Texas Putting Religion in School

It never ceases to amaze me that when "Creation Science" proponents are met with a single post outlining the questions and pointing out the fallacies such as were pointed out in my post above, there is never a person who comes along behind it and gives any plausible explanation.

The confusing of the term "evolution" with "the origin of the species theory" is never admitted.

Neither does anyone tackle the tougher questions regarding dinosaurs, Noah, saber-toothed tigers and woolly mammoths.

Their silence speaks volumes but it doesn't explain why their BLIND allegiance to a narrow and easily disproved doctrine of a literal translation of the Bible is still so prevalent.

Even though many other verses such as the consumption of shellfish, catfish, pork and other meats, and even animal sacrifices, if taken literally, would create serious problems today, they elevate little but "creationism" to the gravity of as serious "an abomination before God" as homosexuality.

The sad fact remains that within almost the same denomination there are major differences that cause permanent splits in the church.

A for instance would be the United Presbyterian believing in predestination and then splitting the Church and giving rise to the Cumberland Presbyterians who did not espouse predestination.

The establishment of Religious history or doctrine does NOT belong in schools, even in the redneck state of Texas where I am surrounded by dullards.who still voted for Bush and would no doubt elect him to a third term if they could.

From the time he was a young business owner, he left not one single company he ran or state that he ran "in the black" and eventually left the U.S. with 8 years of a stagnant or declining median family wage and a legacy of unchecked power, wasteful spending. preemptive war and abuse, the likes of which I hope are never surpassed..

Evolution is FACT.

There is no one who can disprove evolution. There may be arguments against the origin of the species but the very simple concept of evolution cannot be disputed.

A perfect example is the that of the moth in tome_erau's post. Add the mutations of the influenza virus and you have another form of "evolution". There are thousands of other examples.

Now, if you creationists want to argue, argue over the origin of the species theory. You have lost the creationism argument by an idiotic use of semantics.

I would like for just one Creationist to explain why carbon-dated, pre-historic cave drawings show animals like the saber-toothed tiger and the woolly mammoth while there is not one that shows their fellow cave dwellers launching spears at dinosaurs.

The fact that Noah brought no dinosaurs, woolly mammoths, saber-toothed tigers (all of which have been proven to exist by the discovery of mummified carcasses or carcasses trapped in tar pits like those found in La Brea California) should blow the fool out of your theory that all the animals were created in the same week that supposedly saw God create the Earth, the Solar System and Man.

The simple science shows that saber-toothed tigers and wooly mammoths co-existed with early man and that early man pre-dated a "literal" account of the Biblical Creation, Science also proves that dinosaurs did NOT co-exist with but pre-dated man by tens of millions of years.

If some "Creation Scientist", a term I believe to be one of the greatest examples of an oxymoron ever, can explain why Noah defied God and put Bengal Tigers on the Ark and left Saber-toothed tiger behind and did the same with Elephants vs. Mammoths and the same with Alligators and Komodo Dragons vs. Dinosaurs, and Vultures vs. pterodactyls, I'll shut up and listen.

But until then, don't try to use narrow-minded fundamentalism to indoctrinate children in a blatantly obtuse power-play that attempts to grow your very particularly exclusive brand of "Christianity".

By the way, a God-fearing Conservative Republican judge ruled AGAINST the Dover. PA, school board and called their attempt to teach "Creation Science" in Dover, PA, schools a "thinly-veiled attempt to make an end run around the Constitution".

The previously-mentioned "Scopes Monkey Trial" should be the last time we have to revisit the narrow path of trying to establish a fundamentalist Christian religion that exclude MANY other Christian faiths by its very inflexibility.

If the radical "literal Bible Fundies" had their way, there would be no Judeo in the term "Judeo-Christian". Neither would there be room for Christian Scientists, Mormons, Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists, Church of Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses, many Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Penticostals, Catholics or Non-Denominationalists.

Religion and Evolution are NOT both theories. Theories are meant to be disproved. A theory simply says, "I think something world like this ... " People test the theory to see if the results show true. Later, someone will find a better way and say, "No, I have a new theory which is better ... ." and we test and if true then use the new theory. This is the way science works.

