CIA rendered 14 Prisoners to Jordan for torture

crob80227 : Did you mis-understand me ? You seem to be able to do your research quite well.Good education no doubt. Let me put this as simple as I can, sometimes good people have to do bad things, bad people like to do bad things. I don't think or feel that torture is a permanent solution , but until some brilliant researcher can figure out a way to extract pertinent information from a bad person or magically spot a wrongfully accused person we are in a catch 22. I can't think of one questioning tecnique that does not involve some degree of torture. If you just keep appealing to them in a spiritual manner try to get into that persons soul (it wont happen on the first question)and just ask over and over you are using a form of torture. Should we use drugs ? hhmmmm, sounds like torture, should we use fear? If you have a solution I'm sure that every nominee for the NOBEL peace prize would gladly hand it to you (as long as its realistic) and bow to you superior intellect. I know ! IT JUST CAME TO ME THE VULCAN MIND PROBE! Until then we really don't need (but apreciated) examples of how screwed up the human race really is. Why do you keep calling me a liberal?

To be fair there are MANY examples throughout history where in torture was critical to national security concerns.

I direct you to the following exchange that occurred in a news conference in 1600’s between Priest Judas Mayfair and a hostile (and probably liberal) press corps that was questioning the morality of using “aggressive interrogation” techniques on the witch-detainees he held in custody.

“First of all let me assure the colonists that we do not ‘torture’ any of the witches we have in our state of the art detention facilities. We do, on rare occasions, employ aggressive interrogation techniques. Some may claim that stretching a witch on the Rack or burning the witches with hot irons is torture. I hold in my hand a legal decision from my chief counsel that clearly explains that neither of these interrogation techniques can legally be defined as torture. They are simply colony defense tools critical to our well-being and safety from witches. Already our investigations have yielded a wealth of actionable intelligence. It seems every time we interrogate one witch they immediately implicate another witch! Not even the liberals can argue that these techniques aren’t effective. We haven’t had another witch attack or drought since we began, have we?”

I would also direct any naysayer who doubts the effectiveness of torture to another press conference (chiseled in stone for posterity) held by Aztec tribal chieftains who had come under fire from the LIBERAL media in regards to their practices of ripping the hearts out of virgins to appease the terrorist Sun gods.

“Let me assure the assembled tribe that the Aztec nation does not engage in torture! What we are doing is better described as aggressive weather management. We can’t deny that this nation experienced a terrible, terrible drought a decade ago. Once we implemented the tool of ripping the still beating heart out of virgin volunteers we can’t deny that there has been a correlating absence of drought. The rains have been plentiful! In order to keep this tribe safe from droughts it is critical that I, as Chief, have these emergency virgin sacrifice powers made permanent! Those the question the wisdom of ripping the hearts out of people in order to appease the Sun gods are obviously either ill-informed or are simply evil-minded ‘Blame Aztec First’ terrorist sympathizers. It’s as simple as that.”

And how can we forget another brave leader, Stalin! He too was the victim of a liberal hate campaign that tried to distort his national security measures (through the liberal owned media) into something evil!

“Let me assure my comrades that the Soviet Union does not torture. What we are doing is helping people better understand our political philosophy in our state of the art Education Facilities in Siberia at no cost to the students! The liberals tend to leave that part out. It doesn’t cost our, uh, students anything. We fly them to Siberia free of charge and provide all of their gruel at no expense to them. Sometimes these students are sent to our re-education facilities involuntarily, but we have a duty to help them learn about how awesome it is to live in this wonderful communist country! No, we don’t torture. Our re-education philosophy does embrace a rather, uh, vigorous physical education while we explain how great the Soviet Union is, but we don’t torture.”

Give em hell calicuban83! say it loud say it proud.

Gee crob, I'm not talking about a stupid telly show. In real life it would be easier to die than live through some of the wonderful tortrure techniques available world wide. With the right tools you coul;d live in unbearable agony for a very , very long time . Having lived through torture done by amateur's and not for a very long time I do have some idea of what I'm talking about , you have also helped me make the same point this person would rather die than get caught and maybe give up some of their fellow school bombing friends,they know if caught it would not be cookies and milk while singing we are the world(eeewww that does sound like torture),well I'm tired of trying to explain to you the world is a cruel place and sometimes , some people have to make hard real life decisions which will cause somebody pain. Good luck with the cookies and milk, I wish you were the one that questioned me!

How low does an administration have to sink to twist the basic meanings of words to spin out of trouble and have their way? What? They can't be wrong if we can't define what wrong is? Pure Bullshit.

Passive-agressive isn't going to take us far this world, and why is America popular, because we give freedom to all of our citizens and promote freedom worldwide, and if someone want to go against freedom, against everything that freedom stand for, where else can we accomplish freedom?

If someone want to jihad against someone who has the freedom to think for themselves and practice whatever belief they choose, how can we compromise with that because that alway will be threat not the national security but international security.

Method of tortures is wrong and what choice do we have to defend International community from those who pose threat to us? Is there a better Solution, I would like to hear that solution?

Do you really need CIA clearance to ask (and answer) obvious questions about the effectiveness of torture?

It's ineffective. Just on the surface it seems illogical -- but luckily we don't have to rely onour "gut" like Bush does. The military has already researched this and proved that it doesn't.

