Jesus Camp

This movie is brilliant and oh so terrifying. Even creepier now that I live in the Bible belt and can experience it first-hand.

This is extremely dark, makes me think of Waco, TX. This "pastor" is stating that children need to be exposed to this type of treatment? And by the way, since when is america the land of jesus, i thought that was Israel? Could this not be considered child abuse too?

Cosmo-

I love your song, "Jesus Couldn't Stop Puking".

Also, I was very moved when I read your story on the abortion thread. I offer my condolences, and wish you nothing but the best in life.

-Ando

yeah i watched this the other night and thought it was insane. i believe in God. and watching this was very how do i say Scary these kids scared the shit out of me. i don't know what to think but i can tell you one thing im grad i went to public school.

Thanks for the update Zen!

I did a story about this film and interviewed the directors (Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady). It was picked for airplay but sadly never made it on Current TV for a bunch of reasons.

Give it a watch:

http://current.com/items/76436902_jesus_camp

I think you will all be pleased to hear this camp closed down several months after this film was released in 11/06, so the anger by many posters, while justified, is no longer necessary on this issue - it's old news.

-zen

Why are Christians trying to "copy" Islamists, by thinking they need to train "fanatics"? Deuteronomy 20 contains the laws of war which also applies to the laws of spiritual warfare. You had to be 20 years old to go to war-something our country should adopt-because anyone younger than that was too impressionable. Anyone younger hadn't lived long enough to make a conscious decision on their own. These children are not qualified to engage in physical warfare (obviously) nor are they qualified to engage in spiritual warfare.
I am not surprised with the atheist response. Christians need to pray for this women running the Jesus Camp to come to her senses. Are Christians now envious of Islam's religious training? Is this how Joseph and Mary taught Jesus-the one the camp is supposed to be about? Obviously not. And I am a Christian.

I haven't had the time to really sit and watch this whole "Jesus Camp" movie as of yet, but from what I have seen and heard, I'm pretty sure it's one of the scariest movies I've ever heard of. To me, there is not much that is more frightening than religious fanaticism. Some of the worst atrocities in this world were committed by and in the name of religious fanaticism.

Fortunately, I realize that not all religion has to be this way, nor do all religious people. I've seen some absolutely wonderful things done in the name of religion. I am constantly in awe of the drive and dedication to worthy causes that is inspired by religion.

It does no good for us to combat religious zealotry and fanaticism with unfounded and unnecessary criticism of religion with blanket statements and generalizations. It is hypocritical and counter productive to do such things.

In my opinion, the best thing we can do as a global culture is be open to discussion of our beliefs with a ready understanding that not all people (and maybe not even many) are going to believe or even like what we have to say. We must be prepared to challenge others beliefs and have ours challenged if we wish to grow as people or as cultures.

This is the most offencive thing that I have seen In my life.This is not sane.this is not right there may be some relvent issues but to traine kids to act this way.it is well Brainwashing

I'd like to bring the Earth into this conversation. Earth, what say you?

EARTH: I dont like all that carbon emitting you've been doing.

Ok, so now that we know what the Earth thinks, and since we know the Earth is our source, can we do what we know is right in respect to the source, religious or not?

If you believe in God, global warming is a religious issue.

Cosmo,
Pick up your loot from the bookie, bc by at least modest estimations, I am a caring and decent person. I also fancy myself a careful thinker and good detector of bullsh*t.

I'll be charitable and assume you are not aware of other conversations I've had with DCO wherein I attempt to demonstrate by force of REASON (and not emotion) the weakness of her arguments. So that, if by looking at this thread alone, you might be justified in thinking I'm mud slinging (but for heavens sake, no comment about "i love roman lions'?). But in fact, I am not slinging mud. I'm only calling DCO on the carpet for not being intellectually committed to atheism, but instead being emotionally committed. And then, I took the extra charitable measure of saying that, on my view, she does not need to be intellectually committed anyhow...she can resort to faith in the atheistic community to have a ready response to my challenges--even if she never surfaces any.

Now, when you refer to pointless and pathetic arguments, I imagine you mean some of my comments, to which I respond in kind, "I know you are but what am I?"