In religion, there is god. How do we test ? Invisible ?? Speaks to political leaders around the world (Catholic, Anglican, Shiite, Sunni, Baptist, etc) and tells them to kill the others ???

Religion is not science. A Bible is not science.

Hence our desire not to have YOUR religious beliefs in science classrooms.

Religion or "Creationism" should be taught side by side with Evolution. In most peoples eyes, they are both theories and if they were to be taught together it would expose children to a better variety, if that is a good word to use.

I am a firm believer in a persons right to chose how to live their life and giving them all around exposure to many ideas and principles would be a grand idea!

Yup, I am a Christ-Follower and I am also apparently a hick and ignorant, but I still have the right to believe what i want and to share that belief with others who will care to listen. I never want to force my beliefs on people or belittle them, I only want to share. You all have rights and let no one ever try to take them from you.

The "rationalism" that many of the people on this site seem to think they have is nothing more than an opinion or point of view. Just as much religion is a point of view. Whether you realize it or not, it takes just as much faith to believe in evolution or the Big Bang as it does to believe in any religion.

With all the things religion has caused, i don't think it should be any where near schools.

good idea!

Teaching creationism in public schools has been prohibited since the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1926.

I'd like to address the rumor that there is no hard scientific evidence to support evolution. The first, and most obvious evidence, is the influenza virus. Every year everyone on the news is saying “there’s a new flu this year.” This is because the virus is very simple making the random changes predicted by the theories of evolution more common and more noticeable.
A more convincing example is the peppered moth in England. Moths have been documented and studied in great detail over the last 200 years and in the early 1800’s the peppered moth was identified by its light colored wings to camouflage with the light colored trees that populated the area. During the industrial revolution English factories began putting heavy amounts of pollution into the air during all the surrounding trees black with soot. Over the course of about a hundred years the peppered moth slowly began to change the color of its wings to nearly black in color. The stages of the evolution are well documented and it serves as tangible proof of Darwin’s “theory of evolution.”

Well first I do not claim to be the intellectual type, nor do I presume to know a lot, All I have to offer is my experience.

I grew up in California. I attended a Private school all the way up until High School, which is when I decided that I wanted to go to public school. In the private Junior High I went to I was struggling to get even just mediocre grades. When I went to the local public school I was placed in classes like Biology and Algebra 2. (Attending these classes with me were many Seniors getting ready to graduate.) These classes were a dumbed down version of the classes that I previously took in the private school. I ended up being ranked #4 in my graduating class of 457 people.

And yes in the private school we did learn creationism as well as evolution, and yes, I was only taught about "The absolute proven FACT" of the theory of evolution. (If my memory serves me correctly, a theory was not proven, when something is Proven/Solid/Concrete it becomes Law. I have never heard "Evolutionary Law" or "The Law's of Evolution" have you?)

I am currently working in Texas and my son, at four, is already being taught a little bit about evolution in the public pre-school he is attending. I don't believe that evolution should be pulled from our curriculum, but I do believe that when students are belittled by their teachers and scoffed at by their piers for even mentioning Creationism (Like I was) then there is something wrong with that.

I am fairly young (25) so I can not attest for all of what I am about to say, but this is how I understand it. Someone had mentioned in an earlier blog that we need to have bright graduates so that we can be competitive out there in this global economy. America used to be the undisputed superpower in this world not so long ago. Where did the Car come from? The Airplane? Light bulbs? the A-Bomb? and all sorts of other stuff, The good old US of A, and guess what? Way back then the public school system only taught creationism, and even had prayer in school. I'm not saying that the removal of God from our schools, and our nation as a whole is the only reason why our country is in the Shiter now, but maybe they had something going on right?

