Scientific experiment suggests that sexual orientation is encoded in our genes

@GM "It gives people another excuse why they aren't really important, so what they do with their lives isn't important either, so it just toilet bowls around giving people open license to hump anything that allows them."

To the contrary, it empowers them to know that they create their own reality, they shape their own destiny. Each person takes ownership of the life they live and responsibility for the choices they make. No more excuses, but then again if you create your own universe, then who would you be making excuses to? No one except your self.

In my philosophy, you take ownership, you take inventory, you take responsibility, you forgive yourself, you realize who and what you are, you empower yourself with Gnosis, and you become a channel of love creating opportunities for fellowship and grace.

Perhaps you should read my paper I wrote called "Declaring Bankruptcy in the Banking Concept of Education" at my website at the link above. It explains this process in greater detail.

Jubal, you are a super-educated type and you no doubt impress many people with your ways of looking at topics. However, all those things you say we can have and will have we already do have. Your expansive philosophy is icing on a cake that already has enough icing. My experiences are different from yours. I worked in a donut shop for 7 years total, spread across many different shops and more than 7 straight years. I encountered a situation in every shop where a lady finishing the donuts with fillings & icings would invariably drop or spill a few unfinished donuts on the floor. Being out of sight from the Customers and torn between the desire to do "the right thing" or perhaps get reported for throwing out "good donuts" the lady would groan out and ask me the baker what should she do? This was real life not that imaginary world you are fabricating so I told her the same thing I'll tell you, that if you always have a ready excuse to do accept the easy excuse-supplying alternative (or in your case an imaginary other you spread across multiple universes and/or timelines) the human tendency is not as you want to say that we will lean naturally toward becoming more righteous. We'll pick up the damn donut, brush it off where it touched the floor and use it. It is truly amazing to see how much corruption you have woven into a high-sounding philosophy but you run smack into a wall of Reality. All you have done is fabricate the biggest treadmill I've ever seen. It grows baby treadmills.

If other timelines do exist and other universes also exist, I'm fine with that. I see no obvious contradictions between the Bible (nor Christian beliefs) and those ideas. However it is not some new and great path to "finding ourselves" as you suggest. Each person is physically stuck to their own Time and their own Universe. If those other timelines and universes exist it will make everlasting life a very complex place once we all find each other and beginning communicating across what is for now a non-passable void. What you are really accomplishing with all your "writings" is giving people more paths to follow that they can't follow but the end result of your "achievements" is evil... because in showing multiple paths you diminish the path Jesus said we need to follow to gain entry into his kingdom, to enjoy the many real blessings to come from his kingdom rule. What you are really doing -and most people won't know this- is you're putting forth multiple overlays on the dialectic belief system. And yet somehow you are dialectic-preaching yet keeping Christ in your new-woven fabric. hahahaha You can't do that jubal. Keeping Christ violates anti-God dialectics & the hope it offers to those who reject gods of all kinds. You have in effect split a hair in two opposite directions and most people fall before you. I do not. You do the same thing von Daniken did (sell books make money) no matter that you trash people misleading them away from the Here & Now before Armageddon.

I would suggest this jubal, that instead of building new escape doors out the back of the bar as you have... that we lock and bar all the back doors, and that will lead us to realizations you suggest makes your back door a mandatory creation when it is not. Having no fancy escape hatch philosophies helps people face their responsibilties just fine. As a "real world" example of that just look at the way people throw garbage from their car windows. Why do they do that? It's because they have been media-brainwashed into believing "SCIENCE" will save them from any environmental wrongs they commit. All your "philosophy" does is bolster that. When the floor -according to you- is filled with "donuts" from this multiverse to the next multiverse there isn't any reason not to pick them up and use them => SO THAT'S WHAT REAL PEOPLE DO. Attempting to combine Christ belief into dialectics deny-Christ beliefs is a hybrid but hey, you can make all kinds of hybrids that will be attracting any number of new believers from the 1980's-on cartoon-raised generation.

@GM you can belittle my philosophy as much as you want. I have not asked others to follow in my footsteps. It is you who are placing me in the position of "proselytizer", when in actuality that is your mandate.

If people are attracted to my personal beliefs that is their choice.

What amazes me is your utter sense of entitlement, that your beliefs are the definitive answer to everything and that you are empowered with some secret understanding that provides you with authority to establish a legalistic path to righteousness and redemption. You chide me with words meant to cause me shame and guilt with the admonishments "return to the fold." I proclaim there is no secret at all, that the path is quite simple. So simple that Jesus himself reduced the whole path to TWO, JUST TWO commandments Love God, Love Others the same as you Love Your Self. Love erases all Laws.

I am quite familiar with the law (all laws, theocratic and plutocratic) and I know where and how it/they originated. That is where you and I part company, because you claim that it is from the loving father that Jesus revealed, and I claim that it is from the angel of light; the impostor.

What you have completely misinterpreted from what I have expressed as "core beliefs" is that I DO believe in the Human Christ. Jesus was one such Christ. There have been many Christs. Christos in Greek means "anointed one". It is a title bestowed on "sons of God". I am a son of God, a human, on a path to Gnosis. Gnosis means self knowledge, knowing your identity. I come from my father in heaven. I do the will of my father in heaven. That is my identity, my core belief.

You dismiss me because I have come here to this thread to defend the "least of these my brothers" those that you have come to attack. You asked earlier what is GLBT? Well GLBT means Gay, Lesbian, Bi-Sexual and Transgendered. In your perception of reality as expressed in your posts, particularly in this thread, is to say that your Law says that these people are evil and need to repent and turn their lives around from the path to hell. But your sense of entitlement blinds you to see the truth and reality that these people are not in need of redemption from who they are because they are not being judged for who they are except by your Law. The law of your Jehovah.

I come here to offer them a different point of view, that they are not flawed as your Jehovah would have you believe, but that they are loved and have no need of forgiveness except self forgiveness; especially if they bought the koolaid your Jehovah has been peddling and fell to the temptation of self hatred.

You and I both believe in the same Jesus Christ, only where we are not the same is with regard as to the identity of the one you call Jehovah is. Those who follow Jesus Christ were never and have never been subordinate to the law of Jehovah and his chosen people Israel. The gentiles are not part of the OT law. The laws in Leviticus were specifically for the tribe of Levi, not for any of the other eleven tribes.

On the point of homosexuality, you are completely wrong if you wish to claim that the law of Israel holds them to be an abomination. Israel's Supreme court, which takes into consideration the law of Moses, has declared that homosexuals can be in the temple and can be legally married. But that is why earlier I chided you and Echoz for being of the sort of Christians who have a distorted view about homosexuality inherited from the Mother Church; the Vatican. They draw most of their authority with regard to homosexuality from the writings of Paul; who himself was a into self hatred for who HE was.

I will not put my light under a basket as you suggest. I will shine like a beacon. If ships come to the light I release then they will find refuge, comfort and unconditional love. If they gravitate to your light, been there done that myself, they will find a burden of Law, Jehovah's Law, which from my experience, is not love.

So you admit you have re-written the Bible to chop out the New Testament eh? Well, that's been obvious from your posts for a long time. However, the promise of the Bible that began with a paradise where men & women were NOT supposed to be living in a filth-stricken world like we have today is still the same promise. Jesus stated it over just for people like you.

It's recorded at Matthew 5:5. So you can hem haw all over the tarmac with endless explanations jubal but, the fact remains the paradise earth hope is alive and well. So the question becomes are all lifestyles and sexual acts acceptable to the God who is bringing paradise?

I have not "attacked" anyone jubal... but YOU keep saying I have. All I am doing is telling people the Bible promises Paradise to be restored because it is THEIR BIRTHRIGHT and humping everything they want has historically brought damnation and death. It happened to the world with the Flood, then to Sodom & Gomorrhah and it is, according to Jesus' own words, coming again.

It doesn't have a thing to do with what I think. It has to do with whether people want to stand up and demand their birthright that was restored to their grasp by Christ's ransom sacrifice.

You keep insisting that Jesus and Jehovah are on two different levels of understanding and quite much in disagreement. Have you not read John 17:21-26 where Jesus insists repeatedly that he and his Father are one? Jubal, you are a master cherry picker and you are leading people away from God into a great big ditch of death.

But if you or they do not want to obey the Bible that's your choice. I don't lose sleep over the choices other people make. That's entirely an individual matter. I think though if I was one of them and reading my posts, and seeing how you continue to dodge and evade any questions I ask you to explain... that they will be putting on their thinking caps now that they realize their leader el magnifico yourself is a charlatan.

You have been completely quiet where God's Kingdom rulership of the Earth is concerned... which is to me a gigantic RED FLAG because that's a subject every one of Jehovah's Witnesses -such as you claim you were for 4 YEARS- so you aren't leading them toward God's Kingdom so you're leading them away from it. There is no middle road except deep through the middle of your self-serving mind.

Deliberately leading people away from the only hope they have is an evil thing to do, not because I say so but because Jesus in his many parables said so... much as I realize how badly you want to make this about me. I cannot give out everlasting life to anybody. They have to want it and they have to knock on the door to get it. If they choose instead to walk in your door then you can give them life today and give them your attempt at absolution.

Absolution that is not backed up by the Bible or Jesus.

I personally have great difficulty accepting your statement jubal that you were once a Witness. You present me as if I'm Jerry Falwell threatening people with hellfire and brimstone and yet if you ever was a Witness you know you are stating an outright LIE. The book of Ecclesiastes 9:5 & 10 tells what the condition of the dead is and it does NOT say anyone is burning.

You know we never have taught that. What people should know about you is that you are deliberately trying to raise a lynch mob against me by stating falsehoods that YOU KNOW ARE FALSE.

Sir, the more you post the more you show people what you are. Your last post (above) you state Love erases all Law. hahahahahahaha The Bible refers to Almighty God as the Lawgiver. The more you post tells them that if they follow you and your teachings they have no right to their inheritance, a life just like Adam was offered. It took almost one thousand years -well within a Bible "day"- for his body's perfection to wear off and then he died from his sin.

The Bible is a legal document. Deleting the NT runs afoul of the judge.

I am at a loss to explain where you dream up this idea I hate my body. That must be a required part of the package you're selling. Well, I guess then all married people hate their body too eh?

Or are you cherry picking again? You're fading jubal, becoming transparent. You should have stayed away from me. I'm radioactive.

Don't you mean "chop out the Old Testament?"

God = Love

Love = God

You say God is the law giver, I say God is the law eraser.

Also what is so difficult to understand? I was a JW, I was disfellowshipped. I was disfellowshipped for kissing my fiance's breast and I refused to submit to their "judicial committee". In order to become baptized with JW's I had to go through rigorous Watchtower study. I had to be able to regurgitate the JW dogma.

It has been 30 years since I left. I say I left because I created the circumstance to be "let go". They never wanted to let me go. Everytime I left, they would come looking for me and take me back to the Kingdom Hall and to their "community." I quickly realized, after I was baptized, how to be let go. It had to be my unrepentance of something they wanted to hold over me. Sexual immorality; kissing a girls breast. That is so ironic isn't it.

As for me painting you to be a "hellfire and brimstone" preacher, I have done nothing of the sort. How convenient of you to say, well "I am just telling people about their inheritance rights" (as long as they repent of being homosexual, they can inherit). Justify or disguise it anyway you want, it still is attacking people for who they are using the bible. If you want to characterize it as "hell fire and brimstone" that is your characterization.

Your own words from above jubal => "your perception of reality as expressed in your posts, particularly in this thread, is to say that your Law says that these people are evil and need to repent and turn their lives around from the path to hell."

No, jubal, you were plenty careful not to say "hellfire and brimstone" but what you really did against the people reading your posts is you played off their common misunderstanding of the true Bible teaching about hell. You knew MOST PEOPLE associate Hell with Burning in Hell. You sir play off their ignorance of Scripture. You play off their youthfulness and you play off the fact many of their parents never learned or taught them the real Bible. Keep giving me sloppy attention and I'll keep exposing you for the liar you are.

You are raping them because they don't know the Bible really was written in a language that had 3 separate words all meaning different things and NEVER used interchangeably, which were all translated as one word HELL in the King James version. Yep, jubal, you're acting in an evilness toward young people on this website. You are also acting rather stupidly to keep calling me out into the ring.

Suit yourself.

You were disfellowshipped because God's holy spirit knew what you were and did not want you masquerading around as one of the flock. But you see it plays into your bucket of lies to say "kissing a female breast". hahahahaha You're transparent and fading fast. Keep typing jubal, all you do is sink your own ship.

You write like a flower child jubal, the way you keep repeating the LOVE word. No jubal, your heart is not filled with love because you keep pulling this tricks I recognize but others do not. For instance, you used a phrase intended to rattle me => "JW dogma". hahahaha You're barely tickling my funnybone.

It isn't the first time you pulled that trick, hoping to break my train of thought by upsetting me pulling out the phrases from your bag of lies. You think you can street fight around eh? Think you can wipe your shoes on me too? Yep, you're doing a slamming job of it. You must think I'm a newbie.

I get it now, you are one of those people who have to have the last word. I doubt very much that anyone has stuck to this conversation for very long. If you want, you can come to my post later about what the Bible says about homosexuality. But as for this debate, go ahead, do what you know your going to do. Post one more comment to have the last word. I know you will. You simply cannot resist it.

Sounds fishy to me buddy ro I mean Echoz. After all, we today are many branches off the tree and those timelines back then we are far removed from them. I don't think you're keeping up with jubal very well, you fanatic one~timeline~believing myopic historian. Jubal says that everything that was ever conceived by a man is a real place somewhere. Uhm, somewhere else that is. I think. We may need to bring back the rack to get you stretched out proper and up-to-speed. hehehehe

Thanks for posting the pictures echoz. Hopefully when you did that you didn't send us flying down yet another timeline. Sometimes too it becomes necessary to prune a tree. I think that time is very near. Just a thought.

Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.[37]

The text is obviously an amazing confirmation from a Jewish contemporary of the apostles, who was not a Christian, but still confirms Jesus as the Messiah (the Christ) and the resurrection. However, it is too good to be true. It is just unlikely that a man like Josephus (not a Christian) would write this about Jesus. Therefore the vast majority of scholars agree that the basis of the text is genuine and originally from Josephus, but that likely over the centuries Christian sources have added the statements about Christ and the resurrection. The text accepted as original is underlined in the above quotation, and it still confirms that:

* Jesus was a wise man, a teacher and a “doer of wonderful works”.
* Jesus attracted both Jews and Gentiles to be His followers.
* He was condemned to the cross by Pilate at suggestion of the Jews.
* His followers are now called Christians and they are “not extinct at this day”.

+++++++++

Sorry but the underlined parts don't copy over into this text box.

sounds like gnosticism =P

you're welcome jubal. parallel "timelines"? is that like another cloak for parallel universes? since we're off on a tangent, it somehow reminds me more practically of Gerry Schroeder's most excellent refutation of the evolutionist's passe "monkey theorem" where Schroeder says even if we took every particle in the universe and theoretically converted them each in to computer chips, each spitting out 488 trials (as in the number of letters in the Shakespearean "Shall I compare thee to a summers day?" sonnet) a million times a second, each spitting out random letters, the only number of trials you could get since the beginning of time would only be 10^90 (off by a whopping kick-you-square-in-the-ass factor of 10^600) proving most effectively that a group of monkeys in a cage banging away at a keyboard will never write a Shakespearean sonnet by chance [ala the chances that evolution even has a glimmer of hope is pretty damn shot too haYELL especially if the monkey theorem disintegrates this easily from the plausible imagination given some actual numbers)...anyway, the universe would have to be 10-with-600-zeros-after-it larger than it is now! =P SPECTACULARLY IMPOSSIBLE. And that's truly giving it the benefit of the doubt utilizing EVERY particle in the universe (10^80) to get it done [a little background: 488 characters of the sonnet x 26 possible characters at any given time = 10^600 more possibilities than actual particles in the universe] "And yet the world thinks the monkeys can do it every time." (Sincere thanks to Dr. Schroeder for making that irony only too clear once and for all. Antony Flew says the monkey theorem has been reduced to a "load of rubbish" given Schroeder's excellent refutation. Of course if you can't get a single sonnet in a reasonable amount of time "by chance", the odds of suggesting an entire Shakespearean work is possible given "enough time and random opportunity" is just completely absurd and stupid really, but such is exactly the rational that belies almost the entirety of evolution...sick really. And of course the fossil record hasn't provided unquestionable transitional life forms either and that's exactly why you can't remember any because there AREN'T any...lol)

Check out this little bit of scripture I found today Jubal, Gravity_Man...everyone =P (if you're still listening lol) It's only interesting to me because it seems to tell us a little secret in regards to the nature time itself may take given the creative hand of God Himself at work...Watch! Check it out...There's a real difference between what happens here in the physical world and what happens in the spiritual world!:

There is a physical body, and there is also a spiritual body. It is written in Scriptures: "[Prototypically speaking] The first Adam, became a living person." but the last Adam became a spirit that gives life. The spiritual did not come first, but the physical and then the spiritual. The first man came from the dust of the earth. The second man [Jesus] came from heaven. People who belong to the earth are like the first man of earth. But those people who belong to heaven are like the man of heaven. Just as we were made like the man of earth, so we will also be made like the man of heaven.

I tell you this, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot have a part in the kingdom of God. Something that will ruin cannot have a part in something that never ruins. But look! I tell you this secret: We...will all be changed. It will take only a second--as quickly as an eye blinks [creation!!!]--when the last trumpet sounds...those who have died will be raised, and will will all be changed...and this body that dies will clothe itself with that which can never die. When this happens, this Scripture will be made true:

"Death is destroyed forever in victory" [Isaiah 25:8]
"Death where is your victory?
Death where is your pain?" [Hosea 13:14]
Death's power to hurt is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But we thank God!

[it continues]...But we thank God! He give us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. So...stand strong. Do not let anything change you. Always give yourselves to the work of our Lord, because you know the work in the Lord is NEVER wasted." [those scriptures close out chapter 15 of First Corthinthians from none other than the admirable Apostle Paul.]

Did you catch that...that "changed" in "only a second" like a "blink of an eye"? ;) but you have to be ready! God is Almighty! I read today in Luke too where the mighty Angel Gabriel who stands before God Himself had said "God can do anything!" lol :D :D :D :D :D I believe it.

Well Echoz, yes it is the same as parallel universes. However, the parallel timelines have an origin in a single time line. Like the branches of a tree, the trunk is the core or central timeline, and the branches are the parallel ones.

How is a parallel timeline created you may ask? Well according to the theory presented in "The Cat Who Could Walk Through Walls", "The Number of the Beast", "To Sail Beyond the Sunset", and "Time Enough for Love" all by Robert Anson Heinlein, it is created when someone travels in time and changes some major event. Since time travel technology is the stuff of the future, the traveler is traveling back in time. For example, someone travels back in time and say kills Hitler. From that moment that Hitler dies, a branch of time is created and two parallel timelines move forward with different outcomes. The more times travelers change things in the core timeline, it creates more branches. Even the branches can have branches.

In the story of the books, the core timeline is the one the Lazarus was born in. It split up into many parallel lines based on time travelers activities from 4000 years in the future traveling back to when just after the early 1900's. The majority of the parallel lines have their roots in the first decade. The other parallel lines are from earlier times where a time traveler may have gone back to the days of cavemen or dinosaurs.

Anyways the big "Theory" that comes out of the stories is called "The World as Myth". Basically the theory goes like this:

Anything that mankind can conceive in his mind is a physical place somewhere in a parallel timeline. Such as The land of Oz, The Star Trek Universe, The Dune Universe, The Hobbits and Middle Earth, basically any well developed universe that has been described in a book, story, film, or belief system of a group of individual thinkers.

A writer can generate a universe by writing a book. And if the technology were there present in that timeline of the author, the author could physically travel to that place and it would be as real as the shirt on your back. Matter is just a holographic projection of an energy field. It seems solid and real, but truly it is full of space and light trapped in a magnetic substance.

BTW I am going to invite you to another thread here soon, I have been preparing all the evidence and facts that I will present in that thread. it is going to be an in depth study of the bible, its various books, its authors, and what their positions have been on homosexuality; in the context of the historicity of the writing and the culture of the times the writings were conceived and perhaps penned.

sounds interesting. I'll be glad to check it out. thank you for taking the time Jubal. I've been meaning to reply as well to your Gnostic views but as well I think it's clearly beyond the pervue of this thread that we've over-run =P lol it's been fun. Hope you're well... see ya later!

Where in the 10 commandments, as you mention them, is the one that says "thou shalt not be a homosexual?"

Also you should be aware that the 10 commandments are written on the walls of the temple of Luxor in Egypt more than 1000 years before Moses supposedly got them from Jehovah on Mt. Sinai.

Plain as a sunlit day, the people of Luxor 1,000 years before Moses they also knew they were to not covet their neighbor's ass. But since some translations say ox and some say ass I guess you have me on a technicality (maybe). I somewhat lean towards not being homosexual because male and female they were created for each other. Another reason is that the people had to die to get rid of it by using a Flood. The situation today is like it was before the Flood, so it is a reasonable extrapolation to conclude the coming Armageddon is to do the same "cleansing action" as the Flood accomplished.

I understand none of that is good enough for you.

Question then arises what good was the Flood if the same situation just came again? Won't the same result come from Armageddon? The Biblical answer to that is No. Armageddon as revealed in Revelation does something the Flood did not do. You will notice that at Rev. 1:10 John makes a very unique statement => "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's day". After the Flood Noah was not entered into this time period of the "Lord's day" because it wasn't time yet for it, but John saw it inspired in his mind to experience its portents. John was seeing on the other side (time-wise) of the expired Gentile Times (Luke 21:24).

When the Gentile Times expired in 1914 we entered the Lord's day, in advance of Armageddon. The book of Revelation has been unfolding in this Lord's day. What that has to do with homosexuality? Armageddon will be opening the way into the One Thousand Year Reign of God's Kingdom ruled by Jesus Christ and his 144,000 brothers that make up New Jerusalem (as John wrote further). One thing the Kingdom will do is it will enforce the law to the end of restoring all the living -and the resurrected dead- back to the condition Adam & Eve were in.

That is why Jesus when on Earth mentioned these things explicitly at Matthew 19 verse 28 quoted => "Jesus said to them: "Truly I say to you, In the RE~CREATION, when the son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit down upon 12 thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.""

The re-Creation jubal. Starting over. Humanity is to pass through Armageddon for a system restart back to the condition of Adam & Eve. Do you honestly think a Replay of Creation is somehow going to be adjusted the next time to include homosexuals? It didn't the first time.

To answer a question you raised earlier => Adam & Eve were created with perfect bodies so it was alright for them to have children amongst themselves without harm to the children like it became later. It was for them righteous, by God's Will having to take place, but later it was un-necessary and became properly no longer righteous. It became sport sex.

You also said to me that maybe I shouldn't be having dealings with you. Perhaps, but I see it a bit differently for this one time, because it has become obvious you were not properly instructed and you rushed through, so God through me is giving you the answers you should have had back then. Apparently you are desired to be back in the fold and walking with the great crowd (Rev. 7:9).

But first you need to leave behind whatever actions you are addicted to that will not be allowed under the administration of heavenly Law and I believe the practice of homosexual acts to be one of those. There are others. The offer of everlasting life is for those who decide to love God's rules because they will return all mankind to a condition of blessed peace we were intended to have from the beginning.

Many of us have been violated on a genetic level. Those changes will be corrected as everyone after Armageddon is undergoing a return to perfection, so that by the end of the 1,000 Year Reign Jesus will present humanity perfected back to his Father and we will start all over, each of us able to run and climb with the endurance of deer, as promised

These are the messages all need to hear.

Homosexuality and obesity have some things in common, both occurring in the brain. At first when a person overeats it is a choice but once a synaptic pathway has been tamped down over & over it's no longer much a choice at all. I had an early indoctrination into the other lifestyle by some neighborhood boys showing me how great it was to be sucked on. I was about 5 or 6 years old.

I chose not to repeat the experience so the pathway for it was not stomped into permanence.

Obesity I did get because the food mfrs were adding so many non-food additives, so the pathway through my brain did get permanently imprinted that lasted my whole life. At some point of obesity fat stops being normal fat. It gets viruses, environmental toxins, any residue the Immune System culls from the bloodstream to keep us alive gets dumped into fat repositories, mostly around the waist.

So "just saying no" didn't work where food was concerned. Corruption was laced all through the United States food supply like poison, which in fact it was. But, obesity is even more that that! Not only did they put garbage into our food they took out the stuff that was right for us... conjugated linoleic acid => C L A.

CLA makes the human body build more lean muscle (that burns more fat) and it also has a fat reduction activity. It used to be in milk dairy and meat. It was lost when the cattle became less grass fed, range fed. Butter had more CLA, and that's why the soldiers being trained in boot camp for the world wars were in such tremendous physical condition even though the mess sergeant was putting butter on everything.

You can increase your CLA by using safflower oil and all the other oils, like wheat germ oil, coconut oil, fish oil with plenty of Omega-6. Coconut oil also helps strengthen the thyroid gland providing your gland isn't poisoning you as mine was all my life. However, you do NOT want to get too much protein + coconut oil because they combine into a cure for hemophilia and will clamp your kidneys down. They combine into what is called a "chemical spiderweb".

Fat people are more susceptible to Swine Flu so the coming epidemic is going to take out more fatties than normal weight people. With extra nutrients like CLA we can weather the Swine Flu without needing any vaccinations.

You do know that the purpose of the flood, according to the writings, was to rid the world of the Nephilim along with what was considered iniquity.

Although the flood is also recounted in the Epic of Gilgamesh from the Sumerian Tablets.

My point is that the Hebrews could not have lived with the Egyptians for 430 years and not assimilated their beliefs and incorporated them into their ideology. Just look at the astonishing similarities between Horus and Jesus.

I know that the Watchtower teaches that they have the exclusive "true" interpretation of the scriptures, I am grateful to them for instilling in me a desire to learn the deeper truths, to dig beneath the surface and to realize that The Mother of the Harlots, the Vatican, had an agenda they promoted as religious but in actuality was political. You have talked about how humanity is enslaved. Paul had said in his writings that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

What I have been saying is that from what I have learned and studied since leaving the society some 30 years ago is that the evil one has been in control from the beginning when he set himself up as the Most High God. Is it really that far of a stretch for you to understand this possibility? That the world wide empire of false religions may possibly include the society itself? Granted they have had amazing revelations that they have reported and shared, but they also have miscalculated and have been wrong with their interpretations about the end times.

Also, one thing I wanted to say about your statement about that you don't lean towards homosexuality because you believe that man and woman were created for each other for procreation. I can agree with that, it has been, until the advent of artificial insemination, the only way to procreate. But just because something has been a tradition for a long time, doesn't mean that it was meant to be that way from for all time.

God may never change, but mankind's understanding of god changes all the time. Interpretations of scripture are just that, interpretations. They don't create reality, they attempt to alter reality to conform to the interpretation.

You have to admit, Gravity Man, the fact that neither the 10 commandments nor Jesus himself condemn homosexuality, puts the whole issue in doubt, even though you may be able to identify prophets and other books from the bible that condemn homosexuality, it doesn't mean that condemnation came from the mind of God.

lol you are crazy jubal. You can build your house on sand or you can build it on rock. You have almost totally specious arguments that malign core rock solid doctrine that the Apostle Paul would likely have you slapped for:

There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.--Proverbs 16:25

jubal, your information is in need of updating as far as the WTS is concerned, regarding the Vatican and false religion. While you have been outside the organization they have honed down and refined their understandings in a number of areas to a much sharpened point. I've been exceedingly ill so I'm not the one to update you. There was a great misunderstanding regarding 1975. Many of the brothers had exaggerated hopes that the Lord's day was about to roll on into Armageddon.

