News and Politics | November 15, 2008 | 173 comments

Atheist billboards to debut during holidays

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Manatee_man
A controversial billboard will likely be popping up in a neighborhood near you, just in time for the holidays.

The billboard is paid for by a Colorado atheist group. The message sits against a blue sky backdrop and says, "Don't believe in God? You're not alone."

Ten billboards will pepper metro Denver, while one will be put up in Colorado Springs."And we're putting them up in November and December because of the holidays, when church and state issues tend to come up a lot," said Joel Guttormson, with Metro State Atheists. "To let non-believers, free-thinkers and atheists know that they are not alone, especially in a country like ours that is predominantly Christian."

Pastor Willard Johnson of Denver's Macedonia Baptist Church called the billboards a desperate effort to discredit Christianity.

"The Bible is being fulfilled. It says that in latter days, you have all these kinds of things coming up, trying to disrupt the validity of Christianity," Johnson said. "If they don't believe in God, how do they believe they came about? We denounce what they are doing. But we do it with love, with gentleness, with decency and with compassion."

Bob Enyart, a Christian radio host and spokesman for American Right to Life, said it's hard to ignore the evidence.

"The Bible says that faith is the evidence of things not seen. Evidence. If we ignore the evidence for gravity or the Creator, that's really dangerous," said Enyart. "Income tax doesn't not exist because somebody doesn't believe in it. And the same is true with our Creator."

The billboards will go up Nov. 17. The atheist group, called Colorado Coalition of Reason or COCORE, also wanted to put up signs in Fort Collins and Greeley, but a billboard company there refused to carry the message.

Johnson said atheism is a rebellion against Biblical principals and the billboard will likely offend many Christians.

COCORE said this is about rights.First Amendment

"And I've read the First Amendment up and down and nowhere does it say that I have to care about your feelings. We're either 10 to 16 percent of the population, and the reason we don't really know is because people are scared to come out because they're ostracized by the people around them," said Guttormson.
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173 comments // Atheist billboards to debut during holidays

  • theBradiator
    • 0
      theBradiator  
    • I guess I think of it this way... Why fight fire with fire... Hatred with hatred. We have Extremists on both sides of the issue... We also have Peace Lovers. No one deserves to be harassed or persecuted for their beliefs. Instead of this fussing and fighting why don't we agree that we need to make Peace universal. I'd like to see a billboard about that!

    • 3 years ago
  • jesusbabe
    • 0
      jesusbabe  
    • Right or wrong?? It doesn't matter. Freedom of speech?? Yes that's great. Just please be careful what you say against God. Please think about this....what if you're right and i'm wrong, there is no God. I go on being a christian and when i die nothing happens. But what if you're wrong and i'm right and there is a God. Then you will spend eternity in hell, suffering forever and ever and it will never ever end. People say there are too many hipocrits. Please don't let a hipocrit stand in the way of your eternity.

    • 3 years ago
  • ReddFeary83
    • 0
      ReddFeary83  
    • jesusbabe:

      That's where I find my hang up with the whole God thing. Is he an all forgiving God, or does he begrudge you your right to question his existence? I mean, it's said we were made in his image, but that he is the perfection that we cannot achieve. Since we're -not- perfect, is there no margin for error or doubt for anyone, at any point and time in their life? It's difficult to decipher between the different sects of the religions of God just which is fact and fiction, when really it's neither; it's all faith. If a person were to lack that faith, or in fact feel as if they had been forsaken; do they burn in eternal hell for ever and ever, simply for being analytical?

    • 3 years ago
  • ReddFeary83
    • 0
      ReddFeary83  
    • Well at least it'll break up the monotony of the "got faith" adds I see everyday. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. It's a terrible thing to feel alone in any belief, this is no different.

    • 3 years ago
  • Moopak
  • EndoTheGreat
    • 0
      EndoTheGreat  
    • Johnson said. "If they don't believe in God, how do they believe they came about? We denounce what they are doing. But we do it with love, with gentleness, with decency and with compassion."

      we denounce them with love and compassion? how exactly do we do that?

      more importantly, how would Jesus have done that?