Bush, once again, is going AGAINST the opinion of the military in this matter. Just like he went against conventional military wisdom when it came to how many troops would be needed to secure Iraq.

Do you really think a suicide bomber -- a man prepared to DIE -- would betray his entire cause just because we broke a couple of his fingers?

Do you really think that if one of the hard core holy warriors planted a nuke somewhere that he'd "crack" under the pressure and betray what would arguably be he's life's work? Especially -- especially! -- if he knew he'd only have to hold out for a few hours or a few days? And even that unlikely sceanrio (made popular by FOX's tv show "24") is highly, highly contrived. Happens all the time on TV, but never in real life.

A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The most effective methods for keeping America safe is old fashioned hardwork and intelligence gathering.

Hey Crob when did you leave the CIA ? When did you get a top level security clearence? How do you know what happens are you tapped into something that gives you classified information. Wake up ! How is it that liberal thinking can make so many people blind at one time. During the 80's I was lucky enough to spend some time traveling in central America and I was just bumming around , the amount of communist insurgence down there scared the hell out of me! It all came to a glorious end, but it didn't just happenby magic some good people gave up everything , they paided the ultimate price, now its all falling apart.

ohplease -- you made a mistake.

You keep thinking there is this mythical scenario wherein -- somehow -- we caught a bad guy and there is a bomb ready to go off somewhere and we only have 2hr to get this guy to tell us where it is or else.

If he is really so fanatical then wouldn't he just endure the torture for 2hrs?

Couldn't he just lie and send his torturers on a wild goose chase for 2hrs?

First, I understand your concerns about keeping America safe. I really do. The problem is the scenario you're describing never happens and even if it did, well, I just listed two big reasons why even torture wouldn't work.

And what if we (oops!) got the wrong guy? What if our enemies knew we were on to them and set someone else up to appear to be "the mastermind" and we ended up taking a baseball bat to this guys legs screaming, "Where's Osama?" and all the while we ignore his pleas of innocence? We just covered the walls of the interrogation room with blood and put someone in a wheelchair for life for no reason.

The problem with torture, as our own military repeatedly states, is that it really doesn't work. It just doesn't.

Which is probably why we don't bother to torture ordinary US criminals.

I love this country ! I LOVE AMERICA! Torture is a part of all nations for what is called National Security. If you spoke out against it in say the entire middleast what do you think would happen. If it came down to a simple scenario of ,hmmm crob80227 has been kidnapped and is buried someplace with only a certain amount of air and we have caught the person responsible. Now should I torture or maybe just try to talk to the person and appeal to the humanity side of the individual in custody or just let you die. Now imagine that individual has been conditioned to think your death will solve everything that is wrong with the world. do you want to be the one that diesfor a few fanatics or maybe you'll just let a few of your family or friends die!Where should we draw the line ? Whos children should be sacraficed? Of all the atrocities committed around the world America is focused on the most.Your right abuse is never right ,but it's a very savage world and sometimes savage choices have to be made. I have to thank my god that I don't have make those choices and I can sit here and type out whats on my mind without some fanatic trying to kill me, Pray for those who have to make such decisions so our kids can watch cartoon network ,go to the mall, drive mommyand daddy's car , use the credit card and go on line anytime they want. Why not boycott buying products made in china(Walmart) or maybe get involved with trying to stop the slave market which kidnapps young girls all overthe world, stop buying fuel from a fanatical ruler of Venezuela. Everyone thinks they're right I'm no exception , but if we fix the simple things first maybe we can correct the other wrongs along the way. AND GOD BLESS US , EVERYONE! GET IT? Tiny tim ya know A Christmas Carol.

Exactly how effective are these torture methods? Is it such an effective method that we keep using it? There's no real way of knowing is there?

The gentlemen quoted in this article was sent to Guantanamo bay. The other's histories are available in the Human Right's Watch report.

What was the outcome of the arrests? Were they charged or released?

Unfortunately this isn't mind boggling for me any more.

Honestly, this just boggles my mind. How can we continue to use torture as a way to get information. Aren't we in a war trying to bring democracy to another country yet we use such extreme practices. It just makes no sense!

Rendition = absolute abuse of power. The idea that both "terrorist" and "torture" are broadly defined, if at all scares me. I know there are some real ass holes out there, but they are still enemy combatants, and we are not suppose to stoop to their level. We cant site torture as a reason to invade nations, then send people to get tortured in our name. wtf mate.

I doubt Bush would ever allow such treatment of US citizens had China tried to do exactly the same thing to us.

Would Bush allow China to remove at will US citizens out of our country that they felt were a threat to their national security? No.

Would Bush allow China to "render" US citizens to a nation like North Korea to be tortured? No.

Would Bush allow China to take US citizens, kidnapped out of US soil and then tortured in North Korea to then be held in Chinese "dentention facilities" without charge for years while simultaneously refusing to allow any representative from the US to speak to them or verify their well being? No.

I think it's fairly obvious that Bush has a double standard for how "those people" deserve to be treated and how he feels "his own" deserve to be treated.

To put it more bluntly -- Bush himself doesn't believe the bullshit he spews about how what he's doing is perfectly "legal" and in accordance with international law.

Obviously he doesn't believe that because he'd refuse to allow those exact same actions to be done to US citizens by other countries.