The Watchtower Society did not present 1975 that way. It's entirely possible you were associated with a Kingdom Hall where the brother's expectations ran incorrectly and overly high. 1975 marked -on the calendar- the end of 6,000 years of man's existence since being created in 4026. There was no great promise issued from the Society that Armageddon was imminent no matter what you may have thought or even been told.

One of the reasons we have the Truth is that we are always willing to eat the humble pie and change whenever Jehovah reveals something new to us, unlike many other religious groups afraid of upsetting their parishioners. We have been changing and constantly updating all along ever since Brother Charles Russell And Brother Barbour (and the others of the Bible Students group) began receiving the Truth in the mid-1870's. People incorrectly interpret our changing to meet new inspiration coming from heaven as we were "scripturally wrong" before. That simply is not the case.

The early Bible Students not yet calling themselves JW's were accepted to be Jehovah's vessel of revealed truth because the existing religions dropped the ball, unwilling to accept "new wine" whenever Jesus pours it. So it wasn't like we were oh so extra special as that they lost favor and had to be replaced. It could have been us or it could have been anybody BUT IT HAD TO BE SOMEBODY. But we have never stated to my knowledge the Vatican was not religious as you have stated in your above post. The problem with them is that they are trying to straddle the fence and serve the political agents & nations thinking they can still be the chaste virgin of Christ they were supposed to be.

Read Revelation! The bride of Christ thought she could never be replaced but she was because she committed an adulterous act toward Christ Jesus her intended when they struck a common bond with the World's political interests. The Vatican -thinking they are are still that virgin is not a virgin at all (religious-wise). The Catholic Church prayed for soldiers to successfully slay each other in all the 20th Century wars, telling them yes, you can serve God and mammon (the physical world) at the same time AND KEEP GOD"S FAVOR... when Jesus taught you can't do that at all. How did they justify that? They cherry-picked the one scripture and trashed the rest. Jesus saying no one loves his brother more than when he lays down his life for him.

In their choosing to do these things they stopped being Christ's intended Bride and we were handed the ball to keep running, much like how the ball was taken from the old Jewish system and handed to the early Christians that grew into the Catholic Church. Jehovah can take away blessings of service whenever corruption becomes the norm.

You're making a big mistake in inventing all these little side explanations and convenient imaginings that let you off the hook. When Jesus gave his two great commandments, first to love God then to love your fellow men, that included loving your fellow man so much you would NEVER deprive him of everlasting life... and when you engage in the conducts described you are bringing your sexual partner into a position where he cannot receive the blessing of everlasting life.

The most unloving thing you could possibly do. Instead of teaching him how to attain these blessings. So yes, I see you breaking a very big law. Not to mention sexual gluttony.

You are a very well read man jubal and you know many things about early pre-Christian history. I don't know if it's all true or not however, since the Jewish system of that time rejected God's Son ~as was shown by the temple curtain being rent in two when Jesus died showing that Jehovah was no longer represented by the Jews~ I have to ask does all that stuff have any relevance for us now today?

What does have relevance is what is happening right now, all the Bible prophecies coming true right now. I'm not asking you to forget all that stuff just suggesting you consider getting back on the horse while knowing that when those people are resurrected they can tell us themselves what really happened.

Let me tell you something jubal. The books and Watchtower magazines that are coming out now are astounding. The WTS has released several books directly addressing sexuality to help young people and adults know exactly how to handle sexual orientation issues. We didn't have that at the time we were active so we ended up messing up our lives.

And they have released a book explaining Revelation that would blow your great mind into the clouds it is so chock full of newly released information no other religion in the WORLD is giving its parishioners. We are being raised into the clouds above them all because we are undergoing the real "Rapture" raised in knowledge and Bible understanding above all the others.

The other religions have been left in the dust by Jehovah's holy spirit giving us all the new wine information we can stand as fast as we are able to take it in. Where are the other religions anyway? Wow, they are still believing the Rapture is a bodily lifting into the clouds. Come on man, get with the program card. Jehovah is blessing me with all these zero pollution engine systems FOR A REASON HAPPENING NOW.

You left the real flock once You can rejoin the flock too.

People of all the nations are becoming a stampede to us.

We have been adding 50 congregations every week for a good while now.

People thirsting for Bible Truth know we have it.

Meekness means teachable.

You are not meek. You speak like you know it all and that you are an expert on what being homosexuality is all about, from the pov of God. Its people who think like that that are hastening a global apocalypse. Just like in South Park last night on TV,

Cartman's Sea Monkey stage an all out nuclear war of mutual annihilation because each side refused to accept the other side's god.

Many of the things you and Echoz have suggested should happen to me, because I challenge your blind faith, reflect this kind of mentality.

You are a completely loon Mr. Gravity Man.

BTW, you two guys challenged me to offer up the proof of Jesus invalidating the OT law. I have it prepared but I am not going to continue to taint this thread with more theological discussion, I will post it elsewhere and invite you to it,

Yeah. I seem to lack that kind of meekness when a devil is talking. So you feed your mind on South Park to prove your points eh? Perhaps that is why you accuse my wide spectrum knowledge of the Bible prophecies to be "blindness".

You are very sloppy jubal. I never challenged you on OT law.

You can't even separate me from Echoz. Just toss us down the old concentration camp chute and have us wearing the same color clothes eh? I was right about you. In 4 years posing as a Witness you didn't even grasp one of our main Bible understandings. You rushed through our training skipped off the outer air and went flying back into Space where you have remained.

You serve great dodge. Tell us about Daniel's interpretation of the dream, how it tells us how long a "Bible time" is and what it has to do with the outplaying of the Gentile Times. Or are you once again feigning ignorance hoping to trap me later?

Exactly how much do you imagine you're bothering me calling me a loon? You vibrate like a thin piece of brass and you resort to name-calling like a child.

You're exactly right hammywill. I have not tried to tell you how to live. However, the Bible is a book filled with prophecies of what the future holds in store for those who apply its moral principles (Rev. 21:3 & 4). I have written about such things, not to "tell you how to live" but to present reasons why you might want to align yourself with it. During these distressing times and the value of the dollar plummeting, it might also interest you to know Isiah wrote of the time when food will be free for everyone (book of Isaiah 55:1). These things will all be accomplished by a heaven-based kingdom gov't rule over the earth.

It is all very legal and logical.

Have you ever done surgery on yourself? I have. I've sewn my hands up with a needle and thread. Jesus allowed soldiers to catch him, knowing what the end of that would bring (nails through both hands and feet). Maybe that doesn't impress you but it does me. So if you want to ignore it go right ahead. You do your posting and we will do ours.

who's dictating to you, hammywill? I think I've been the only one to address you. you getting sucked into this bullshit pathos? think there's a side to take? Yeah there is. the one you and i started out with. hehe. Seriously. They keep demanding an answer or an admission of the most outrageous even blasphemous bullshit about a faith they nether care about nor believe in. TRULY inciteful! Jubal tries to excoriate anything from Mary to the missionary position to Joseph from behind doggie-style, if he could with BOTH Mary's! What would you do in light of that obvious blasphemous stupidity? Like when you first chimed in...TRUTH WILL OUT? If you'd like to join him to dispute the scriptures, you are certainly welcome too. I will not likely entertain you as I am in agreement with Gravity_Man that I have answered Jubal and co. like 8 times more over than necessary to defend the faith, and struggle to give at least a more PROPER and basic understanding of scripture which they neither choose to objectively evaluate (though they ask for it), refute (they find themselves without a leg to stand on...out on a limb getting sawed off so to speak! lol, nor acknowledge my responses for the weight they have (though they decry it with flippant remarks and queer displays of pure attitude). Basically, I'm greeted with complete and tergiversating denials. And you know I wasn't trying to knock homosexuality. You and I, I believe, stood merely for truth in science. The asses took it to mean I meant it merely as religious prejudice which is absurd. I'm like you. I don't really give a damn what they do on their own time. It's not my concern. But when they so egregiously persist in such blasphemous bullshit saying the scriptures are this jacked up shit--when you know so much better heh you gotta school the dumbasses and defend the faith just for what it is and no more! which whether you agree or not, or like it or not either really, I think I've done fairly well, at least, for any other readers that may come along in the future...and they've not replied to scriptures as where I challenged Jubal to justify that it was okay to fuq your mom or your sister even though things like that are also prohibited in scripture. I've shown them their obvious hypocrisy. and you'll see that most of these exchanges didn't even involve you though I hope you've found them entertaining, thought-provoking or perhaps somehow informative in someway. I know it seems like it gets too heated sometimes, but I appreciate the opportunity to provide a different and perhaps BETTER perspective to the scriptures than what you heard maligned and significantly dismembered and absolutely disfigured of jubal and co. And I gotta say I feel extra compelled to put these God-haters right because the simple truth is they don't want it, and nobody's forcing it. but they keep LYING and the Truth keeps getting a little deeper for them every time. So partially for their benefit I address such displays of stupidity, but even moreso because I know more people casually looking on do NOT speak their minds more publicly for fear of a spectacle such as these em effers might put on. Certainly intransigent assholes of this flamboyant caliber won't let them SPEAK severally or individually to be heard or entertained in any fashion even to hear simple wisdom that would say quietly: Honest respect for honest differences. *sigh* But they'd rather try to make it a taunting perhaps even intimidating circus show (for as much weakness as they hoped to find and did not) and to potentially create as much possible embarrassment as would make anybody with finer sensibilities cringe to immediately depart--i find that manipulation absolutely reprobate and fully backwards as to be like the girl who crawls out of the well in The Ring. Everyone has a right to disagree. Everyone, and you know what, that fuqnA includes me too. And like u, why should I apologize, when for the most part, I live the way I want to too.

The two of you are liars because what hammywill has said is absolutely true. You two are hear harping on your dogmas to hurt people in the GLBT community, to stifle honest and scientific discussion and polluting it with your mythological beliefs.

Echo you are so full of yourself, "defending the faith". You talk like you are some kind of self appointed expert and defender who speaks for all of Christianity.

Your ideas of so called "science" are merely religious ideas dressed up with "scientific lingo". You quote religious scholars who clearly have an agenda and are not true scientists.

Go ahead and comfort yourself with your words claiming to "not be against homosexuals" you are clearly a liar and anybody who has the patience to read through your rants can see you for who you really are.

more ad hominem, jubal? yeah i've put up with your ignorance and stupidity all this time JUST to exasperate and piss off my own ego, AND the reasons I gave above are not any more than vain imaginations to fiddle valuable time away. Glad you got it all down. And I'm glad you decided to try to make a "real" case somewhere else. The scientists that *I* speak of are in the business: Dr. Francis Collins heads the National Institutes of Health, right now, as we speak. He had the presitigious position of headed the Human Genome Project. He's just one of many thoughtful, intelligent, and accomplished believers active and at the top of their fields today. But no one says you have to like those facts just because they're true either! lol ;) It's truly self-evident all on it's own, anyway, with or without your precious imprimatur (and constant denial).

N.T. Scripture particularly, self-evidently, stands on its own, even to the common reader: The four canonical gospels were eyewitness accounts written at least 100 years earlier and were already in widespread use by the time your sychophant "gnostic" texts started sucking up to the powers that be. (Paul's "Phillipians" was written only like 20 years after Jesus's death and resurrection--which itself is also remarkably well and publicly documented). [As the Apostle Paul said to King Agrippa: "These things weren't done in a corner."] And though 'your' biased version of history won't show it, Christianity was STILL under sporadic persecution at that time...it wasn't that Christianity was resurrected into legend from a dead religion!! Dan Brown Da Vinci Code BULLSHIT people bought that shit as plausible in the rest of FICTIONAL crap too... Constantine picked Christianity because it was already the victor, despite everything used to stamp it out. People knew it was true because live eyewitnesses were around to vouch for it! Legend takes YEARS after someones death to take root in popular imaginations. No. There are too MANY very good reasons to believe the canonical gospels in particular are historically-reliable *first-hand* eyewitness and also "oral history" accounts, and not mere legend... I'll get into that if Jubal holds good on his promise to post his case in detail. Should be interesting... I'm sure.

The fact that he is a "believer" taints his science. If he is to be a "believer" he must seek to justify the claims that homosexuality is unnatural, not biological, not genetic, not psychological etc.

you are self-deluded Jubal. Keep it to yourself. Try at least.

It is a shame he wasted four years of his life faking being a Witness then all he sees now is the same as all he saw then. He just sees the empty half of the cup while completely missing the other cup that is running over the sides with Blessings from Jehovah.

You can't make it on book learning alone.

Jubal, stfu with your stupidity, PLEASE. You act like such the authoritarian on Christianity and every time you open your mouth, it's clear you're talking out your ass. Ever heard of Josephus? the secular historian? JESUS, IN THE FLESH, ON EARTH...the bible is one of THEE best most well-documented historical references available anywhere on the planet. You just don't like it.

And you appeal to nationalism in lieu of the absolute authority of the Bible? heh. I'm not israeli, I'm American. But first, I'm Christian. Thanks.

I have and it's been taken for a weakness. I'm not bitching though =P

A lot of stuff that we see with our eyes we think "it just happened that way". That isn't true. Like a few months ago in the News they told of a truck driver, in Texas I think it was, who drove his truck full interstate speed into the end car of stopped traffic. That did not "just happen".

We want to say it and we do, but we're wrong. The truck driver has to pass a physical to get his CDL license. Obviously he was pushed through the turnstile and given a Pass. I know because I was given that same pass many, many times. I drove thousands of miles exhausted, not having the energy or the metabolic rate to do so. And yep, I had a few accidents none that bad.