    • 3 years ago
  • whymrhymer
    • 0
      whymrhymer  
    • This tells me that there are atheists struggling to have "faith" in their non-belief. I guess that makes as much sense as believers struggling to believe.

      Ah haa! Athiesm IS a religion after all -- at least for some of us!!

    • 3 years ago
  • numinant
    • 0
      numinant  
    • whymrhymer:

      i think you're commenting more on your security with your own belief system than anyone else's.

      atheists simply don't wish to be made to feel marginalized. this isn't about faith, but affirmation.

    • 3 years ago
  • Hiway
    • 0
      Hiway  
    • ...Signs Signs Everywhere there's signs
      Blocking up the scenery Breaking up my mind
      Do this Don't do that Can't you read the sign...

    • 3 years ago
  • lj111
  • dreaddaze
  • ilmor
  • ilmor
    • 0
      ilmor  
    • What I find so surprising is how insecure atheists are, as so convincingly evidenced by this. Typically, when someone disagrees with a position, they have something to offer back, that they do believe in, to make a counterpoint. The Atheists have nothing to counter with except emptiness at the end of life.

      I think that most atheists behave this way because, deep inside their hearts, they know they are wrong and that they need to keep trying to convince themselves. They are certainly not going to effect the beliefs of good Christians and Jews.

      I'm going to start including them in my prayers along with the other troubled groups.

    • 3 years ago
  • kiltedandfree
    • 0
      kiltedandfree  
    • Isn't it grand that freedom of speech means that you can say what you want, as long as it doesn't harm another, and there will be no state forcing you to believe one way or another. How would you like to be in an Islamic country and put up that billboard? Why, the state would rape your 10 year old daughter then stone her to death for having extra-marital sex and tell everyone that she was happy with the verdict. This just happened in one of those third world backwater countries that think we are the infedels.

      Anyway, this billboard will stimulate discussion and debate, another great thing about America. Now our great new Oreo messiah Obama (did I just say that?) might try to change things to suit his way of seeing things, but time will tell.

      Notice the number of people in concealed weapons classes and the number of guns being purchased in the last 2 months. Kewl, huh?

    • 3 years ago
  • Glory77777
    • 0
      Glory77777  
    • I would be VERY HAPPY to see this billboard in my neighborhood. Smart move.
      Finally, somebody is brave enough to tell the truth. It is too sad though, that you need courage to talk about real things. Appreciate.

    • 3 years ago
  • thewarnerla
  • Moopak
  • tursiops
  • anglcazn
    • 0
      anglcazn  
    • I have a feeling that this was done to pick a fight. I don't really care if there is a fight. The only thing that will humor me is when people get really upset over the billboard. lol

      From the opinion from an atheist, how about we just celebrate the holidays without the religious meaning behind it. Isn't that what it's about anyways? :P

    • 3 years ago
  • deadpool
    • 0
      deadpool  
    • Anybody ever drive through the South? Or through the Dakotas'?

      If so, you'd see scores of 'Jesus Saves' and all these god messages on billboards that line the highway.

      I think ten or so Atheist billboards shouldn't cause too much trouble seeing how they're so plainly outnumbered.

    • 3 years ago
  • darkhorsejim
  • Neghie
  • kDrew_Productions
  • ReddFeary83
  • darinK
    • 0
      darinK  
    • I think you are full of it Krush. Catholics don't have missionaries like the mormons or jehovas or baptist. What if an atheist knocked on your door would you hate them. If you understand their intention it is hard to hate.

    • 3 years ago
  • darinK
    • 0
      darinK  
    • I know you atheists better be right. If just one of these religions is true they have a place for you after death.

    • 3 years ago
  • wilmo1975
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • Image
    • Ricky, Arm, current89,Others:

      Can we move this whole "Is Atheism a Religion" conversation to another post? We're steering this topic off track. You claim I'm not getting it, but I don't think you're getting it. Let's hash it out in a proper place, shall we?