"The only semblance of an argument I see in your post is something like: Since nobody knows nothing, everybody should shut up!" To which I say, "I'm first, after you."

But to take your argument a lil more seriously, it can probably be stated as follows:
1) Nobody has a meta view of religious experience
2) Shut up.

The problem with your argument should be obvious to even Phil 101 students: you would need a META view of religious experience to claim that nobody has a META view of religious experience.

In short, if this is in factr your argument (remember, you didnt give one, you only called me names --caring and decent amongst them) its self-referentially incoherent.

till then, exhale.

DCO,
Its become clear to me that your beliefs concerning religion and science are a jumbled mess too difficult to untangle. On on the one hand, by some bizarre stretch of logic, you wish to impugn Jesus for saying something he never said only to deny the fact that he is a historical figure to begin with. Huh?

It seems clear to me you're reaching into an assorted bags of contradictory criticisms of Christianity in an attempt to smear its claims of legitimacy. Fine, but unrefined.

More intersting, though, is the fact that I DONT THINK YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO DEFEAT MY CRITICISMS OF YOUR CLAIMS IN ORDER FOR YOU TO BE JUSTIFIED IN BEING AN ATHEIST.

Its clear that you have an emotional prejudice towards historical religions...you then do some shoddy intellectual patchwork to appear intellectually justified. When your justification is demonstrated to be weak or illogical, you persist in your ATHEISM bc ??? your commitment to atheism is emotional and not intellectual. If it were intellectual wouldnt it be incumbent upon you to search high and low for new potential evidence for God's existence, I mean...you're just waiting for a good argument aren't you?

Even more so, I'm guessing you couldnt articulate any version of any argument for the existence of God bc you are really not interested in argumenta and evidence, but instead interested in bashing an easy target (an entity with billions of adherents and over 5t thousands years of history).

Dear Everyone:

Calm the [expletive deleted] down. I'm an atheist, and I find Jesus Camp to be frightening and would do anything within the bounds of morality and law to ensure that America doesn't transform into a reflection of the film, but doing so requires the cooperation of everyone. We must not be so antagonistic to one another. If anything worthwhile is to be done, then we must find a common ground and build from there. People like blueplanet, dco, I have our reasons for not believing in God (or anything else supernatural for that matter), and people like Booksbrown and LowFlyingJets (By the by, I'm in the PIT area. Hit me up.) have their reasons for their beliefs. Groovy. Let's move on, and work for a better future. I know that this sounds like an annoying PSA for pre-teens, but we can do it.

defensive...and afraid...just admit it Low, you don't need christ, you need love...let me wrap you up in my arms and show you.. :)

chique thats why i said don't look at christians to see christ. you took longer than me to repeat something i already said

Great quote Chique...

LowFlying: Seems you get disgusted a lot at anything challenging your belief system. I believe there is a God. I also believe that "religion" in its various forms, just within the Christian community, is man made interpretation of the bible. Nowhere in the bible is the word "religion" used. "Religion" worldwide has persecuted and wiped out scores of individuals, and incited more wars, to reinforce the belief that they are "right" since the beginning of written history. What every individual "believes" to be truth is their comfort zone, it's what to them makes sense of this world. When it comes to spiritual matters, millions of us have different opinions, all of them arguable, but none can be absolute truth.

For the great enemy of truth is very often not the
lie--deliberate, contrived and dishonest--but the
myth--persistent, persuasive--of our forebears.
We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort
of thought. - John F. Kennedy

low...i would equate your elephant with something much worse than lions eating christians thousands of years ago...thousands of years ago we did not know half of what we know now...and still, many of your elephants are now killing for something just as disillusioned as those lions so long ago...

i wont point out your semantical errors but i will point out that by your "i heart roman lions" icon, you're probably referring to the roman lions that were used to devour christians thousands of years ago... in which case youre disgusting and everything you have said means nothing to me