They did not "just happen" any more than world events happening now are just happening. Altering the nation's food supply to keep women having large breasts is a scam that seeks to hide our poor health and extremely deficient health care. We see women looking good and it fools our brain to thinking "well, things must not be that bad".

Things are that bad. 37,000,000 Americans are being exposed to diseases 10 times worse than Swine Flu => http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/08/22/1910245/Developing-Worlds-Parasites-D...

Now why would any country knowing these diseases are entering across and through its fallen borders keep its borders wide open? Certainly 37 million Americans suffering these vicious and spreading disease pandemics would rather not be suffering, so the answer has to be Door #2 => someone wants the cream off the milk no matter what the scum citizens has happening to them.

I don't stand alone at the firing squad wall. The rest of you just don't know it's pressing against your back side. And you think you're free eh? hehehehe Freedom is a fig newton of your imagination. Turn around please and look at the damn wall, the one you are standing in front of. Are you so misinformed you perhaps think that's a Freedom Wall?

Bullets are fired all the time and they go through us every day all day. They hit the young soldier, his young children who deserve to have him (or her) with him til he reaches adulthood. We are being riddled with bullets such as these and they aren't "just happening". These people the elite, the bourgeosie Illuminati, or whoever they call themselves next week, they piecemeal out little improvements just doled out enough to keep us from screaming so we keep supporting them and their lucrative ways.

However, they also have the power and they have the positions above us to make this interwoven mess keep rolling along. There isn't any way for any citizen peons to change it. We all live in a crucible where they pour hot wax on us and mold us into whatever they want. Screwing up the food supply to keep young girls developing fantastic looking breasts, now that was a good trick.

They also lowered the IQ in the general population by turning everything into a streaming YouTube video, lowering young people's ability to even spell. That was a very effective trick. It has prevented millions from understanding how my imitation energy engine systems work since I don't have whole studios of people like Industrial Light and Magic on my payroll so I'm completely knocked out of the ballpark: (http://www.ilm.com/)

Knocked out by Magic and Technicolor flash bulbs.

We scurry around like furry little animals and that's exactly what they think we are. That's all we are thanks to their brainwashing programme through the schools and also movies promoting atheistic beliefs so that people start acting like furry little stupid animals that have no Hope in God and no Hope in Nothing but whatever the Jail Guard puts on their plate and slides it under the door.

Our many sexual orientation issues were CAUSED TO HAPPEN just like Creation was caused to happen. That wall traps us and the trap is tightening. Genetically altered food ? Who knows what it will do to us so we will join those 37 million hopeless souls I reckon. Pray often & hard Jesus comes to help u

;) "The man who walks up in front of a firing squad wall every day for 6 1/2 years daring the government to shoot him must have some very good reason...You want it? Come and get it." :)~ lol bold as lions bold as lions ;)

the Gov't keeps control, that's for sure, Gravity_Man, and will effectively shelve or put the breaks on anything they are not in direct line to capitalize on. I'm sure the technology exists even to place tires on our vehicles that more indefinitely do not wear. How many times have we seen engines even running on water? Some guy had created a "simple" machine that would purify water for third-world nations, but of course, he wants a profit motive so he's looking at the U.N. which of course isn't going to do shit. There's a lot that could be better even just from a human-ability stand-point but the ethics and voodoo economics of the powers that be won't allow for it.

It's like the scientists who hoped to RETIRE saying the Human Genome Project was going to take years...only for the right people with the right motivation to come along and say bullshit. We think you're full of shit. ;) And we'll show you how it's done...

There's a number of companies who have developed acceptable engines apparently getting some ideas off of mine but of course nothing that's provable. Except for ONE. In Australia they built a giant solar enclosure using my idea of a turbine on top being turned by the massive amount of solar heat trapped by all the glass. Last I heard it was producing enough electricity to power 100,000 homes.

Wasn't real long after that, + the other two engines other Australians used, when their whole dang country caught on fire. God's wrath? Coincidence? Global Warming? Well, if they had done the right thing and cut me a piece so I could work up on my other systems we would be able to erase the 1st choice now wouldn't we?

A lot of people have forgotten the year 2003 but in 2003 the idea of an "air-powered engine" had been buried a long time since they had stopped Professor Hertzberg's compressed nitrogen engine of 1997. I found his engine while digging through the Internet, studied it with a passion til 3 days later I resurrected it, by the Grace of God during a 5 month severe Gout attack to be able to understand the mistakes Dr. Hertzberg had made and then to correct them.

To say God wasn't helping me while my blood vessels were being ripped & shredded inside by tiny razorblade sharp acid crystals all through my body and brain is LAUGHABLE.

But since then, since I made a powerhouse high horsepower tornado engine of supercold liquid air and superheated steam combination (TRUE HYBRID) engine these French and Tata Motors puny limp wrist air engines have made the Public doubt the power of my engine.

Brainwashing my friends is alive and well in the United States of America. I know a lot of people know nothing of all these things so if they choose to walk on into the gas chamber that just has to be the choice they make. Godspeed to those walking down the cattle chute ramps and God's breath in my sail on to August 31.

the much finer distinction you'd like to shit on is that they were repentant, jubal. They let go of spiritual hinderances, like lust and adultery and fornication and thieving and manipulating and LYING (quite your penchant and talent I'd say). You're a great candidate for Jesus to work with Jubal. You should get "real"...before it's too late, for you.

You reject God by your feeble imagination alone, Jubal? You're on your own. Not even evolution pretends to lie about everything, if only because if they did, they'd lose any semblance to plausibility to the kind of deceitfulness even you culture, and even if it's not quite plausible at all... You deceive and are quite willingly self-deceived Jubal. That's your problem with the scriptures. The sciptures speak of SEARED consciences jubal as with a "hot iron". You've sabotaged your safe point of no return... Sad. I'd still caution you that it appears you are on a one-way trip, if you still have any sincere interest in scripture as it speaks for itself, not as you deform it to your liking.

Are you sweating the details, Jubal, trying to find a way in? maybe this will increase your "faith" perhaps? To me it's still a wonder I wake up every morning and, somehow, still remember who I am and what I'd like to do...

It might help you to take a more respectable approach to God Himself, than to require Him to be pinned down like a butterfly in a case. It's not meet for you to feign such unwarranted pretentiousness, or for Him to put up with your ridiculous demands to do so, certainly.

"According to 1 Peter 3:20, there were only 8 humans on the Ark. They were Noah, his 3 sons and their four wives. Genesis 10 lists a total of 70 sons and grandsons of the three sons of Noah, and from these all the peoples of the Earth have descended. Japeth became the Patriarch of the European and Asian races, Ham was the original ancestor of the African people, and Shem fathered the Jewish and Arabic tribes.

"Because God gave each tribe a different language when He dispersed them from Mesopotamia in Genesis 11, they became isolated from one another and very little inter marriage took place. Because of this, the dominant characteristics of each group actually grew to be more pronounced over time. Experts say that within a few generations the major differences in physical appearance were pretty well established."

God does not answer to you any more than His better wisdom would mean to do so. He's not going to do a miracle for you Jubal without trust. He requires that first. You wanna ask Him "well were did you come from?" He tells you "I am that I am" He tells us in scripture His name is Ancient of Days. He has no limits. He is not trapped inside his creations. He is not confined to time and space. He is limitless.

And should you balk, I'll remind you we take one of His attributes for granted every day in science an mathematics. Infinity. Remember the symbol for it? Did you require to "see it" before you believed it then too Jubal? did you vehemently argue with your math teacher? Somehow I doubt it, because likely your selfishness wasn't on the line for you to sacrifice. We're all in the same boat Jubal... I'm not trying to point fingers at you but you keep coming as though I don't have a helmet of salvation, as though I don't have a shield of faith, or the sword which is the Word of God Himself were nothing to hurt you. Jesus Himself is called the Rock of offense...the Rock that makes men stumble. He didn't come to impose peace Jubal...He came to bring a sword. To divide. Once and for all... The invitation is still open but if you slam the door in His face like all of us have, we put ourselves in a questionable position. We need more humility in our own ignorance, wouldn't you say, as regards a Superior Being such God Himself? I would think so. As scriptures also say, Let God be true and every man a liar.

You can't just say "scientific fact:" before your little rant and expect people to just suddenly accept what you've said. The only truth there is is that we don't actually know yet. You're entitled to your opinions, as is everyone, and believe me I've read every word you've written on this topic so far. As I said earlier, I personally don't care whether it's a choice or not (what I should have added was "as long as it's not harming anyone." to put your responses about having sex with 15 year old nuns to rest).

You mentioned a few times that you can accept homosexuals for who they are, as well as disagreeing with their life choice. That would be fine, but you obviously can't. Coming out with statements such as "It's the truth. believe it." is not going to work in your favour in this argument. You shouldn't tell people what to believe (though it's your right to contradict yourself).

it is scientific fact sweetheart. that isn't a rant. I don't make shit like that up. Sincerely, I'm not so much against homosexuality--like other sins in the Bible, it surely exists, and whether i may like it or not isn't really the issue. In life I treat most all people, even homosexual, with integrity and honor and respect, despite disagreement. That courtesy isn't requited with assholes as you find on this post desperate for the public acceptance of lust. What a feat. Reminds me of Lot's day when DEMANDING homo's came to take advantage of placating, perhaps intimidated Christian. I tell you with a straight face, I'm not that Christian. But it doesn't surprise me that you either, do not take any "facts" from the article yourself either. Honestly if this is "evidence" you don't have a case. Read the first few comments from people who actually READ the article. The utter ignorance most display here is damning. It is however the very demand that I give up ANY disagreement (preferential, personal or religious) that I might have with it that i find perverted and truly sickening.

And I'm not alone, even if you make people afraid to say it. We'll come "out," too... Thanks California for giving some credence to other beliefs... Thanks.

First of all, I read the article. Did i take any facts from it? Yes, I did. The only fact that I claimed to be true in my previous statement that we don't actually know what determines sexuality yet, and to quote the article itself:

"The origins of human sexual orientation have yet to be adequately explained. Scientists argue theories from hormones and genetics to environment. "

I'm interested to know where you got your "scientific fact" from, considering scientists themselves seem to be still in an argument over the issue.

When you say "It is however the very demand that I give up ANY disagreement (preferential, personal or religious) that I might have with it that i find perverted and truly sickening." I do hope that you're not accusing ME of trying to take away your right to an opinion. If other people are trying to force you into their own way of thinking they can do so, but I, personally, don't agree with demanding that someone have the same opinions as myself. I said before that you're entitled to your opinions, as is everyone, but I don't think you should pass them off as fact.

As for the rest of my previous comment, it's all opinion. Like i said before, the only fact I claim to be true in there is that noone truly knows the origins of human sexuality yet, which I've managed to back up for you using a quote from the very article that started this discussion. None of it is "evidence", there's not even a "case". I'm just putting forward my point of view.

As a last point (still just opinion) I'll add that you're acting as if you're being attacked in this discussion. It's true that certain comments directed at you may have been a bit harsh, which is a shame because you DO have an interesting point of view, which i suppose I have to respect. However I don't think it's because people disagree with you to the extent of hate; I think it's because you speak in a very patronising manner: calling people "assholes", "sweetheart", or assuming for some reason that they haven't even read the article being discussed. You seem to act as if you are above the rest of us.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I simply wanted to join the discussion.

and feel free :) No you were not included in a lot of what goading i received. I'm sorry to give you a bad impression for my language. I appreciate your honesty and candor. Perhaps sweetheart was too 'familiar' though I thought it was effective to set you apart from the rest of the bullshit I've been confronting, I'm glad you were able to distinguish that 'sort of' ;) Thank you for your grace.

The source I cite is The Language of God, by Dr. Francis Collins. I've quoted it elsewhere here on current, but I'll quote it again for your kinder and more respectful benefit...let me find it. Thanks again! ;)

Watch Fearzen, go to this post...it's interesting ;)

people have some good points to make there too actually...

http://current.com/items/90635671_taxpayer-funded-sex-change-operations-likely-u...

but on the 2nd page if you scroll to the bottom (I have a couple of interesting pictures there lol >:)~ hehe but uh...) next to the last comment it's all in there. I broke it up into different replies to that same post so open it up to read what Francis Collins says about genetics and sexuality. The connection is relatively loose really...and someone made the strikingly apropos statement to say that it's proven the brain can rewire. I haven't really seen anything on that but I don't initial doubt it too much. Good? Good enough I hope. ;)

Since your such an expert on homosexuality, why don't you show us in the bible where Jesus himself speaks against homosexuality, or condemns it?

I will bet you cannot. You can find plenty of OT scrips or NT scrips , but no direct quotes from Jesus himself.

you are a profound hypocrit Jubal. You've already professed that you don't even believe Jesus is a historical figure, and now you wanna WORM your way into the fold, somehow accepting His advent as though it may be true, and now you want "acceptance"? It's like this jubal. In some places where they hunt monkeys, they use a tactic like this. the Deceiver puts the bait in a jar, the monkey finds it and wants it so he sticks his hand in and grabs the delicious fruit, when he finds the fruit is too large to escape the mouth of the jar, he's only consumed with the idea that he wants it...and so he STAYS there with his hand in the jar, REFUSING to let go, even to save his own life. The Hunters come and find the monkey desperately grabbing holding onto what's inside the jar, and of course, refusing to simply let go, the Hunters find it an easy job to pierce his heart and end his life...

The challenge with all sin is that we have to let go. Simple. But lust is self-delusionally blinding, isn't it, Jubal, even to what can be a self-defeating fault, in any sexuality.

