on. Where they have failed, they have failed because a choice had to be made one way or the other. Their sincerity, struggle, and striving is utterly undeniable, though.

Mm-hmm.

Hello Amy, we meet again. No, I am not a Damnhurian.

Yes, I did study the Holocaust in high school, and I did read the diary of Anne Frank; It is standard curriculum where I am from (Aptos, CA.) To say that it was "moving" is a severe understatement.

However, I did not know that the sign above the gate reads, "Work Makes One Free." There were many things I learned about the holocaust, this one that I did not learn.

However, I ask you: What is your point? Is this not merely an effort to tar? For guilt by association?

And you have not addressed the substance of what I am saying, and what every skilled artist knows, and what every Buddhist teaches: That in order to find freedom, we must master our passions, we must master ourselves, that we must self-submit ourselves to rigour and discipline.

Is this principle something that you argue against? Are we to make holocaust-proportioned murderers of artists and self-disciplined people everywhere?

If not, why do you bring this up? Is my prior ignorance of a small fact of history truly relevant or helpful?

And yet, verita, for all that you say, the individual sovereign is held fundamentally important above all at Damanhur, and a person is free to leave whenever they want to. Free choice and deviation is explicitly encouraged even in the case of total support (or opposition) by the community -- "the splitting of the planes."

You say "psychological coersion," but I say: "choice."

If "psychological coersion" is real, then all marriages are void.

I would point you to realize that for every bullet-point item, every check-box that you put forth, in terms of "How do I know if psychological coersion is happening?", that you also ask yourself, in all honesty, if the same exact thing could be said about a marriage, to either a person, or to a family, or to a task with a group of others. I belive that you will find that, in every single case, the answer is also: "Yes." In which case, are you really discriminating anything, except for negative language vs. positive language?

"Friends" vs. "clique." "Courting" vs. "seduction." "Enthusiasm-raising" vs. "Charismatic leader." "Creating new ideas" vs. "creating languages to control thought."

A wise person going into a task test the environment up, and his relationships with others, in order to ensure accountability. 7 men choose a manager or director from amongst themselves, and says, "Call us on it if we get out of line." It's just how groups function -- everywhere. You might say, "Well, ideally, nobody needs any direction or moderation," but then you'd criticize yourself saying, "See, they brainwashed themselves." And then you say, "Well, dreams are stupid," except that that's in persuit of a dream of endless comfort, and we all know how that dream ends. The rotations of matter are fundamental.

As for the kids, would it REALLY make you feel better if they were more involved with Damanhur, or would that not just comfirm to you (and others) how much more evil Damanhur is? Damanhurians keep kids at arms length because they know that their children's inner nature may very well not be Damanhur -- and hence the focus on travel, and Reborn to Live cites Kahlil Gibran's "On Children" as argument.

My wish for both CESNUR and Ce.S.A.P. is that they collaborate on this single question: "What are the permissible boundaries for new societies, and why?" I do believe that we need new societies, and I do believe that societies automatic shunning of new societies is harmful, and help creates situations of unaccountability.

My wish for you and fellow apostates is that you report the truths of your lives there accurately and fully, including both joys and sadnesses, and explaining your own break in conscience -- the point where you decided, "Okay, I need to break this relationship." Everything is so "fury this" and "stupid that" right now. You're very angry! This is fair. But I would like to hear the full story, and I would like to hear the true story, as well. You didn't stay in Damanhur for 30 years because you were miserable all of the time. I've been there, and I know there is more than just appearance there. You can't make a city out of appearance only; Damanhur is deeper than DisneyWorld. Your souls are on the walls, and your hearts on your sleaves. Sadness and suffering IS visible, I read it many times in the Trilogy, and in the sensitivity of the Damanhurians -- there are kinds of sensitivity you can only have if you have pain.

Damanhur is magical because it is human. I do not blame you for leaving. I don't know that I would survive long myself. But I won't say it is not beautiful and meaningful. And I do thank you for your contributions to the temple.

Con Te, Lion Kimbro

p.s.

I am not worried about you anymore Lion I am seriously concerned...your head is full of Damanhurian JUNK...

It feels like yesterday I was eating dinner and talking with Pelican and Pooka and Paul. I remember pouring concrete, and buying food in the store. I remember the spiral on the roof of the Crea; I remember visiting the open temples and the magic of the other world you all created.

The entire place is imbued with feeling like no other I have ever been to on Earth. It cannot be denied. I remember the 3rd ring of the bell, for all people on Earth. This is not the work of one man at all; This is the work of an entire people, all unique and different, who believe in a dream and vision and in ideals. Their faces are everywhere.