Booksbrown - The old testament was the scirpture of the Jewish faith. Jesus was what? That's right, a Jew. I didn't say Jesus said that, merely that he believed that, but even so, one says "Jesus loves you" as a means of personal compassion, as to say "We can still be friends, despite theological differences." If the doctrine to which they adhere says otherwise, they are lying. THAT was the point of my post. Know thine enemy is my philosophy for any controversy. Unfortunately, atheistic zealotry is far too common, as is atheistic passivity, but I am neither.
On a different note, I'm not sure why anyone believes the bible at all. First off, there is NO contemporary historical context for Jesus, besides the bible. You'd think a man going around performing miracles would get noticed by more than his closest buddies. So the bible stands alone in its account of that era, and its account of the basis of the Christian faith. It was written a generation after the death of Jesus, and no one knows who wrote it. Furthermore, it constantly contradicts itself; Different accounts of the same story are often told. It seems way outdated in many of its teachings, yet God would be able to foresee this, given his omniscience. Finally, the only reason to suppose it is God's word is that they say so. I agree with atheist in that it is heresay. There is no way to check sources, so you can either believe it or not, but the latter would be far more justified. Why would you believe the bible of the Qu'ran? They both claim to be the word of God...
Booksbrown - If you respond to thiss, please don't point out some semantical error that I overlooked; it's a waste of time.

in THIS kind of forum, expressing your beliefs is not equal to pushing them upon other people. anyone can get up and leave whenever they want.

BluePlanet, I agree.
LowFlyingJets, I agree.

You two are giving a different name to the same thing. Low, you personify the energy you feel. Blue, you choose not to define the source of the energy you feel.

But no matter what, you both ought to agree on this: that the energy you feel comes from the same source!

or is that just me imposing my belief of non-duality?

At the risk of jacking a thread which is already partially jacked, I now choose to shed light on a different part of the religious discussion that has started to reared its ugly head.

Does talking about one's own religious beliefs amount to the same as pushing them upon other people of different beliefs, or can the two be kept separate?

As an agnostic person I would really like to see how people feel about that question.

I'm not knocking your beliefs, just explaining my own. And I don't believe in god because I don't need to, not because I have no proof. If you feel you need something other than your own humanity to give you strength, feel free, just don't force it on others who aren't as dependent as yourself. Once you understand your own fears and realize they are for the most part, unfounded, you might understand my lack of structured faith allows me more peace than you will ever know.

blueplanet if you dont believe in god because there's not overwhelming evidence to support him why do you believe in an unexplained energy that binds us all? there is absolutely no conclusive evidence to prove your beliefs. therefore, stop knocking on ours

stop looking at christians to see christ

This is a great conversation, and although I'm for the most part in agreement with atheist, I think we all could agree that modern organized religion (whatever it be) has become more about fear of what will become of you in non-belief, as opposed to recognizing morals as something to be shared with everyone, whether your focus be on a belief in god or otherwise. I happen to believe in myself and don't feel I need draw strength on an entity I see no logic in believing in...that being said, I do believe in a yet unexplained energy binding us all..but for me this is not phantasmal proof of the validity of the old or new testaments, but rather, proof that we simply exist and share a common thread..that need not be used for control over one another. This camp indoctrinates children in a way that does not benefit either cause..it is being used simply to create conflict between people, based solely on personal fears. So, what do you all think?

one thing is for sure, Jesus would be appalled by modern Christianity and the people who call themselves his followers.

atheist,

according to your view, we should never believe anything we read in the paper bc the people who are being quoted didnt actually write down for themselves what they said. seems absurd, no?

you might reply, "well, we can ask other witnesses to see what they said." (which, btw, on your view is still hearsay--so you really couldnt say that).

to which belivers might reply: check the other Gospels and early church history and non-religious sources of the time to get corroborative historical testimony.
the ignorance of some atheists is harmful.

You rightly note there is a difference btw knowledge and belief. My question to you is, what makes certain beliefs knowledge? Come up with a definition and I'll give you an example of something we both agree is knowledge but doesnt fit your defintion. When I do that, abandon your view or at least suspend belief, bc frankly, I dont think you've given serious consideration to opposing views.