Here's the Truth you challenge, Jubal. Jesus, Himself, preached against sexual immorality--in fact He said He came to FULFILL the law for us, not to abolish it, as you'd selfishly suggest, and if you're so curious, I suggest you read through the scriptures yourself. Hungry?

lol thats not fair jubal! talking about hitting below the belt lol although indeed, most pedophiles are MEN and pedophilia specifies a preference for children, not men or women as in heterosexuality and/or homosexuality.

they're a different animal who prey on specifically heterosexual offspring of young age. now I'm speculating but something happened to a majority of these offenders...in enough cases I would assume most were victims of sexual molestation or abuse themselves... In such cases I'm not even sure "chopping it off" has been effective. Maybe you could fill is us in since you seem to be quite knowledgable about who pedophiles are jubal. lol =P touche lol

"The things that people do to justify themselves is hilarious"

Indeed.

Indeed.

aren't you already? lmao

They've already shown in humans that there is a genetic and biological basis for queer sexuality.

and that why your statements make you a sensational liar animal'...people see through it...and you. It's silly you don't need to claim homosexuality based on genes. You already claim it as a lifestyle... you think genes will make you more credible than the sashay walk you probably twist around with wherever you go? hehe... no. likely not. not exactly like you think anyway. but who thinks quite like you except those who like what you do? not a lot. not a lot...certainly not the majority of honest americans who don't feel the need to pursue gene studies to justify heterosexuality. lol you guys look STUPID.

We share a frighteningly large number of our genes with worms, so it is an indicator that it may be true. Worms are hermaphroditic though amongst other things so the whole thing might still work in a very different way in mammals. This is why further research is needed. IMHO It's too early for an is or isn't yet based on this line of inquiry.

wow! thanks bombastinator...finally a voice of "some" resemblance to potentially quasi-reasonable dissent from across the aisle. *shrug* I can certainly appreciate that. your comment gets my vote.

That sounded judgmental and EXCLUSIONARY for other intelligent voices in the Gay and Lesbian community jubal lol I'm sure even she'd appreciate your "tolerance" jubal? hehe

What I meant by that comment is that Amy doesn't represent the entire gay community. Echoz has been gay bashing while saying that he loves us as individuals but not our lifestyle. He referred to Amy as though she were some kind of expert or ambassador who was handing out membership cards.

I was merely saying that I speak for myself and I don't represent the gay community, neither does she.

We all speak from our own experience, ideas, knowledge and beliefs.

LOL ;D well I'll say it again then LOL

That sounded judgmental and EXCLUSIONARY for other intelligent voices in the Gay and Lesbian community jubal lol I'm sure even she'd appreciate your "tolerance" jubal? hehe

I haven't said I loved you jubal! lol I say accept you as a human being. Is that wrong? You can keep your sexuality to yourself. I never would have asked you if you hadn't forced it on me =P lol you wanna be approved or "move on" lol well I approve of you jubal, your quite enjoyable, I just don't want equal respect for religious values. Do your thing if you want. I'm not judging you. I have my own lust to contend with which God does not view any differently from any other sexual sin He doesn't agree with.

We have a saying in the Church jubal. It goes like this: love the sinner, but hate the sin.

Maybe you could adopt it :) change it a little...: hate the Christianity, but gotta love the Christian. ;)

You have a wild imagination jubal but it serves you well to give you what you want, justification of your open lifestyle. However, it seems strange for a smart man to go into the grave one day proclaiming at the top of his lungs that his lifestyle that made him ill was a great thing.

You may as well be a sea captain explaining to his crew why his ramming the ship into the rocks was really a good development.

You might succeed in convincing some of these people who don't know the Bible's prophecies as thoroughly as I do that you're right, somehow, but you're proselytizing the wrong guy.

So all your delvings deeper into darkness has really been enlightenment eh? I think I've heard that song before. And you shame yourself for saying a lie. I have NEVER made a claim of being a "genius inventor". I've posted for going on 7 years about how my inventions use Physics as fuel instead of combustion, never claimed to be a genius.

You better learn better proselytizing. Using lies is hmm a bit like something the Devil would do. Are you seeking converts to the Devil jubal? It sure appears so.

Your claim of learning more about what the Bible teaches than Jehovah's Witnesses is interesting. I reckon you aren't aware that we now have two separate Watchtower magazines. The one for us goes deeper than the one offered to the public. They do go into some minute details.

hehehehe I seriously dispute your claimed extra knowledge. Hmm, good try though. I give you an A+ for effort. You do realize that when you say you quit everybody plus the Witnesses it really doesn't do much for your attempting to make converts. It only looks like you are making your own religion and I really doubt anyone wants another religion on the planet.

I have claimed many times jubal but not claims of my genius. My claim is that Jehovah's spirit has inspired me in this "time of the end" and "Last Days" to come out with these 100% zero pollution engine systems I have had. Much like Noah when the people and neighbors watched him building the ark in broad daylight, so have I shown how to make my engines WITHOUT PATENTING THEM.

They are the gift of God. I just did the writing. And the reason I was blessed to do it and not a world full of expert engineers is that God covered their eyes to them so He could have the engines coming from someone baptized in the faith.

I've written a page of very good links explaining many of my engine systems in great detail yet easy enough for a child to understand, as I've also been given a good gift of writing & explaining ability => www.newpath4.com/pdflistfor2008.htm#Galaxy_Class_Engines Jehovah took my dysfunctional thyroid ruined life and reached down to me and gave me a wonderful job to do, to show engines that totally do not pollute and will likely be used after Armageddon.

You've tried many religions. Come on back. Whoever taught you must not have done a thorough job of it. We are rising into the clouds, not literally but theologically. That man who wrote the book you quoted, he can't give you everlasting life.

First of all I never said I was starting my own religion.

Second, claiming that you have secret knowledge, be it about engines or the bible is claiming to be a genius.

Third, you have now revealed your self to be exactly what you are "a Jehovah's Witness".

You probably shouldn't be talking to me, you might bet disfellowhipped.

those are some great responses Gravity_Man! I wish you were a Christian! you seem to "echo" ;)~ lol what I'M thinking too...like you closely anticipate the very steps I might walk in, although I know not even you and I would likely completely agree doctrinally...And this brings me to segue into a shining example:

In Christianity there IS ONE unpardonable sin, and that is, blasphemy to the Holy Spirit. You should tread carefully jubal because you know these people you're listening to supposedly "debunking" hundreds of years of credible and unique Christianity are not the most reliable sources...wolves in sheeps clothing some might even dare to call them for such heretical views....and most especially for having gone through so many other religions! lol It's like schitzophrenic identity crises or something! lmao...although I'm sure each one has little part of the truth...I want the whole of it on one plate (not piece-mealed) and I guess it would be just fine if you would too, but, whatever, just don't have a "split" on us with all the conflicting spiritism and mantra from all those religions, jubal! please!!! lol ;) but really those are rather ahem "bold" claims against the authenticity of true Christianity as God has revealed himself to be in scripture, and also claims that I fear would simply not even face the light of expert scholarly scrutiny (rather desperately looking for a rock to hide under)...just mho (and that h is for Honest, like: Don't repeat that shit unless you really believe it jubal...my kind advice...

Also what is the point of making engines that fly to distant galaxies, if "mankind is going to be restored to the Garden of Eden."

You think Jehovah is going to allow you to fly away from here?

I know myself, and nothing you can say is going to change that knowledge. I am happy and free and I do not need anything created by human beings to define who and what the God of Love is for me. Jesus came to reveal the truth, but those in charge rejected the truth.

That truth he revealed very clearly in what was recorded in the book of John Chapter 8. Read it.

Who was Jesus talking to? (Rhetorical question) He was talking to the Pharisees; the Jewish leaders who upheld the law of Moses. What did he say to them?

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Who was it that issued a death sentence in the Garden of Eden? Hmmm? Jehovah, that's who. Were Adam and Eve executed? NO! They were thrown out of the Garden when they learned the truth. Who told them that truth? The serpent told them the truth. "You will not positively die. For Jehovah knows that once you eat of that fruit you will become just like him, knowing good and evil." In other words, you will discover that he is a liar and a coward.

You should seriously ponder what I am telling you. i am not proselytizing you. That is what JW's do, going door to door, and standing on street corners selling magazines and books for the Watchtower bible and tract society.

If you want to remain in the darkness, the prison that the Society has created for your mind to dwell, go on, be my guest. It doesn't matter. Regardless of what you believe you will still end up in Sheol.

Secret knowledge? That's rich. No. I've been able to define solar system motion in ways others have not. It isn't that I possess "secret knowledge" but that they were deliberately kept blinded to it from the godlessness of their heart Jehovah kept them from understanding.

I'm not special jubal they made themselves unspecial.

As for my now being ratted out as a Witness whew you are one funny guy. Anyone who has followed my posts knew I was a Witness months ago. I was straightforward and upfront with everyone on Current.com from the beginning. Please man, stop while you're ahead. Your jabs are tickling me.

Let's see jubal. You say I'm locked insde a Jehovah's Witness prison eh? Well friend the Bible says we are to inherit the earth from start to finish. Jesus repeated it at Matthew 5:5 also. "the Earth" refers to all that is physical jubal, the stars and their planets are all to belong to true Christians.

You are reading old literature. You aren't just turning your back on everlasting life on this planet man. You're turning your back on a glorious universe. What, so you can have the temporary enjoyment of sounding professor-like putting me down? hahahaha

You do appear to be lost in the forest. Digging your way through the swamp and muck just so you don';t have to admit the sin your lifestyle brought upon you, not Jehovah and not even the Devil or a serpent. You did it all by yourself the day you stopped attending Meetings at the Kingdom Hall to go pursuing your new faith and grabbing a man's behind under the sheets.

Gravity Man said: "That man who wrote the book you quoted, he can't give you everlasting life."

I am not expecting him to.

But neither can a being who merely bends light, but does not create light. Neither can a being who speaks from the darkness to his people on Mount Sinai, or demands that a temple built by Solomon provide him with an extremely dark place to reside and issue commands and be ministered to by priests. There were only candles allowed in that inner sanctuary. Solomon intended on building him a temple full of light and he insisted on a temple that kept him in the darkness and behind a curtain. Why would a god of light demand such things?

Jesus was right on the money in Chapter 8 of John. He defended the prostitute and he told the Jewish leaders who their real father was; the devil.

I am not the one who is confused here. I have seen the light. The light and the darkness cannot coexist because the darkness flees in the presence of the light.

@ echoz, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attempting to merge a murderous, vindictive, jealous, bloodthirsty, desert wanna be god, with the loving heavenly father that Jesus came to reveal. There is no comparison.

Jehovah is not the Heavenly father of Jesus. The evidence is very clear. If we used the bible as the only source of knowledge, you would loose in court and I would prevail with identifying who the Old Testament bible god really is.

If you truly want to see the evidence, then check out the book. If you are so resolute in your beliefs, or "standing on the rock" as the saying goes, then why would you be afraid of checking out what the bible has to say about who Jehovah is? hmmm

Or are you just parroting thousands of years of Dogma?

Trying to get me off your back by bringing in disfellowshipping eh? That's a desperation move jubal. No, actually I understand how lost you are so much of my posting hasn't been for you. It's the others who read my posts who maybe haven't ever been told that "inheriting the Earth" includes the rest of the universe.

I assure you the Almighty knows I am not choosing to spend time with you socially.

@ gravity man, whose tickling who here? "sounding so professor like in putting me down" why thank you for the compliment.

What I do in my sheets is my business. I haven't told you what you can do in your sheets, have I?

But you and Echoz see an article that validates homosexuality and you jump all over that like flies on a honey bowl left in the sun with your biblical rhetoric.

Truly it is Echoz who tries to sound "professor like" when he is gay bashing.

Anyways, I am done talking to you both about this issue because, like water and oil, we don't mix.

However, when it comes to your engine designs, if they do what you claim they can do, then you are a genius, whether or not the spirit of Jehovah inspired you.

You are free to do whatever you want in your sheets, as I am free to do whatever I want in mine. But I will always defend my community from attacks from those who cannot live and let live.

there is such a thing as heretical texts jubal. Don't deny it....the bible explicitly warns us about it.. "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ." Colossians 2:8... the problem is, as spiritual as you claim to be yourself in knowing the exclusive truth jubal, you cater to carnality. Meanwhile the 10 commandments and Christianity have developed into the modern world.

Jubal you bring to mind the scripture that says:

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant"

AND I should not fail to add that Jesus HIMSELF has told us in scripture "NO ONE comes to the Father, but by Me." He alone is the Way the Truth and the Life. That's not dogma. It's a simple doctrine central to much Christianity. From the Lord God Himself. but He's made you absolutely free to disagree with him at your own peril... The day is appointed for ALL of us and sexuality isn't going to divide not any of us jubal, We'll all either "pass or fail." and for ETERNITY. THAT's the truth I believe. *shrug* Why else would we WANT to live forever jubal? Only the real God of the bible--not this shit you guys intentionally misrepresent him to be--has the power to instill survival instincts AND wisdom in all of us...

I've seen zeitgeist, and even before it, I'd seen various flavors of this "cultural transposition" argument, which many scholars brighter than I hold specious. (and maybe I'll check this video out tomorrow jubal...). the thing is...there's no consensus for the off-the-wall opinions you hold, and that doesn't automatically discredit them but the arguments aren't new at all. and neither do you account for the reality of heresies. There are examples in scripture. And there is in fact, OVERWHELMING evidence that Jesus was in fact a very real and historical person. There is no doubt. To deny it borders on the absurd. We've based our whole concept of time basically on the fact of his life and death..."B.C." "A.D." and his resurrection also is documented. Historically you have a huge mountain to climb there. So I'd expect a BIG story with bigger claims to go with it...

I am sorry to hear of...what czetheday mentioned jubal. I am... We certainly live in a cursed world jubal. It is less than perfect. And we all know it, though I take it for more reason to pick up faith which I hope you'll consider too...even as I plan to be courteous and diligent to check out the resources you cite. God bless jubal...God bless even if you don't believe in my God.

I don't want to intrude on your finely balanced theological arguments, but one of the expressions I noticed popping up over and over is one that has long "stuck in my craw." It is this notion that "we" (attaching whatever qualifications or conditions you believe the Bible has placed on being or becoming a member of this particular "we" -- are to "inherit" the Earth.