    • 3 years ago
  • AntiFacistCanuck
    • 0
      AntiFacistCanuck  
    • Exactly! Not to mention the infringement on my ancestral memory of a red and white garbed sage who would climb down the ladder into people's winter pit homes through the smoke exiting the door hole in the roof, the sage came to distribute mushrooms for people to eat during the solstice celebrations. All the Christian stuff came much later.

    • 3 years ago
  • huffamoose2k
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • OMG I am so sick of explaining this. I should write it down in word and just copy and paste it whenever I run into this topic.

      Armageddon,
      Religion is defined by Wiki as "A religion is a set of tenets and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law."

      By the dictionary as "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

      Atheism does not include nor deal with any of those things. ONCE AGAIN, Atheism is the LACK of belief in a god/gods or a rejection of theism. It is not a religion, philosophy, doctrine, way of life or anything else.

      If you still disagree, please tell me why you think Atheism IS a religion.

    • 3 years ago
  • Armageddon_Now
    • 0
      Armageddon_Now  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      I think the conflict is how you're framing it as opposed to how I frame it. You say it's a lack of belief; this isn't necessarily so. You can actively believe something does not exist.

      Your provided dictionary definition can be used on either side. The words "usually" and "often" are qualifiers, meaning they are not necessarily always present.

      There ARE people that describe their religion as atheist. Would you tell them they are wrong?

    • 3 years ago
  • Armageddon_Now
  • current89
  • Armageddon_Now
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      Yes, I would tell them they were "wrong", however if you ask someone "What's your religion?" and they say "I'm an atheist", or they put 'atheist' on a questionnaire, that's reasonable There's not a lot of alternative words to use for that kind of thing and the general public lumps all of that stuff together.

      I didn't say atheism was a "lack of belief", I said it was a "lack of belief in god/gods". If you want to phrase it that "Atheists believe that god does not exist", that still doesn't make it a religion.

      Anyway, I asked YOU to tell me why atheism is a religion if you think it is. Can you do that?

    • 3 years ago
  • Ricky84
    • 0
      Ricky84  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      Look you’re still not getting it. Uncertainty does not mean rejection. Or in other words, just because you are skeptical of the existence of god does not require you to reject the concept. To reject the notion of god requires you to build upon that uncertainty. That is what you would call a belief structure and that is also why this billboard is a representation of dogma.

    • 3 years ago
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      YOU are not getting it. While individuals may find their own belief systems, Atheism itself DOES NOT HAVE ONE. Therefore ATHEISM itself is not a religion, despite what Atheists may believe in their personal life.I posted below a suggestion that we move this whole convo to another post that is more appropriate, what do you think?

    • 3 years ago
  • current89
    • 0
      current89  
    • Atheism is not a religion!...okay take a few moments to soak it in people. Deep breaths.

      Now I know I just blew your minds away, but doesn't it feel good to be informed?

      "The more you know"(then that NBC chime kicks in)

    • 3 years ago
  • Armageddon_Now
  • DeliaTheArtist
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • I think it should be understood that there is always bash lash from minority groups that feel underrepresented. These billboards and ads are an example of that as well as a way to stir conversation and comfort other atheists. Yes, comfort atheists, not piss off religious people. (Though some people seem to think that is the same thing.)

      When people feel marginalized and wrongly criticized they are less likely to tell the truth about what they believe (or don't believe.) There's enough proof on this thread alone of the misconceptions and hatred for atheists. Maybe someone who secretly doesn't believe in god but fears to tell people about it will find some peace with this message, a sense of community that atheists rarely have (see "herding cats!")

      The fact of the matter is if this board read "Believe in God? You are not alone!" There would be no story. It's common place. It's accepted. It's "normal." But when another viewpoint is presented, there's a freak out. Until people come to better understand and accept Atheism, you will most likely see more things like this promoting awareness.