As for separation of Church and State, I can't help but laugh at the twisted beast that we have let this become. I had eluded to the fact that I work out here in Texas, and yes I do so happen to work for the Federal Government. In my agency the tattoo policy is that you have to have all tattoo's covered. I have a Celtic cross on my forearm. (To me this tattoo is more a tribute to my Irish heritage than my religious sentiment.) My tattoo would be exposed if I wore a short sleeve shirt. Therefore I am required to wear long sleeve shirts. I have plenty of co-workers that have tattoo's on their arms that do not follow the policy of covering them up, and have freely admitted to me that they have never been approached by a supervisor and asked to cover their tattoo's. The funny thing is, is that I have been told to wear long sleeve shirts by those same supervisors. Religious persecution??? I'm not going to say so, but it does make me wonder. I doubt I could get the ACLU to stick up for me and say that this is the government telling me I have to suppress my religion.

Just my opinion, Peace to all, and may God Bless America!

Religion is a repressive organization. It holds humanity in bondage. Many many wars have been fought and literally millions of people have died from religion itself. Take into mind that these are all written by man. Also take to mind that these are all learned. Just because you have learned something doesn't necessarly make it right. What gets me is that people actually believe that god blesses more than others. Like for instance the phrase "God bless America." If there is an all loving and knowing God, why would it choose to bless America and not Iraq of worse Sudan? Language is our biggest barrier.
Religous organizations and current political systems are crumbling because they are out of date and are no longer able to keep up with societys needs.

I agree with Lisa_Lisa. Yes, there are idiots everywhere but in Kansas, Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana, and I'd add Missouri idiots are the end result of their education system. These states cultivate their idiots.

It's by design. Idiots are MUCH easier to control. They are the Republican Base.

Well, Lisa-Lisa we all know there are also some ridiculously ignorant people in California, Michigan, Illlinois, Massachusettes, and on and on....ignorance of the particular's state population is truly "in the eye of the beholder"

why do we accept the bible as truth? is it the same words as when first recorded? or changed to meet the changes in society? when a new bible comes on the market is it translated from the original works or from the translations of the scribes as it was being read to them. Words change in meaning, is that taken into consideration. One just has to look at the case of Mary Magdalene to realize that for centuries this story was taught wrong, how many others out there are wrong. We know that there were two authors of Genesis and that it was impossible for Moses to have written that along with other chapters. Paul comes along and sees a group that is falling apart, tells them he was visited by their leader to join, he changes the rules and the words of the leader. And this we are expect to based our life on.

The apostles who were at the scene when Jesus died could not decide on his last words or the events that followed so how do you expect writers coping other peoples words down to get them correct.

And remember all you good Christians, Jesus was a Jew, he followed Jewish traditions and law. He never once said to build a church in his name. His words were and always were to honor the Father.

Well at home here in Texas I was always told about Christ and all that mumbo jumbo. Then at school I was taught about evolution. Creationism vs. evolution? No wonder our youth is screwed up. I personally believe in evolution. We have viual evidence that it possibly took place. I have never seen god or burning bushes that talk. There is also a reason why our current religous institutions are crumbling is because they are no longer relivent. No on really lives by those standards anyways. Especially our governments. We don't need this crap in school. Maybe in world lit. as a history lesson.

There is a huge hick area within the U.S. These are ridiculously ignorant people in Kansas, Texas, Mississippi, and Louisiana. Only the most idiotic in America would elect these morons to office.

Excerpt from the article :

The amended draft now reads (underlined text represents words added by the amendment, strike-through text indicates words deleted)

(8)(A) evaluate a variety of fossil types, proposed transitional fossils, fossil lineages, and significant fossil deposits with regard to their appearance, completeness, and rate and diversity of evolution and assess the arguments for and against universal common descent in light of this fossil evidence;

To explain what is objectionable about these changes, I will quote selections from a response written by the Earth and Space Science TEKS Working Group that produced the original draft (complete text can be found at Texas Citizens for Science):

First, the phrase “with regard to their appearance, completeness, and rate of diversity of evolution” should not have been removed since it is essential to the purpose of the standard, which is to evaluate fossils and their evolution.

Second, the phrase about "arguments for and against universal common descent" substituted for the struck phase is totally unscientific. There are no good arguments in modern science “against universal common descent,” which has been accepted by biologists for over 130 years, so the phrase is asking for something that authors and publishers cannot honestly supply.