Assuming we have the good fortune to be given the three score and ten years among the living of this world...and considering that I have already used TWO score and ten...that inheritance had better hurry right along, or it is going to be of limited value. If we are to inherit it AFTER death in this life...well, of what particular value is a physically accessible earth to my disembodied soul? Hey, don't freak out...I'm just ASKING....

First off I have watched the entire length of the Zeitgeist movie (plus some many interviews elsewhere recorded on YouTube with a talk show host concerning their ideas). The movie makes one glaring mistake when it faults God for calling Moses a name that had been used in various previous variations. One was Mises. God didn't name Moses the daughter of Pharoah did so she followed Egyptian choices. So right off the bat I recognized these people have an agenda and will twist anything in the Bible that suits their purpose but, I finished watching the Zeitgeist movie anyway and it turned out to be rather educational.

Cztheday, the first man and first woman sentient beings referred to as Adam & Eve in Genesis, which you know of course, they were made of earth materials plus water so the Douay says they were made of mud. They were made of the earth for an eternity as earth beings. They were supposed to inherit the earth from the beginning.

The question to ask is has that changed? At Matthew 5:5 Jesus re-stated that hope found at Psalms 37:11. Later after Jesus' death & departure the promise is yet again restated at Revelation 21:3 & 4 ("and he will wipe out every tear from their eyes and death will be no more"). Can tears be wiped from angelic eyes when they aren't physical beings and don't have eyes?

The hope and the promise of everlasting life on earth has never been rescinded; instead it has been repeated from the start of Genesis to the end of the Bible. Jubal said he had been a JW for 4 years and yet here he said {paraphrased} he didn't care for the idea of being restricted to this Earth.

As you well know from your extensive Bible reading the term "earth" is used in many different ways. For instance at 2 Peter 3 vs 7 many people will take that to mean the literal planet Earth is to be consumed in fire and destroyed. That can't be true because it conflicts with Ecclesiastes 1 vs 4 that says the earth will stand to time indefinite ("abideth forever" KJV) and further at Isaiah 45 vs 18 it tells us there the earth will ALWAYS be inhabited.

Who will inhabit the earth? The Meek who seek to please God. Jesus has promised it. The earth is ours => Psalm 115:16 but it comes with a restriction and a requirement for everlasting life that we do better than Adam did => Psalm 37:29 "the righteous will possess the earth". These are not mere flowery prose they are promises from God.

It does not take a large leap of extrapolation to expect that not only was the earth not created for nothing to remain uninhabited any more than this planet so the universe of Creation is our future. The "earth" that is to be destroyed is men made from the earth who choose to do Adam's lifestyle and his choices.

Just like during the "flood of Noah's day", the physical planet survives while people who do not wish to live under the heaven-based rule of God's Kingdom government perish, the elements making up their body returning to the ground.

When this comes to an end at the end of Jesus' "thousand year reign" Jesus will present to his Father a perfected mankind as was intended from the beginning. Everything Satan caused will have been reversed. No person deserving of life everlasting will be forgotten. Satan will be finished, dead.

You might find it interesting to know (that is, if you don't, but I'll include it for others) that there is a difference between everlasting life and immortality. Adam and Eve were not offered immortal life, only everlasting which is conditional on continued obedience to righteous standards (Psalm 37:29 again).

Jubal showed me that his 4 year JW sampling was an incomplete training. Jesus in his parable said some seeds would sprout fast then die. The roots didn't have time to sink into full Bible truth... so what he quit wasn't what we believe. He quit what he thought we believed. In other words he fell for the widespread malady of our time => he cherry picked til he found something he didn't understand, = he wanted to quit.

Jesus stated also that a recreation is coming see Matthew 28:19 ("regeneration" KJV). That's exactly the point! RE-Creation is coming, a system restart. All people of all Races are extended the hope of becoming the physical equivalent of Adam and Eve.

And you were exactly correct too, that if it doesn't come soon this planet -without Kingdom intervention to bring it under control- has intentions of shaking apart.

When will these things happen, in our lifetime? This page has some answers to that => http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060715/article_02.htm

Perhaps cztheday, you meant more specifically in your case if you were to pass on, so maybe I overshot the runway. My apologies. Being dead is the opposite of being alive. The penalty of inheriting a flawed physical condition as we all have is a result of Adam's sin more than Eve's being tricked (deceived). The apostle Paul addressed the situation when he wrote at Romans 6:7 => "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin".

So if you die you would have legally satisfied the result of sin and are then having the hope to be raised back to life. The resurrection will begin following some time after Armageddon but all the dead will not be raised at one time. That would overwhelm those who survived Armageddon. No, the resurrection will happen in an orderly fashion. The resurrection will be a reversal of the deaths Satan caused, parents coming back after their children.

you can't help LIARS Gravity_Man. THIS ARTICLE IN NO WAY JUSTIFIES HOMOSEXUALITY but when you have an addiction to your sex that fuqtup and you're so insecure with your own naturalized perversions such that everyone else simply unequivocally MUST adopt with near-absolute agreement merely to exalt and justify it even to yourself, and, not stopping there, you become so intolerant that you malign and LIE and cheat to stigmatize other groups as merely prejudicial, who by legal and constitutional right RELIGIOUSLY differ with your desperation and utterly indefensible bullshit...well, take it from me who's got no personal interest to convert you, in fact do go to hell for all i care, please feel free, I'll be happier to represent even MY OWN faith for what it actually is and not requiring your fuqtup "socializing" iconoclastic assessments, so that again, you can flaunt your sex at anyone you so choose...heh: you're fuqt in the brain. And then you all pretend to wonder why more people find you so despicable. It's largely in NO WAY because of your sexuality, it's the LENGTHS your sick minds go to, to pretend to defend it with SHIT like this article, that makes you very very very pathetic. Ironic isn't it. I assure U it is. And likewise, HIV or not, I don't give a fuq if you disagree. Unlike you, I'm not requiring your agreement. That's the difference between us. Remember that.

Anyone remember when AIDs took center stage in the 80s and 90s? And gays were getting knocked off like flies for all their promiscuity and they knew they were in trouble, not from Christians... It is God who is not mocked. You'll find that out the hard way I guess.

y'know it's funny because when I look at fundamentalist muslims who I know I'm likely to disagree with at some level, I know I have to respect their beliefs, and not to condone them (you idiots), not to extol them as if we had no disagreement (you Idiots), not to vet them by deceitful placation (you IDIOTS)...I don't go "demand acceptance" from them or disagreed, tell them "move on" from any of those who I know disagree with life in the U.S. but that is exactly what you plan to do, and in fact do. It's ridiculously assinine the haughty attitudes you fags take like one big cheerleading squad...

your fuqtup politics for homosexuality, the fruits of which are killing you now, some people would say is deserved for your stupidity for disrespects to the sexuality Christianity does condone, they'd say it starkly resembles the imperialistic aspirations of U.S. foreign policy and the tactics they use. You all act like you're hitmen for the homo' faith. "Be proud, be a hero! Be a FAG!..and don't let the Truth stand in your way!" Go argue with REAL extremists jubal, the kind that don't need your repeated taunts to give you the "gay-bashing" you've been crying for cuz that's all you really have is the appearance of things, right? You can't get any deeper than that. Go argue with real extremists jubal who are the kinds of people who are sincerely radically intolerable and would just as soon torture and maim your dumbass for all your self-professed pride, than look at you. And then try hard to realize a real difference between those extremists and the kinder hand of Christianity in life. cuz if Christianity was as deceitful as you make of it, you'd likely have already had your head chopped off asshole...

I don't think of it that way as me trying to convert heathen homosexuals but like ya say, they will tend to take my words and make it into a me vs them argument. My intent is only to tell them a fuller extent of what they are putting in jeopardy of losing.

They when they still decide to choose a different lifestyle at least they do so in knowledge of what they stand to lose. As fellow humans they deserve to know what the Bible really teaches not the voodoo stuff they have grown up hearing. Heaven is to them the ultimate voodoo, poof, magic clouds.

We all have a great inheritance if we seize hold of it. The hope of heaven is also real but only for the saints who will rule alongside with Christ Jesus, and that means a majority of people will have the earthly hope as Adam had. Revelation Chapter 20 is one of many Bible passages that defines the hope of the saints and everybody ain't a saint.

That's why the Bible very specifically mentions two resurrections.

Here you go, to all of you reading this tangent of the main thread. These religious fanatics get pissed because they fail to argue the logic against their beliefs, so they resort to insult and injury, attacking my HIV status, telling me that I deserved what I got because, of course, since I am defending the gay community from their religious judgments and pronouncements derived from their sacred polluted text, assume that they know what sex acts I may or may not have performed to become infected with HIV. How do they know that I didn't get it from a blood transfusion? How do they know that I didn't get it through a infected needle in a hospital?

They don't know, they assume. And you can read for your selves their vile pronouncements attempting to crush my spirit or destroy me with their hollow words and insinuations.

Do I really give a damn what they think? Do I need their approval? Absolutely not.

Judge for yourselves based on the interaction. I may have said some harsh things myself, but I never attacked them personally, because of their disabilities. You all may have read about Gravity Man's long history of health problems, which he claims were caused by sinister forces in the government. Why would they target him?

He has to invent a dellusion of being a genius inventor, inspired of god to create galactic cruising engines, in order to elevate his self esteem to a tolerable level, while at the same time provides excuses about his health interfering with getting his inventions to market, or conveniently that they are being saved for after Armageddon. We haven't seen anything to prove his claims. We are supposed to accept them on faith, much like you have to do with the bible. Nothing can be proved, it all has to be swallowed like the pill in the Matrix.

The other religious fanatic Echoz is far worse than Gravity Man in his manner. Another message that I got from him stated something to the effect that he planned on being congenial or polite, I forget the exact word he used, and here just a few posts up, pulls out his words meant to cut me deeply like a serial killer might cut his victim. Believe me his words are merely bad breath I can easily brush away.

But here you see the true nature of those who claim to love you and are seeking to save your mortal souls. If you challenge their reality, just like Morpheus said in the movie The Matrix, they will do just about anything to protect their delusion.

Do you know that Echoz even blessed me in that message that has mysteriously disappeared, and here he curses me telling me that extremists worse than him would have "tortured" my dumb ass.

One final thing, Gravity Man.

God didn't name Mises. What the film was showing was that mythology has been repeated throughout recorded history, simply repackaged to suit the age and culture it is in.

It demonstrates, and yes there is indisputable evidence on the walls of the temple of Luxor, that Judeo/Christianity was lifted directly from Egyptian beliefs. The descendants of Jacob, couldn't have lived as strangers in a strange land for a close to 430 years and not absorb their culture. IS RA EL is a hybrid combination of three words....ISIS RA and EL a trinity of Gods. Search your scriptures and find when that name was first used and you will find that it was when Jacob wrestled with the Angel.

But the true linguistic ethnographic origin is still somewhat of a mystery.

Jubal , I have been following this thread with fascination and some sadness . I am sorry to hear of your illness and hardships . You bear them with grace , and an open heart which is as much as can be said of anyone .

Artemis, thank you for your kindness. I admit that i have been very incindiary with these two folks here, but I felt compelled to deal harshly with them becasue of their lack of real compassion and forgiveness. It seems to me they have assumed the responsibility to judge others without taking the beams from their own eyes. Judge not lest you be judged.

Please don't be sad because of my disability, take courage and always remember, Love isn't just for one day. It is a force that is eternal and expanding. I am a channel for that love and that is the whole purpose of my life today. To live in the gratittude that after having lived with this virus since childhood, I am still here. That is a blessing beyond mearsure. Everyday of my life I begin on my knees giving thanks for one more day of life and another chance to bring happiness to those who love me unconditionally.

That is the love I have in my heart, unconditional. But it also doesn't stop me from speaking my mind or the deeper truths I have learned.

jubal... Artemis and other posters will only fully appreciate your LOVE after reading my two posts on the following page => http://current.com/items/90748587_scientific-experiment-suggests-that-sexual-ori... and hmm, isn't it interesting how you did your best to tear me down for using illnesses while you just invoked your own.

hahahaha jubal, you are a joke. You want to engage me in an illness match? My Immune System was rendered dysfunctional by doctors telling Mom it was OK to smoke and drink alcohol while pregnant with me. You lose buddy-ro. I've been run over by more chariot wheels than your butt has ever seen on the highway. I get good laughs from you as you continue struggling in quicksand to slime me in order to further your self-defense.

Note please that I am NOT laughing at your illness condition. I am not awed by you jubal. I've fought off Lyme's Disease spirocheates twice so far. They remain dormant inside you once you've had it and they return whenever some cold weakens ya down, which happens to me often since my Immune System fails to fight them properly. I have fought with the devils too jubal and I fight with them continuously now just as you do.

God blessed me to survive cancer in August 2006 and I did my best to tell others with a national News Release on August 31 2007 => www.prleap.com/pr/91843 followed last year by SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO INCREASE PEOPLE"S HEALTH AND FIGHT OFF CANCERS THEMSELVES => http://tinyurl.com/6k2wkd

which if you recall in our earlier e-mails (you now partially quote from to slime me) I shared my health instructions with you jubal to help you in your struggle with illness.

You repay me in a rather strange way jubal and people see you for what you are doing. My Christian conscience is clean towards you jubal. I stretched out my hands and open arms to you giving you help and you drew a sword against me.

So much for your "love".

jubal, you can get away with twisting the Bible among these people who grew up being brainwashed against the Bible in their schools and school books. You wouldn't last a minute with someone who knows it. Echoz and I are not real life acquaintances you would like to infer as it suits your purposes. He posts and I post. We overlap sometimes but we aren't cut from the same church cloth either. I admire his ability to refute the garbage you keep writing and admire his energy to keep it up. You sir are committing an evil act to keep typing out trash the Bible does not contain.

