It is time to create the America we deserve

Response, cont'd:

I never referred to the world being blessed by God (it is under a curse - Gen 3 to Rev 22:3), but our nation specifically. Throughout history, there were nations that God blessed and used to accomplish specific things, such as Ancient and present-day Israel, England when she was the publisher of the word of God and the primary trainer/sender of missionaries during a time when 2/3 of the world's population were believers as a result of that missionary activity. God has blessed the United States with peace, prosperity, a government by the people, a unique geological position in the world, and what some would call a lot of military luck. That was when America was the biggest trainer and sender of missionaries to the world. We no longer have that distinction.

Finally, your first paragraph speaks volumes. There isn't one religion because our God is not an Ogre that will not give man a choice. God is love, and just like it would be meaningless to have a wife who was with you because she was forced to as opposed to a wife who chose to be with you out of love, He wants you to choose. There are indeed some major differences between a bible believer and any other religion. The word of God does transcend gender, race, language, age, geography...and it does indeed penetrate everything. There is not a situation man has ever devised where it becomes irrelevant. Even in today's world. The reason there is such disagreement on what the Bible says is because no one is reading it. Folks would rather take the easy way out, which is just subscribing to a "school of thought" on the thing rather than real analysis. It always defines itself. It is accessible, but your understanding depends upon the spirit with which you come to it. Come with the wrong spirit and you will leave with no more understanding than you started with. God wants man to understand it - you can see that if you read it.

This discussion has strayed off the main topic, but I'm glad we were able to dive into some of your questions. This is supposed to be about the America we deserve. You and I seem to agree that we both think we are going to be getting the country we deserve... even if we disagree on what that country is going to look like.

Thank you for your response, C. Indeed, human nature has not changed much since the days of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. However, the context of the passage refers to the "last days", an obvious reference to a growing sentiment during the time between Christ's death burial and resurrection and the second coming. Though it is not indicative of anything unusual in this time, it is indeed in context with our previous posts, and by no means moot. It addresses an alternate "godliness", one that claims a kind of "righteousness" while denying the power of God (humanism, communism, extreme environmentalism, "religiosity", terrorism, etc...).

I appreciate your fourth paragraph. Those are all things I think we should give to each other. What we deserve, at least from a scriptural point of view, is death, Romans 6:23. Because of that, what Christ did is so critically important. He offered salvation according to Romans 10:9-10. Without that, literally nothing else matters.

Your Sodom & Gomorrah reference is interesting. Maybe you've been down this road before...at any rate, you may have noticed God rarely does anything exactly the same way when it comes to blessing and judgment - he takes us as individuals and nations. Tough for you to make a case that this is a S&G situation, though. I outlined the judgment I think is at hand, which is living in a land of outrageous taxes, income redistribution, where the death of innocent babies is lauded as a "right" and death of murderers is condemned as "cruel", a land with no defenses when our enemies are real and willing, and a government that thinks it takes or gives power to the people rather than people that can take or give power to the government. It is also a famine of leadership in both major parties. Lots of sheep and speeches, but little action and education. I could continue for pages on this topic...

I will have to post the rest of this in a moment....ran up against the max characters - :-)

You say our perception of godliness doesn't matter and the Bible speaks clearly on itself. Then tell me why there isn't one religion? Why isn't there agreement as to what the Bible says and means? Shouldn't there be? Wouldn't that make the most sense? If it truely was the word of God and beneficial to all people wouldn't it transend our differences? Penetrate through everything?

At what point in history do you think this world has been blessed by God? The past 8 years? During the civil rights movement? During WW2? When?

So are we pulling a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah then? Who will be questioned this time as to the number of righteous people that exist in an effort to save the us?

"We probably deserve the worse mess we are about to make of this country." I'll give you props for including yourself in that statement. I don't believe we deserve the worst. I don't believe we'll get the worst. I believe we deserve equality, unity, respect, accountability, diversity, the ability to live a life independent from others views.

The conditions stated at 2 Timothy 3:1-7 have existed since Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden. That is a moot point.

Cantucwearebrothers -I appreciate your response. Respectfully, our perception of godliness does not matter. The Bible speaks clearly on itself. To illustrate my point, think about what you feel about the Bible, sin, Jesus, repentance, salvation, etc (absolute things that never change). Not what someone told you about it or what some stupid Christian did to you years ago - the biblical meaning of all of those things. Is the feeling good or bad? THAT is what I am talking about. I perceive that you have a contempt about what is written there, which illustrates what I am speaking of.

I do not seek to change you - just point out how it IS with you now, which illustrates my premise. If a nation has a contempt for the things of God, it is not likely that that nation will continue to enjoy the blessings of God. In a sense, then, I think the election of Obama is a judgment on America. God is just getting out of our way and letting it happen, as if to say "If you choose this way, I will let you go that way. But that way has consequences, and I will no longer stay them".

You actually do a great job of illustrating my point. Because of the wholesale rejection of God's word and true godliness by the "majority", we probably deserve the worse mess we are about to make of this country. As far as your "progression", you may have it, but remember that it is not without consequence if God indeed is real. 2 Timothy 3:1-7 is an excellent illustration of what you call progressive godliness. However, I will not give up hope while there is breath in me. We have a lot of work to do. If you would like to discuss specific policies and why each of them are wrong for this country, please let me know. In the meantime, kiss your freedom good-bye: Welcome to the USSA!

kcsteve

You are certainly entitled to your take on things.

"We have for years trashed virtue and godliness in our society..."

Whose virtues? Whose perception of godliness? The majority? Well the majority of the population doesn't feel those standards are acceptable anymore. The majority want to choose something different for themselves.

That doesn't mean that they no longer exist. It's called progression and I love it.

I think most folks have grossly overestimated what Obama will be able to deliver. As a conservative (not just a republican), I truly hope that he does not succeed with most of what he wants to do.

Do we as a country deserve him? Probably, but not in the good sense. We have for years trashed virtue and godliness in our society, and now our society has been allowed to elect the personification of that sentiment. I disagree that Obama's vision is "great", because the cost of that vision is our freedom.