This is the difference between knowledge and belief. While religious people believe very vehemently in Jesus, the ability to prove he actually existed is severely lacking. Consider Thomas, one of the apostles. His gospel writings have been recently unearthed. What a surprise his gospel wasn't included in the bible. If you read it you will find it pretty fantastical, even for a believer. He would help his father out by lengthening a pice of wood, as well as reportedly having turned his playmate into a goat when he was a child.

The more investigation one does into the history reveals that religion is a salad bar. Thay pick and choose those parts of the story that will best convince people rather than offer the full panapoly of information regarding the issue. This gives them the leeway of exempting those people that give fantastical accounts that very few would believe regardless of the depth of their belief, such as Thomas.

To all the religious individuals out there...

To quote jesus is a little ridiculous as there isn't any works that he wrote. It's what we in the modern age call hearsay. Please point out to me the specific works that Jesus wrote promulgating his views and how the unverse works (heaven, etc.). Unfortunately, you can't. You can quote the apostles left and right, but the actual ability to say THIS is what jesus said is pure hearsay and arguments trying to justify arguments based on hearsay are risible.

DCO,
a little religious education would do you well. Jesus did not speak in the Old Testament, so I doubt he could have said anything of the sort you claim...unless, of course, you're willing to grant him divine attributes =)

Psamls= Old Testament
Jesus' teachings: New Testament

Btw, its more than a little curious that youre reviling a religion you seem to know so little about...strikes me as a sort of atheistic zealotry, que no?

Jesus makes it pretty clear he doesn't love us: "The fool hath said in his heart, 'there is no God.' They are corrupt. They have done abominable works. There is none who does good." (Psalms 14:1) Jesus hates us, gays, adulterers, beastialists, and... stick-gatherers. On a different note, parents should not subject kids to this sort of indoctrination. I was not religeously educated until I was old enough to make my own decision. And that I did.

blueplanet, I agree. I believe that the parents are mostly to blame for pushing "religion" onto their children. We should have the right to choose to believe in Jesus or not. Jesus loves atheists too :)

yea, pretty disgusting.

People are funny though. feeling so separate and subordinate to God when in fact they are god.

I watched this a few months ago and I'll tell you why it bothers me so much. I think adults manipulating children for thier agenda is heinous. I also like the part where they talk about global warming and how god put us here to use all the resources and not worry about protecting the earth because the rapture is coming soon to take them away and it will the non-believers with the problem of pollution. They believe that God is going to take them to a never ending supply of clean air and water. I almost wish the rapture would come so those idiots would be gone and we could fix this planet.

Also, remember that when the little rat-tailed redneck child stood before the audience to give his sermon, he remembered only the fearful ideas of Hell and Satan and punishment, rather than anything positive. If that's what the kids are taking away from their religious involvement, then it's an injustice to teach it to them.

yes, the hitler youth, hadn't even thought of that, lame.

I'm curious, did the Nazi party not do something similar to the children of their country prior to and during the second world war?

i think the most disturbing thing about the film was the lady in charge, using kids as a commodity to further the scope and influence of her church. She was very calculating and strategic about the whole thing. that was creepy.

we should all be like you!

remarkableryan...i am not hateful towards people who believe in christ...i am hateful toward people who would subject their children to this kind of rhetoric and teachings...my whole argument is based on this film, not the overall faith of people as a whole...although i have issue with that too, but purely philosophical..:)

So i just watched the first 10 minutes of the full version. I am a Christian and I attend a Christian University. There is a difference between teaching anyone about Jesus and the bible and basically forcing them to believe something. I was raised Christian and even now I am still taught to examine and understand the bible and analyze it and form my own opinions for what it is trying to say. I also thought that was part of the beauty of christianity. Tolerance, understanding and love. Everyone is different and everyone is going to interpret what the bible says differently. But at this camp, the kids arent being given the opportunity to think for themselves. And it does seem like they arent even talking about love and tolerance. I'm sorry, but I thought that was one of most important messages from jesus. Peace and love. I'm starting to realize that many Christians today don't even take that into account. "Where's the LOVE y'all? I don't know!" (black eyed peas...duhhh!)