You infect these people with falsehoods. You imitate the Devil because he twisted scripture the same way in his earthly confrontation with Jesus, attempting to get our Lord to take the kingdom rule then instead of waiting til our day.

You are spinning a false web why? What does it help you a dying man to try and lead these people down a road of Bible ignorance? You are no one's friend here when you do that. And quite frankly you will not succeed in STOPPING EVEN ONE PERSON from learning the Truth that hungers for it and recognizes their spiritual need is not being supplied by you. But they will find plenty on this link =>

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20060715/article_02.htm

I will supply an answer to one of your falsehoods, a common one the other posters have heard many times (that you know will therefore resonate around in their brain so you use their programming as a weapon)... this charge about God only being a "tribal God of war". Over the span of human history God was showing us various aspects of His personality, his demand for Justice and righteousness. He told Moses very plainly that he called himself the "I AM"... which means "I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE" (Exodus 3:14). For you to extract a part of His revealed personality is evil and is the same trick Satan used against Jesus (Psalm 91:12 = Matthew 4:6).

People should mark you jubal and stay clear of whatever you write if they seek God's Blessings through his Kingdom government.

I don't have to be a believe cut from either Echoz's or Gravit Man's cloths to have studied and know the scriptures. I know them very well and I stand by my challenge to you both.

Show me quotes of Jesus saying anything against homosexuality.

The other challenge is the identity of Jehovah. I have all the scriptures neatly typed up along with the arguments, but obviously both of you are fanatical in your own ways that you would never be up to the challenge of arguing scriptures, because you will loose.

Say whatever you want about me twisting and working for the devil. I think the readers are smart enough to see where the real love is and where the delusion of love is.

I live a life of love and compassion, you two live lives full of fear and judgment of things you have been taught. Neither of you has an ounce of critical thinking experience, you are parrots and monkey and gerbils repeating and acting out things you have been told to memorize.

No matter how many times you try to do it, you cannot create love out of fear and condemnation.

I will continue, no matter what, whenever either of you post on a thread relating to homosexuality to be there to challenge your posts and to refute the garbage that you post and spread. You want to instill fear in the GLBT community. You haven't bothered to even ask me anything about who I am, you assume and make statements that betray your intolerance, your utter devoid of love, and your religious fanaticism and IMHO - insanity. It is the two of you who are laughable and maniacal; not me.

"What hetero males who are biased against homo males all need."

you know what, unfortunately everywhere you go in life jubal, you will find for a fact that everyone on the planet has bias, and that might be wishfully yours "up there" eh? jubal? ;) hehe

seriously though, the word "unbiased" IS A MISNOMER. Don't abuse it. Thank you.

Everyone is biased, I get that. I am biased toward sexual liberty, you have made clear that you are not.

i generally respect your opinions, jubal. But this post is certainly specious in its premise and title. It's not the place to stake your claim, imho. You're obviously free to wallow in the puerile however. And like I say...I don't wanna hold anybody back from their sex, god forbid, I'd likely have better luck "demanding" (heh) a coke whore's last line...but nobody should be made to agree with it because some are insecure of what others' friendly, even religious, but OBVIOUSLY differing opinions are. I don't beg sexual acceptance of my sexuality, nor require it of anyone, unless she interestingly looks like a ring girl ;)~ and neither do you, jubal.

This cracked me up. Thanks Jubal!

Well I am demanding that if someone doesn't approve of my sexual orientation they can simply move on. I didn't come on this thread to bash you and your hetero man whore tendencies. I am sure that your vision of heaven is much like that of radical Islamic martyrs, 50 virgins when you get to heaven or some such nonsense.

Jesus said that there would be no marriage in heaven, so what does that mean?

It means heaven is going to be one big giant bi sexual fuck fest.

You talk about puerile, puerile is going gaga over "ring" girls. Having all that vaginal fluid and French perfume all over you. Yuk.

Once was enough for me when I came through the birth canal.

Hmmm. I gather that the fact that I am pushing 50 and don't know what a "ring" girl is is cause for some kind of embarassment at my own naivite? Nonetheless, something tells me I wouldn't be doing myself any favors by looking it up.

Jubal, smokin' post...really challenged me to THINK for a change (I can tell from the wisps of smoke curling up around my ears...and that grinding noise tells me that a few of the gears up there are missing a few teeth.

I am so sorry to hear of your HIV positive status. That is a heavy, heavy load...no way around it. You seem to be doing a remarkable job of keeping your head straight, considering the stress of your circumstances. So congratulations on your ability to keep moving forward and not giving into bitterness or frustration.

I was gratified to see an article earlier today announcing that my religious faith, Lutherans, will be formally recognizing the membership of "practicing" (what, until they get it just right?) homosexuals. On the one hand, it is about darned time...on the other, I hope this helps break loose yet another antiquated, unhelpful prejudice...one brick at a time..

If Jesus really said it jubal, why should you even care? you pretentious mferz always wanna try to preach wtf you don't really understand. you're minds ARE darkened from acknowledging God. you guys are prophecy fulfilled in the most ironic way I can witness. Many murderers, rapists, child molesters probably too, "whores" as you say jubal (incidentally the UFC ring girls are NOT whores jack, but maybe the women you associate with are jubal i have no doubt with the stories you recount) have more honest humility before God for their deserving sins than most of you do...Honestly before God I'm not going to go before Him and say, Well I was better than a homosexual. That is sure damnation. It doesn't work that way, though your sciolism regarding scriptures is certainly already clear to me.

and i'll point out another of your chronic ignorant fallacies: when you say "i demand...if you don't approve..." you're making it an APPROVAL issue and that pisses me the fuq off. I don't make my acceptance to you based on sexuality! I dn't worry that anyone is going to find a problem with the size type or look of women that I like! but fortunately, the illogical you stress works both ways my friend: "move on." as you said jubal. and if tenure or seniority count? you're in big trouble mr. birth canal vagina-phobe! lol

Please don't try to explain things you haven't even experienced yourself with irrational beliefs. Thanks.

ad hominem. but do you think you're possessed, or in a closet, I wonder? ;) just kidding...OF COURSE. And of course you can be respectful about others' sexuality, even religiously restrained as well, couldn't you, animalia... You ever heard of Rodney Dangerfield?

I'm not in the closet. I am fully open for my love of people of all shapes, sizes, colors, and orientations.

I can be respectful of others' sexuality and am. What I am not respectful of is blind ignorance and religion fueled hatred from people like you who queer bash every chance they get and then continue to do it over and over again. It's pretty sickening.

If God exists, God made queers. He also said not to judge. So, if you read your own book once in a while you might want to shut up ;-)

thank you animalia! Everything I've wanted to say to echoz after reading all the comments so far on this thread...

p.s. good to see you again!

ad hominem, liar. I don't hate you. Nor do I hate homosexuals. I don't treat homo's as less than people, unless they give me fuqn dumbass grief like some. No, honestly, I don't hate you. I disagree with you. There's a difference. And *I* have a right, if you be honest about it. But you're not. Your sexual respects mean more to you than anything else it seems. Move to Holland. Enjoy life. However you want. But don't fault me for living mine the way I know to as well. It's possible that we can simply respectfully disagree. I usually call it Respect for Honest Differences, and that damn well includes relgious as well. Thank you. This nation was founded on religious freedom, remember that in school? or were you more concerned with iconoclastic activism then too to pay any attention to history? You know what, "yes we CAN!" learn to simply and respectfully disagree. Thanks again.

Echoz you are guilty of the same things you are accusing animal of. You come here and spout your intellectual pseudo religious psychobabble and when someone disagrees you, you lecture them about tolerance. Good Grief. If that isn't a case of the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is.

How am I a liar for posting a scientific study?

Amen!

you're thinking about it like a typical american consumer. It's not something that's pulled off a shelf, unless you're experimenting as an adult. You're examples are children however, and if anyone is potentially influenced by questionable environments and/or "petting uncles", it is children. I'm sure there are studies that correlate at least some of these children with later deviancy in life, to promiscuity, etc. You may not be privy to the fact of these corrupting experiences, in the large majority of cases fun_size. It was the atheist Marquis de Sade, who wrote of the deflowering of a 15-year old nun who discovered much sex...after which, i'm sure she wasn't going back to the convent.

Experiences shape sexuality. Sexuality has more twists and turns than many of you seem to want to acknowledge for this supposedly unchallengable "straight" highway to homosexuality.

"Experiences shape sexuality. Sexuality has more twists and turns than many of you seem to want to acknowledge for this supposedly unchallengable "straight" highway to homosexuality."

...so you agree with me that sexuality is not a choice then.

fun_size, I believe that you can reprobately condition human sexuality to tune to things more grotesque than even you want to possibly imagine. I saw a story here on current where a guy was busted fucking his car in the gas tank, I guess... lol Who was gonna stand up for his sexuality??? lmao you? lol why would anyone do such a "sexual" thing fun_size? what about voyeurism like that, isn't that part of human sexual expression? perhaps in the same way that women love to be admired and that's okay with you? Dutch homo's now do it on a public park bench in full view, if they want to. What do you think about that? Is that alright? Good values? Gay Groups in San Francisco have lobbied for similar things, as in public restrooms using "consenting adults" "turn a blind eye" "arguments". It's no other "sexuality" that pushes politically for pathological shit like that im'h'o but homo's. And even the porn and prostitution industry has the decency to get a room...

I generally agree with you Fearzan, though the article itself doesn't make the claim the title of this post does. So who's manipulating who here, really? Hmmm. They wanna be what they wanna be? Fine. Me too! But where do you draw the line? I gave the example of Marquis de Sade making good with a 15-year-old nun. Is that okay? Who remembers Mary Latourna (sp?) or Rob Lowe? Should those people be in jail because of THEIR sexuality they way they like it done? and with whom? What of bestiality? Certainly if a man or a woman can develop an emotional connection to a animal that runs quite deep...who's to say it doesn't "work" with a donkey? or a horse? or literally, a pig? Who are WE to discriminate against anyone?

And I'm sorry. Homosexuality is not on exclusive par with heterosexuality. I'm sick of hearing that shit. WE PROCREATE. NATURALLY. And that's WHY the majority of you genetic wannabe homo's are here now. I accept you as you are. You don't need to lie and distort the science to mean what it never intended. If I could THAT's what I'd make stop. Leave science unmolested. Stop fondling! Let the chips fall where they may. Truth will out. And you don't deserve respect because your homosexual, you deserve it because your human. Thank you.

Sex is not just for procreation.

are you the only one making that assertion then jubal? figures. again, you're here for a reason jubal, and they simply call it procreation, you understand. your shoes are untied...and you fly is open jubal. tsk...

I think its a safe assumption that you are religious echoz so let me ask you this question: if sex is just for procreation as you say then why did God make it so unbelievably fun?

God doesn't intend for sex not to be fun as you allege. He wanted lots and lots of children. But He specifies the best ways to do that require we use what God made us most differently from every living creature around us, that namely being our minds, and the exercise of it in Wisdom and respect to Himself. and we all know sex for anybody these days has very real consequences that many more than jubal can attest to. Here's my testament to jubal's sexual freedom: I had an uncle who passed away because of AIDs. He wasn't homosexual, but he screwed around a lot...I lived with him for a while I was on internship...

Do you actually agree with the statement: '"I had no choice" is the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card' ?

To quote you earlier:
'what do I think "makes" (heh) me heterosexual? Well God for one.'

Is the statement "I had no choice" any worse than "God made me this way" ?

I'm glad you caught that "makes" where einstein missed it...I was merely indulging the foolishness some make of their sexuality, although I fail to more directly express the regret in dishonesty constantly found in alleged "support" of homosexuality. Let the chips fall where they may in science. I'm not afraid of homosexuals. I don't despise them. I just don't feel that I should have to accept anybody, merely because they espouse sexuality as some sort of narrative identity. It's almost like the saying I've heard of atheists..."If atheism is your religion, then atheism is your god." if you can see the analogy I'm applying here.

for the sake of example, I was fond of pretentiously "obsessing" about my own sexuality to the point where I'd state something like this: I want rights for my sexuality too! What would appease you? If I like my girls a little on the chunky side, do I need to move down the scale to a more petite size?" Yeah it's like that. I don't think I need to discuss my sexuality with you or wear it on my sleeve like a badge of honor that everyone requisitely must address and consent to enthusiastically before proceeding ANY further. That's such BULLSHIT, and you can eat it for all I care. I get along great with people. And many of them are homosexual. It doesn't bother me. Do we ever discuss it? No. Are they made to feel like they have to? No. Do they feel like they have to with me? Certainly not. As regards homosexuality, I believe it should be a state issue. I'm glad Californians came out in respect of the traditional institution of marriage which was respected for procreation once upon a time before all you homo's started running to sperm banks for in vitro... heh.

Wow. Wow. Wow. You realize you're just making our argument for us, right?

"what do I think "makes" me heterosexual? Well God for one." So, I guess you didn't have a choice.

"But if I HAD to say what makes me hetero, I'd have to say it's these kinds of creatures that I most lovably affectionately entirely prefer." So, in other words, you love women. That's why you're straight. NO SHIT. That's your whole argument? You are straight because you like women and God made you that way. It doesn't sound like there was ever a choice made.

"makes"... hehe, did you happen to catch my use of that particular word, Einstein? lol ... "makes" there's a subtle distinction I think you haven't been quite sophisticated enough to catch...in your own, circular logic. lol take another look and read a little closer between the lines.

So echoz, if God made heterosexuals, then he also made homosexuals. And, if he made homosexuals and said love thy neighbor, than aren't you a heretic?

Homosexuality is a sin. God won't accept it. He'll leave you to your own. But you claim you don't need him, so wtf is to you? you want acceptance SO BAD it makes you pathetic. Loosen up. You don't have to wear your sexuality on your sleeve. Life is more than what you live in the bedroom if you haven't figured that out yet.

but regarding God, He does make everything but He always gives us a choice! But as regards what will be and should be, that's His business. The Almighty does not report to me the things He's deciding unfortunately. Scriptures say God is not mocked. You should be careful. God can leave you to a reprobate mind, from HIS point of view:

Romans 9:21 "Hath not the Potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and another to dishonor?"