I remember the kind words spoken by the lady at the bookstore, who noticed that I wasn't into the party the night before at Eco, and wanted to make sure I was alright. I remember her practical advice clearly. I remember the sensitivity, caring, and valor of the Damanhurians. I also remember their competitiveness with one another.

Damanhur is beautiful, meaningful, hard, and it is different.

Damanhur is Romantic, that's for sure.

I know very well what is meant when people say that the Damanhurians live in "a different world." When you're there, the effect is extraordinary: You really do think different thoughts, and see different things, when you are in such a place. In such a place, care for all of humanity is like the most obvious thing in the world. Yes, it is different than the main stream. But that was the point from the very beginning, wasn't it.

You cannot tell me I am confused or deluded, that I believe in "Synchronic Lines" or money multipliers; I am a rationalist materialist reductionist physicalist scientific skeptic. "I already know." But the human heart is not something stricken from my lexicon. You cannot disavow "The Neverending Story" merely because it is fiction. I know about the lines of evolution, (which ultimately stem from the energy of sunlight,) and I know how the psychology of fund-raisers work: how dollars multiply through matching funds. And I know that Damanhurians believe in giving a material form to every psychological reality; That ideas are not only to be abstract, but material, and interacted with.

You cracked under the weight of Damanhurian contradiction and paradox -- human beings molecularly composed of flesh and avarice striving to live with the gods that live within the imagination, who animate even the atheism of the atheist. I can understand that; I don't know how long I would survive at Damanhur myself. It is hard work making dreams real, is it not? Especially dreams that stretch infinite high. Hard work not just outside, but inside - most of all. There is no shame in giving up, and putting it behind you. We all understand.

But it *was* your choice to join, even as it *was* your choice to leave.

It was all clearly spelled out in the Seven Scarlet Doors. I do not hear you speak of it, perhaps because you don't want people to hear that you made a choice. You'd rather say she blinded you with her beauty, and that you were poor and powerless, and -- Someone, please: Put a burka on that woman, or tell everyone of her wickedness. Kill her if you can -- it seems to be your plea.

We are at impasse.

Isn't it amazing how intelligent people have differences?

I have read all of the pages that you have erected on your website; -- Every single one of them. Your pages marvel that "people must not be reading our pages, otherwise they would agree with us." Now who's attempting mind control?

Isn't all this talk of brainwashing simply rejection of the idea that people can think thoughts and make choices on their own?

I have noticed that there is a great gaping hole in your descriptions of Damanhur. Specifically, you never ever talk about the philosophy of Damanhur. You simply say, "Words words words," and mute thought.

You say, "Oh, there's a hypnotism process."

I wonder: Where do you place courting between men and women?

And I wonder: What do you think of the ex-wife who seeks to ruin her husband, because "he took the best years of my life from me?"

I have looked, I have visited, and I have studied. My evaluation is that Damanhur is an honorable society. It is a very difficult society, but nobody goes in unaware. Everyone knows that it is going to be hard, very hard. You cannot make something as extraordinary as Damanhur without incredibly hard work, inside & out.

People who join go in knowing what is coming. They have made difficult choices.

Or did you never engage in conversation or thought? Did you skip the Dying to Learn, Reborn to Live, the Seven Scarlet Doors? Did you somehow miss all of that?

Share with us your thoughts on freedom. Tell us about free men, women, and free societies.

Tell us about the man who wants to be an artist. Who is more free: The artist who never practices, who never studies, who simply asserts "I am a free artist," or the artist who learns about the texture of paint on walls, who disciplines himself, who works out rhythms and routines for the work? His friends say, "You're a slave to your art," and he says, "No, I am free." What do you think of this man?

To every accusation you make, there is another side of the story, a side that you do not tell, that you do not share, -- and, I wonder: If you even know.

Your criticism of Damanhur is all surface, no substance.

You insist that, because you left, and because you are one who left angry, (and we know that there are many who are not,) that your thoughts are more important than those who do not decide to leave.

For you, the only categories are "did not live there, live there, and left there," and the only people capable of thought about Damanhur are "those who left and are furious." Excuse me for thinking differently.

You insist that Damanhur is trying to get everyone to join. But I never see a whiff of that. Your arguments (assertions, really,) are extremely unconvincing.

I have met so many who have no intention of ever joining, but who have deep love and appreciation for Damanhur and the people of Damanhur.

If it is as you say it is, how come all of these people haven't joined?

Whether Falco is "enlightened" or not makes no difference to me, I don't even believe in "enlightenment." What I can say is that I had some philosophical questions after coming to a point of realization, questions that puzzled me for near a decade, and my reading of Dying to Learn and Reborn to Live answered all of the questions I had, in incredible clarity and detail. These are esoteric questions, so they are difficult to talk about in a forum, but the answers are substantial.