Finally, transitional fossils are not “proposed.” There is no doubt of their existence. They exist in the fossil record and are well-known by paleontologists, so insertion of the word “proposed” makes this phrase unscientific, since it suggests a false uncertainty.

In conclusion, Student Expectation 8A should be returned to its original language. Otherwise, the ESS standards will be permanently weakened and damaged.

Just as troubling was an amendment McLeroy succeeded in adding to the standards for biology:

Science concepts. The student knows evolutionary theory is a scientific explanation for the unity and diversity of life. The student is expected to:

(B) analyze and evaluate the sufficiency or insufficiency of common ancestry to explain the sudden appearance, stasis, and sequential nature of groups in the fossil record;

This wording implies that taxonomic groups appear suddenly in the fossil record. While there are certainly many groups with incomplete fossil records, the wording insinuates that groups may have been created suddenly. The wording is also problematic in that it implies that common ancestry is invoked to "explain" stasis, or the incompleteness of the fossil record.

Science is about looking at nature and trying to figure out how it works. If someone has a good idea, we test it, if it fails, science goes to something else, if it works, we use it until something else proves better.

Newton's ideas on physics worked until Einstein came along. Someday, Einstein may be overturned as a great many that have gone before him.

Christian Religion is the study of God. At no point in this study does one overturn God. Religion is not and will never be a science or vice-versa. We must not allow ourselves to fall into the same trap of ignorance as befalls the current middle east. It's a circular belief - How do we know there's a God ? Because the Bible says so. And why do we believe the Bible ? Because it is the word of God ... ???

Our children will compete in a global economy. We must produce the finest Doctors, Engineers, and Scientists in the world to remain competitive. This will only happen if we teach logic and the scientific process to our children. This is not something we can wait until the child goes to college to then have them "pick it up".

Think of an Olympic skater, or wrestler, or just about any of those athletes. When did they start their training ? I'd bet the farm they were younger than 7 in most cases. Same goes for world class Mathematicians, Engineers, etc.

Not only do creationists make our state of Texas a laughingstock in the world (important becuase it can cost jobs) but their parameters would provide our children with a poor scientific framework which will hurt them in the future.

To the following representatives :
Bob Craig; Mary Helen Berlanga; Pat Hardy; Rene Nunez; Mavis Knight, Rick Agosto, Lawrence Allen, Geraldine Miller

Please hang in there. God bless you. You are no doubt being inundated by emails. I am writing this because I have two beautiful children. One will go to Yale next year, the other just turned 7. You're vote will either help, or hurt our babies.

Putting religion in our science classes will hurt Texas children.

To the pro-religion-in-the-classroom bloc: Barbara Cargill, Cynthia Dunbar, Don McLeroy , Gail Lowe, Ken Mercer, Terri Leo, David Bradley

Your pious posturing is damaging not only our state but our children as well. You've proved you don't deserve to be in office and we will fight to have you removed as soon as possible.

Teaching religion in a non religion based school is not a very good idea, teaching religion in school should be a choice not a requirement..it interferes with home life, personal beliefs and not to mention there is supposed to separation of church and state..Thats why theres catholic schools and sunday schools..Why bog the kids down with more work?..teachers cant even get some students to pass gym let alone a religion class..

Houston, we have a problem. There is a serious problem here. What about the idea of seperation of church and state? We are to have no official state religion, unlike the Brits, whose official state church is the Church of England. If religion gets injected into the science classroom, there is a 100% guarantee that it will be of the evangelical Protestant "Bible Thumper" variety.
If I want my kids to learn religion, I'll be damned if they're going to get it through the public school system. Evangelical protestantism is not something I want my kids taught!! This is why we have a democracy, and not a theocracy!!

I'm not against teaching religion in schools. Actually, I think people might better understand each other if they were forced to learn about different religions. However, teaching religion in science class is unexcussable and rediculous. It should be taught in a social sciences class or a philosophy class. Evolution is the theory of the scientific community, just like Newton's equations and the definition of an atom, therefore that is what should be taught in science class. If you want the religious theory then take a different class.