What a bummer that these kids are being so mislead. I have to agree that its pretty disturbing.

That's the problem: when you brainwash kids at such an early age it's very difficult for them to grow up and make "independent" choices. Especially if you were raised from birth to believe that if you do not OBEY your family will hate you and (more importantly) the all-powerful God will torture you forever! Whats especially revealing is how violently opposed these groups are to exposing kids to OTHER religions. I see nothing wrong with sending a kid to a World Religions camp where they learn all about Taoism, Buddhism, Mormonism and also spend copious amounts of time examining the world that existed outside the Bible during the Biblical time. Yes, Virginia, other human beings existed in China, Africa and North America at the exact same time as Moses was walking around (allegedly) in Egypt. Sfunny how the Creator of ALL mankind seems to have totally forgotten that, oh yeah, I created people in South America and Australia too! Did He just forget to mention them in the Bible? Did He just forget to give Native Americans and Africans the Ten Commandments too? Watching the film I didnt know what was more shocking, the lengths these people went to in order to brainwash their kids or how shockingly ignorant the parents were of basic history and science!

I agree with the earlier post, it is disturbing. Not because it?s any shocker that people brainwash their children. Many, especially the "religious," try to perfect their own self-image and compensate for that internal sense of failure buy trying to mold children into utopian automatons. ?Exactly what we think it would have taken for our parents and god to be completely love us and be proud of us if we hadn?t screwed it all up?!
What is disturbing to me is that such religious fanaticism is still possible here in the US at this age when information and knowledge is so easily available. The woman in the clip said she wanted to see children as committed to god as young Islamic children are to Islam. Well she found the way, keep them locked away from reality and uneducated, fill them with any hate/love related emotion, give them a target and you have the makings of suicide bombers for Christ.
I would think anyone with the slightest awareness during high school history class would beg for a world free of these delusions. Well maybe she will get her way and one day an occupying force from a more enlightened society will grapple with the issues of how to deal with fanatical Christian insurgents in the previous territories of America. But then again my optimism shows by thinking there is a chance for an ?enlightened? society.

That is the problem... This is RELIGION. If you read anything from the new testament, Jesus warns about religious practices and traditions. Jesus also never mixed politics and spirituality. I am a Christian and I don't totally agree with the things in this film myself. For example: This woman, who is the leader of this camp, says she wants the children to be like radical islam, but for Jesus. That is ridiculous. If you read anything out of the bible, it teaches to love others. Just because something has Jesus in the title, doesn't necessarily mean Jesus Himself would sign off on it.

I also think what blueplanet said is pretty hateful towards people who believe in Christ. Yes, this film is somewhat disturbing, even to christians, but just because people don't agree with your ideas doesn't mean that they are stupid.

personally i disagree with this camps and it's methods. but i do think a lot of people see stuff like this and i think that tht christain are like i went christain cmp as a child (though im not christin now) and they weren't nothing like that.

Okay, that was very disturbing. I think fundamentalism isn't good any case. Especially not when children are involved. A child is so open to influences that they are the most vulnerable and brainwashable members of our society. Maybe that is the reason why the age limit is between seven and nine... If the Jesus Camp leaders succeed in their mission, I fear America may have some disturbed politicians in the future.

stewie, nobody's arguing about freedom of religion. but teaching little kids and brainwashing them are two very different things.

stevie33, these kids are deeply harmed by this type of camp and brainwashing. By the time they grow up, they are either fully programmed or, if they resist, totally neurotic and even possibly psychopathic. If you watch the whole documentary (I posted it in my other comment), you'll notice that they are also brainwashed to literally worship George W. Bush, and the leader of that camp considers them like potential suicide bombers for Jesus.

why is this any different than the way muslims react towards their religions.
sparking a debate about this questions the fact that we have freedom of religion and that we are allowed to choose what we believe and dont believe.
its the parents choice to send their kids to a camp like that and then when the children grow up they can decide if they want to contunie believing or not.

GoLeftTV is a great place to get the stories you likely will not see in any other media venue. good to see somebody got it to the front page here.

jesus...