This is something that cannot be faked. It is as if you accused Ludwig van Beethoven of having made his "enchanting melodies" simply so that he could lay women. At this point, it does not even matter if it is true: The genius is present, regardless of whether Mozart writes "Leck mich im Arsch," or not. The mark is unmistakable. Or if you said, "Newton was an egotist," and tried to rebuke physics that way, refusing to talk about physics itself.

Your arguments simply do not persuade me.

Hi Investigator

I would be happy to answer a few questions for people. The Italian forums are not about 'accusations' they are about giving testimony of life experiences inside Damanhur.
Many of the contributors have spent ten - twenty years or more inside the community. They know what they are talking about.
There is an enormous amount of information posted in the two forums. Not all the info in the Focus forum is posted by former members, some of the posts are from local people who have lived alongside Damanhur over the last 34 years and are actively fighting against its political conquest of their valley...It is a very complex situation.
I cannot possibly translate it all for you...it is a life's work! But I can translate a few key posts to help people understand what the main issues are.

The 'Damanhur witness' site was deleted for good reason. The person who set it up was worried about the consequences of being discovered. Please do not publicize that info without checking with me first. I believe there will be another wordpress site in due course...the third attempt in fact to get some information out into the English speaking world.

Damanhur is in Italy...with all that goes with it. People are very frightened here. Do NOT get mixed up in this place. If you really intend to seriously investigate it, make sure you protect your identity.

I will contact you again via the Rick Ross forum.

i did read your comments. that is what shocks me most. it scares me how many people might fall victim and join this cult based on propaganda films like this. Thank you verita, for telling everyone the truth about this place.

As I said before, this continues to sound more and more like Jonestown. I have yet to receive a reply to my questions from Mateo Willis. He should try to go back with a Pt.2 video to see for himself all that you have stated here. Thanks for the info Verita.

1) There are lots of kids there, and they are shown and heard. They're all over various photos on the Damanhur website, and I saw them myself when I visited.

2) You can read about their currency here: http://www.damanhur.org/index.php/economic-vision-a-credito/1275-the-credit
Their post address is somewhere on the web, if you need it, call me up 206.427.2545, and I can dig it up for you.

3) Falco is the spiritual leader of Damanhur.

4) To tell the truth, the vast majority of Damanhurians are Italian. Those who are not are mostly European. You have to be able to speak fluent Italian to live at Damanhur. Damanhur's effort is to be as multicultural as possible, but practically, it is very difficult. They are non-proselytizing, so it's not like that can go out and get some hispanics and african-americans to come join them.

5) Joining Damanhur is *very* difficult and time-consuming. Damanhur is *not* proselytizing. I stayed on a visitor program and was not ever once invited to join, not even in the slightest. It takes several months to get through the first phases of joining, and there is a long courtship involved. You can read about it on the Damanhurian website. This is not something that one just jumps into.
http://damanhur.org/index.php/new-citizens

6) No, you don't. When I was visited, I was curious, and went to Serata. The room was about half-full, and about half the people were other visitors like myself. THAT SAID: There *are* events that are all-Damanhur, and that (I understand) everyone has to attend. (Solstices, I think, and probably others.)

Damanhur isn't a place you go in order to say "Nah, I don't feel like it," about things. It is a struggle chosen and taken. If you're looking for a comfortable place to live where you set your own agenda, don't go to Damanhur. If you want to contribute to a life-long art project, go to Damanhur.

7) I saw instances of just that, when I was visiting in the Cornucopia nucleo, so, I'd say, "yes."

The plant music reminds me quite of the Crop Circle music research by Jonah Ohayv("http://www.korncirkler.dk/cccorner/musical.html) that was done at the turn of the century. Roughly the same setup too, just instead of plants, it works viva calculations using Euclidian mathematics and geometry. Thus not just Crop circles, but also fractals and other geometric designs where found to produce musical/diatonic tones.

Either way, I'm still going to try to get my favorite bonsai tree here to sing to me ;). Probably post it up on instructibles and here at current.

Namaste,
Master Den Zuko - Feed your head free your mind - http://denzuko.wordpress.com/

Great questions! I'm wondering about them also.

Ah, was he just joking around then? And thanks for letting me know. :-)

please correct the pod and include information that cites Damanhur as a scam, worse yet a cult, worse yet Falco being one of the most evil men on the planet.

It is not what it seems, google Damanhur inside and out, damanhur is a cult please spread awareness

I didn't notice that, but you're right.