    • 3 years ago
  • Johnny_Danger
    • 0
      Johnny_Danger  
    • THIs IS WRoNG!!!
      ATHEIcTS ARE HORRiBLE PaOPLE WHO SHOUlD STOP BeING BIG MEANIESx AND STOp TRYIeNG TO r CONSTaNTLY DISPROVEm PEOPLeS FAITH!!! nt

      WHO'S WITH ME!?j?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • 3 years ago
  • lindslee
  • Armageddon_Now
  • anglcazn
  • lindslee
    • 0
      lindslee  
    • 1. A comparison to gravity and income taxes... WOW that was rich! Proof of gravity: I dropped something and.... it fell.

      2. I listen to and am presented with (correction, I am bombarded with) Christians/religions and their opinions in my day to day life... yet if I voice my opinion that there is no God people flip their shit. Christians in Colorado Springs need to do a better job of keeping their opinions to themselves. I assure you, you will not change my mind and the Bible does not prove anything to me. Keep your faith, be happy in it, but don't try to persuade people to join your flock... it makes them angry!

      3. I don't want to see this atheist billboard anymore than I want to listen to someone's opinion of God.

      Religion is just something people need to keep to themselves. No one is going to change my opinion on something based on a billboard and, if someone is truly influenced enough by a billboard to change their stance on something that is simply sad.

      Go forth and gather facts!
      Watch Religulous!
      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/

    • 3 years ago
  • Armageddon_Now
  • lindslee
  • Armageddon_Now
  • DeliaTheArtist
  • Armageddon_Now
  • lindslee
    • 0
      lindslee  
    • Armageddon_Now:

      Armageddon, are you drunk?

      You said "isn't this the opposite of what they think"... when I read that I understood you to be saying that the definition of Atheism was NOT a non-belief in God. I assumed you were maybe crossing Atheism with what Agnostics believed. So, I referenced the dictionary. So I was simply saying that I was confident that the atheist group responsible for the billboard would have verified their beliefs before posting them on the highway.

    • 3 years ago
  • Armageddon_Now
    • 0
      Armageddon_Now  
    • Armageddon_Now:

      I like the idea that they "verified" their beliefs before putting this up, like they hadn't thought about it before.

      They said "you're not alone." I joked that's the opposite of their beliefs, because if there is no deity, we are alone.

    • 3 years ago
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • Armageddon_Now:

      "If there is no deity, we are alone"
      Then who are you talking to right now?

      They meant you are not alone in terms of like minded people. If anything, your joke points out a major difference in the viewpoints of some believers and atheists: believers tend to need god to feel comforted and "not alone", while atheists don't.

    • 3 years ago
  • Armageddon_Now
  • DeliaTheArtist
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • Ricky said something about atheists needing a "belief system" to take you from doubt to disbelief. I disagree.
      I've posted it before, but I feel that Dawkin's scale of belief is useful to understand the gradients of belief and non-belief.
      1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.
      2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.
      3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.
      4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.
      5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.
      6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.
      7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.

      I would consider myself a 6. I leave the "uncertainty principle", if you will, open to an extent should there arise complete concrete proof either way.

    • 3 years ago
  • smootheking
    • 0
      smootheking  
    • Why divide???
      it is time to unify.
      i see no reason to go around and waving a controversial difference in peoples' faces at a time like this.

    • 3 years ago
  • J_Jammer
    • 0
      J_Jammer [removed]  
    • HAHAHAHAHA.....how are they not like a religion?

      I hate seeing religious billboards.
      I hate seeing any billboards that are not commercials for businesses. I don't want to see personal opinions. I just don't.

      I see enough of that online, why must i see it when I drive?

    • 3 years ago
  • DeliaTheArtist
  • Armageddon_Now
  • DeliaTheArtist
  • Armageddon_Now
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • J_Jammer:

      I don't think I am. Jammer is allowed not to like bilboards. Whatevs. I'm not going to argue that point because there is nothing to argue. I'm not "ignoring" anything, I was just addressing the piece of his statement that I disagreed with.