Well echoz thank you for mentioning that. Now that I know we're not going to have a rational conversation based on facts, I don't have to waste my time!

The "facts" of anything don't stand in your way, do they, neonbunny, even if people see you for what you are.

Echoz, I think you must have "chosen" to behave as if you are straight since you think all of this is such a "choice". It's a way to feel better about your own urges, am I right?

What is your problem with non-straight sexuality?

Why don't you ask Amy Goodloe, animal. I'm sure she'd be happy to hear from you. Do you guys pay dues or anything like that? just curious. ;) hehe

I asked you. And, again, you evade the question.

and so did you. you decided on "different" tactics I recall. I don't have a problem with homosexuality myself. It's not my "cross" to carry. Nor am I completely unsympathetic regarding sexual sin. Jubal thinks the warm touch of those UFC girls is sick thing. I'm convinced it never would be. But I question whether following through on desires just because you have them as jubal asserts makes it any reasonably justifiable. QuestionGeek has the presence of mind to wonder if we could solve problems of pediophilia etc. that's how ignorant we've all been regarding the limited initial role that genes [rather] only initially takes in shaping our ultimate "predilections"--such as a ring girl, in my case. jubal calls it peurile, i call it heterosexuality and his more honest respects to heterosexuality (his own now self-confessed bias...thank you jubal for that...it's true. i have mine to.) however, are betrayed in his own opinions... like many here. If you want respect, perhaps we can all start by giving some, or simply learning to respectfully disagree. Or..hehe...perhaps I should ask you, wtf is your problem with heterosexuality that you think you need to shove your homosexuality at the majority of us as if it was some kind of weapon? WTF is your problem with the LONG-STANDING traditional religious views that state marriage is between a man and a wife. It doesn't suit YOUR "predilections". or YOUR sense of sexuality? It restricts your sexual freedom. you WANT your cake and to eat it too. I understand. It's the human condition. but I see what we actually need. Honest respect for honest differences... Yes. Not this bullshit. If you wanna know where i stand on the issue...states rights. I believe in that. And I'm glad that Californians had the courage to vote their TRUE damn consciences without being coerced or manipulated or LIED TO as with the claim this post attempts to make. I'm not stepping on your toes. I am standing for legitimate truth in science, however, which is more than I can say for what some so pathetically WANT this to mean beyond any reason for justifying it here in this article anyway!

So basically, you can follow your desires with a consenting adult of the opposite sex but others can not follow their desires with a consenting adult of the same sex? Or what, they'll go to hell? The world will collapse? Marriage will no longer exist? Kids will all become murderers? Hell will freeze over?

"So basically, you can follow your desires with a consenting adult of the opposite sex but others can not follow their desires with a consenting adult of the same sex?"

The biblical answer, which isn't convenient to a lot of people, not just homosexual, is yes, with qualifications. Although there is clear indication that other expressions of sexuality were practiced (homosexuality is really just only one sexual sin among many, prostitution, adultery, or fornication (casual sex outside marriage) etc.), they were ALSO condemned as sin.

The Bible makes no special distinctions other than to say he'll send us all to hell for refusing to partake of His divine nature through the revelation of Jesus Christ. Even Jesus was tempted in all manner that men can be. You see the goal of Christianity is not to justify carnality, especially for practicing Christians let alone "heathens" (Christians once having tasted the goodness of God, who then return to their "vomit" [scripture's use] are assured a heavier judgment than those who sin in ignorance.) But the bible also says that most men are without excuse for knowing the truth, and have deliberately forsaken Him to follow their own carnal ways.... If the shoe fits, wear it, if you have any fear of God. And fear in this regard is not a bad thing. He means well for all of us, that's my honest belief. I don't claim to b better than you do. You should get through your thick head too. I think you probably have many fine qualities and are likely quite personable, but religiously, there are consequences in my worldview for everyone, myself included. You're no exception, despite your denial. And I'm sure, on that Day, you won't be provided a rock to hide under. None of us will. We will stand in the light of our own sins...

"Or what, they'll go to hell?" Christianity makes that a very real possibility for anyone. There's was also a flood once when He got fed up with all the bullshit. I'm not threatening you to hell, but perhaps my God would. I'm not sure what He really thinks of you, but I know He values you more than you or I can know, despite yours and my own larger or smaller rejections, but He will not put up with bullshit indefinitely. We will die and be taken into account, and half of that statement is already scientifically, existentially proven to be true. With a larger consensus that the universe in fact had a beginning makes the God hypothesis extremely viable, again despite constant repeated denials and distortions.

"The world will collapse? Marriage will no longer exist? Kids will all become murderers? Hell will freeze over?"

Would you threaten me? You know it's also historical fact that when godless people have taken political power, people suffer. Look at N.Korea: he's a god unto himself. Look at Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot--all GODLESS "murdering" "hellish" mferz. And, like so many, their chief characteristic is that they actually HATED those who opposed their own "sinfulness."

That's why you hear me say, honest respect for honest differences. Not distortion. Not lies. Not ad hominem. acknowledge the differences and respectfully learn to live with them. Be gay, and happy, and if you don't espouse Christianity, but don't fault others in doing so. I'll treat you with respect. It's hard enough hanging onto my own "salvation" by grace. I don't put myself above you but I don't feel like I should be made to bow down to compromise my own actual and religious beliefs for you *shrug* that's me. You're you. We're different. You really wanna kill each other about it? Incitefully Bitch and Moan and LIE and DISTORT the truth because it doesn't benefit you? & Manipulate? That's what I hate, not per se the homosexuality. That's not mine to judge in you so much as your gen lack of character. God makes homosexuality, AMONG OTHER SEXUAL SINS, a sin. NOT me. Spiritually, we both fall under the same laws He puts in place physically, and whether we agree or not

The biblical reference to homosexuality was about rape and hedonism, not the homosexuality itself. One reference refers to a man being raped by another man and another refers to an extremely promiscuous state of actions, some of which happened to be homosexual.

I don't believe in the Bible any more than I believe women should be bought by men or that people can get pregnant without having sex, but you should know what you're spouting before spouting it.

when has hypocrisy become so fashionable? Since the advent of political homosexuality would be my humble guess... on the one hand you say unapologetically you don't need or believe in scripture, and then on the other you're freakishly quick to pretend to quote it in some unjustified context as if your stupidity itself somehow justifies the warping you give it. LOL ...look, stick your homosexuality, "keep your day job" as they say... and...PLEASE...Leave the biblical scholarship to those who actually believe in the Bible before they interpret it for other believers who also might actually might just know it quite a little bit better than you can hopelessly pretend to... If you try not to adulterate your preferences using scripture that clearly doesn't agree with you, you may find, refreshingly, that people may respect you a little more than you may be used to...or not. =P hehe

I don't like liars either.

it's some of the best mythologizing going on in modern culture today. pure propoganda really. it's what they want people to think the aim of science should be...to prove THEM. heh.

Scientific fact? Source pls. No bible sites either.

I wouldn't lie to you, but I see it's an easier petulant feat for you. The Language of God. And you already have the name, though I doubt your really "that" interested.

You're welcome, for now.

So what you're saying is that it's actually not a scientific fact bc you have nothing to back it up with and instead resort to insults to hide that fact...

RIght, it's the old nature vs. nurture debate.

Look at it this way, however, being raised heterosexual despite being homosexual means you display heterosexual behaviors. Does that mean you are heterosexual? One has to accept one is homosexual do define oneself as homosexual. Correct?

Then there is no definitive way to determine if a person is homosexual or heterosexual due to genes if people are afraid of being called homosexual and label themselves as heterosexual because that's all they know. That's why they use animal studies.

There's some proven correlation, however, between boys who were homosexual who had uncles on the maternal side that were homosexual.

try reading the article div. that might help you.

@echoz

"there's nothing so simple about sexuality. People choose."

People choose, huh? Perhaps you should think before you hit submit if that's not what you really think.

chuckbowski, damn! *heavy sigh* (feel like bitch-slapping this dopey barney-fife mfer) y'know, let me put it this way so your simple mind can grasp it once and for all:

Yes. It IS STILL SCIENCE-FACT today: there is nothing so simple about sexuality as what YOU'D deceitfully like to MAKE of it deterministically by genes alone. SIMPLY (AGAIN): We are NOT exclusively nor dominantly, deterministically hardwired genetically. Genes play an initial if smaller role overall. And yes, I still think it's true that when people make the decision to have sex, it's generally a CHOICE they're free to make. Now, wouldn't even someone as stupid as even you pretend to be, agree with that? Or are you too a victim of sexual predators who deterministically MAKE you what you are today? Hmmmm.... In any case, it seems more clear that you'd actually LIKE to have your sexual choices made for you. I take it as well that you might also rather like to take the submissive feminist role in your possibly sado-masochistic sex games too, for all I know? ;) To each his...pardon me..."HER" own, I guess. Careful with those knee-rug-burns eh? Good luck in life and into the hereafter chuck. Be what you want. You don't need genes to determine the likes of you.

If this is meant as a joke, it's not funny. there are some people who really do want a "cure" for homosexuality, and that's a scary world i don't want to be a part of.

sexuality is a scary world harboring many deviant behaviors uberdeft...liberals say ANYTHING goes...why do you discriminate? on what grounds?

Interesting being that I'm so used to hearing all the wonderful "therapies" genes are good for....now when you see it only potentially affects your particular interests do you make exceptions? hmmm...

Many people have left homosexuality without "gene therapy" to be honest. and many have joined without it too...just because of the novelty and liberalizing culture. That's also reality, many of you homo's keep ignoring and playing off because you can't reproduce...YOU MUST however RECRUIT to fill your political ranks.

echoz, for someone who quotes Jesus a lot on this website, you sure are a hater when it comes to sexuality.

God hates a few things about sexuality that He never intended as well Jubal, and not just your "special" homosexuality. As a Christian believer, you think maybe that's where I get it from too? Who'd have thought you could figure that Jubal! Commendable piece of detective work there. Isn't it funny too that the Muslims don't make exceptions for homosexuality either? Wonder how they got that idea too. Why don't apply your sleuthing "skills" there Jubal, and maybe just accept that Christianity doesn't have to suit you. Thanks for "better" wisdom, right? heh

No, God doesn't hate homosexuality and things about sexuality, the hypocrites and bigots who wrote the Bible do.

It is not a disease, uberdeft, so this is not a cure - it is intervention and manipulation. With the same technique, they could "cure" blue eyes, red hair, freckles, snub noses, long fingers, etc., none of which are diseases.

It would be nice if we could fix the freaks who engage in pedophilia, coprophagia, bestiality with this technology. Who cares about gays?

no, actually, rather specious BULL**** is most apropos for this deliberately misleading propoganda.

That was the first thing that came to my mind - "But aren't earthworms hermaphrodites?"

It could have been done by looking at human genes, which has been done, showing that homosexuality is genetic.

This is a mickey and one of today's biggest modern myths: "It could have been done by looking at human genes, which has been done, showing that homosexuality is genetic."

clearly that's the fallacy homo's would want you to "accept" for their utter "helplessness." surely it would make for better appeals to a sympathizing public, IF it were true...only it's simply NOT true. In fact, it is a lie...

And an alluring myth only the homo's keep kicking around like a dead horse they hope will one day eventually get up... *shrug* but there's nothing so simple about sexuality. People choose. That's the intuitive common sense inherent in the sensibilities of most reasonable unselfish and more honest people, who also "choose" to put with these illogical specious bullshit arguments from time to time simply because some fool wants YOU to believe it for HIS own selfish "respects".

Respect should proceed from honesty and truth. Not lies and manipulation.

It always makes me wonder if the people harping on "choice" are bisexual. I'm straight and I definitely never made a choice and I definitely couldn't change my mind and suddenly be gay. Just not possible.

I agree , thebigchuckbowski , I wish i had a choice . I also think that people who repress themselves express it by hating those , like themselves , who are open about that which they repress .

Point number one: Who cares if it is genetic or not. What business is it of mine or anyone elses if a person is gay?

Point number two: Studies that show that genetics have a ROLE, but not a determining factor. This is what the studies show thus far. So let's not make statements like "Studies show that homosexuality is genetic." Echoz was correct about one thing, making false or bloated statements will only win you enemies. The truth always wins out.

If genes have a role than it is genetic. It's not a bloated statement.

Genes have a role in cancer making it genetic.

I did not say "It is solely genetic and only genetic and nothing else matters". That would be a bloated statement.

Everything is an interaction between genes and environment.

I agree with both your points hammywill. Well and succinctly put. and in particular...

"...making false or bloated statements will only win you enemies. The truth always wins out."

...I wish THAT statement of yours alone would grab some MUCH-needed traction, but obviously, truth isn't respected nor handled responsibly in this particular community of liars.

And I totally agree with that great summary this title obviously and falsely intends to convey to the unsuspecting: "So let's not make statements like 'Studies show that homosexuality is genetic.'" Thanks hammywill, and not for agreeing with me, but for letting your own more objective views be known. Much appreciated here.

Echoz, you are welcome. I always think the truth should be ones only weapon. The controversy over homosexuality should not, in my opinion, revolve around whether or not it is a chosen lifestyle or not anyway. It is about whether or not it is anyones business regardless.

ANILMALIA: In your first reply you stated "It is genetic." Implying that it is genes that are the determining factor. The studies thus far can only suggest that they are a CONTRIBUTING factor, but not a determining factor. Let us not pretend that you were saying other than that Genes are what make one homosexual, in the same way Genes determine your eye color. That is simply not proven and is not substantiated by any science thus far.

P.S. Animalia...Genes can determine whether or not someone is more likely to get cancer, but they do not CAUSE cancer. So it is not genetic, though there are contributing genetic factors.