    • 3 years ago
  • J_Jammer
  • katedarling
    • 0
      katedarling  
    • J_Jammer:

      j_jammer,

      Delia is saying the billboard addresses the existence of atheists.

      The billboard isn't promoting the idea of atheism, it just reassures atheists that they're not alone.

      Which is A FACT.

    • 3 years ago
  • 02
    • 0
      02  
    • Let's seee - Wasn't it Saul ?, the social climbing Jew, who went country to country murdering all Christians, beating out the brains of babies, etc - until right when the Christians were almost all gone - Whoe -The last of them co-opted the gentiles! Suddenly seeing the way to higher ground, and around his immediate uppers, he changed his name to Paul. Ah, well, typical Christian after all.

    • 3 years ago
  • Ragan
    • 0
      Ragan  
    • a few billboards will not make a dent. When you consider that there is a church on almost every street and more and more megachurch's are being built all the time. Religion is a big multi-billiopn dollar empire and will never come down no matter how much proof there is that it is a big multi-millenium hoax. I just reeducated myself on You Tube and was reminded of the fact that Constantine the father of Christianity murdered his own wife and sons. And it was Justinium who massacred 30,000 of his own rebels in the Hippodrome and how Basil renamed Basil the Bulgar after he destroyed the eyesight of Samuels troops but left on man every so ofter with one eye so they could find their way back to Bulgaria. Geez our early christian brotherhood was filled with brotherly love and compasssion. Nothing like forgiving your enemy as long as you have your vengeance first. It s amazing you can go to Google Earth and zero iin on Istambul and see trhe remains of the Hippodrome but the years have removed the blood. Then The Ottoman Turks invaded and spilled some more blood. Too between the 15th and 19th century 11 million American Indians were slaughtered. There has been so much blood spilled on this earth it should be renamed the big red marble.

    • 3 years ago
  • NeverTheSameColor
  • arcticspirit
    • 0
      arcticspirit  
    • And angels cry. Some people do too.
      I respect your right to not believe.

      But the cards and the sign made me instantly saddened, I cannot explain why.

    • 3 years ago
  • wilycomet
  • oR2o
    • 0
      oR2o  
    • So in Colorado the Atheist are putting up 10 signs to eliminate the fear.

      While in Illinois they are putting up signs that read "Authentic Jesus" .
      I drive down the street and it infuriates me that every 5 houses has one of these signs up. I don't care what your beliefs JUST DON"T PUSH IT ON ME.

      The Colorado signs remind me of the Got Milk ads, it wasn't pushy just presented. Hundreds of Authentic Jesus signs are irritating especially because the tenth house is a church with a CROSS.

      As for Liberal_Extinction's contribution What you decide to do in your private life is of no concern of mine. As long as it is not going to effect anyone out side of your house, you do what you want I will have no say in your decision and YOU nor anyone else should have any say what decisions I make in my home.

    • 3 years ago
  • justright
  • justright
  • metalcookiesxy70
  • InformedTexan
  • intelligenceisacurse
  • metalcookiesxy70
  • InformedTexan
  • krush_productions
    • 0
      krush_productions  
    • If the catholics can bang on my door at 8:00am telling me Jesus loves me and wants me in church, I see no problem with this billboard. Equal representation right? freedom of speech?

    • 3 years ago
  • Cuddlebones
  • darinK
    • 0
      darinK  
    • krush_productions:

      That is definately freedom of speech. It is disturbing that it attacks a religous group during time of their religous holiday. Who is this atheist group supporting? They are attacking followers of christ so I have a good guess who they are supporting. I just PRAY they know .

    • 3 years ago
  • ilmor
  • Cuddlebones
  • samthesixth
  • king60
    • 0
      king60  
    • Religion,to me,is the most confusing and hard to believe subject I've ever known.I'm sure we were put here for a reason,but the bible has so much"fiction"written in it(by man!)that it makes me wonder what really is.

    • 3 years ago
  • DeliaTheArtist
  • kennyJ
    • 0
      kennyJ  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      Ohh it's my opinion about the challenges inherent with the psychology of our global belief systems- Our IDEAS get in the way of PERCEPTION- Religion is a BELIEF SYSTEM- but so is atheism- and they both create psychological DIVISION between believer and non-believer - That 'simple' division is a big source of the "lack of EMPATHY" which allows much of the world most heinous atrocities.

      So REJECT atheism... well technically reject all organized thoughts about GOD(or no god) and simply respect each person on their merits.

    • 3 years ago
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      Atheism is NOT a belief system! Atheists CAN have empathy!

      I'll say it for the millionth time, Atheism is simply the LACK of belief in a god or gods. That's it. There's no other doctrine, dogma, rule system, etc. Therefore, it is not a belief system.

      I agree that we should respect each other, so on and son on. Most people think that. The division between believers and non believers is just on the opinion of god. Just because people don't agree about everything doesn't mean we can't be respectful and have our viewpoints heard.

    • 3 years ago
  • crimson_saint
  • current89
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      It's not just atheists that believe in evolution!

      Atheists believe whatever they want. They point I'm trying to make is that Atheism is not a statement of belief like religions are. If you say you are Christian, I can assume you believe in god and Jesus Christ as your savior, right? If you say you are an Atheist, all I can assume is that you don't believe in god. Filling in the philosophy and whatnot is up to the individual.

      Current89 is correct however, a lot of Atheists identify with humanist principals. I do too. I'm also fond of Buddhist philosophy and I follow science as much as I can.

    • 3 years ago
  • current89
  • Ricky84
    • 0
      Ricky84  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      Delia you cannot have your cake and eat it too. To say Atheism is simply the lack of faith in a higher power is incorrect. Doubt is not exclusive of atheism, theists and agnostics can be uncertain about the existence of a higher power. However it does require a belief structure to move beyond simple uncertainty to the realm of disbelief. Therefore atheism does require a doctrine or rule system.

      Atheism can also be personal and dogmatic( hello this is a thread about an atheistic billboard which is an expression of a group belief lol!) Whether or not its organized makes no difference. The belief in god is not restricted to organized religion anymore then atheism is restricted to Humanists.

    • 3 years ago
  • DeliaTheArtist
    • 0
      DeliaTheArtist  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      "However it does require a belief structure to move beyond simple uncertainty to the realm of disbelief. Therefore atheism does require a doctrine or rule system." Really?
      Can you tell me what the belief structure of Atheism is?

    • 3 years ago
  • current89
  • DeliaTheArtist
  • current89
  • Ricky84
    • 0
      Ricky84  
    • DeliaTheArtist:

      It’s impossible to be certain of the existence or lack of existence of anything through uncertainty. That’s why faith is so important to the big three religions. To know, with absolute certainty, is a perversion of faith. This is also why Dawkins scale is bullshit. Dawkins’ does not understand the basic tenets of religion so he is completely incapable of creating a scale to measure a person’s belief in theism.

      “If we regard faith itself as guaranteeing the truth reality of its contents, then we declare it to be in fact the sustaining basis of its contents. But that entails a radical perversion of its nature. The nature of faith is to rely on god as other than itself and thus to have the basis of its existence outside itself. Only so long as the reality of god and his historical revelation unequivocally precedes the subjectivity of faith can believers be certain that they trust in god and not in themselves.”

      Religion is the cultivation of faith and devotion through uncertainty and not the unquestionable belief in the sanctity of ones opinion. So for that reason 1 and 7 on his scale is impossible because no mentally stable or truthful person can say they completely believe or disbelieve in god.

      “De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there. ”

      Key word here is assumption

      “De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.”

      Again the key word here is assumption.

      Through uncertainty each side develops a suitable belief structure to govern their lives.

    • 3 years ago
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