Jolly Black Slaves

Hi Robk,

Thanks for your remarks, but I hope you can do some true introspective thinking. If this is not an offensive tradition, why does almost everyone from outside of the Netherlands (and many inside as well) find it deeply offensive? Why are these images so shocking to the rest of the world?

I realize it is difficult to look critically at traditions that we grew up with as children, but there is simply no reason to continue to justify painting your faces black as Sinterklaas' helper. Why not other colors? Why does it have to be black?

Your comments to Benji_Magreth were rude and slightly offensive. The idea that she is the prejudiced one is absurd, and your questioning of what she is doing for her community, when she clearly posted a video of an alternative holiday party is unfounded.

This tradition is rooted in racism and as you call it, a "black page in the Dutch history." Why continue to remind people of this tradition? You write: "Should I be angry at German people of what happened in the second world war?" If the Germans continued to celebrate a holiday that reminded the world of their role in World War II, I think you would be offended as well.

Well, I think we have a different opinion about what is wrong. You say that something's wrong when someone thinks it's offensive to him/her. I think something is wrong when something is done by someone with the intention of offending someone. That's a big difference. Dutch people do not see Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet as being something discriminating. That's why I defend this tradition.

The Dutch weren't responsible for the apartheid till the 90s, that was my point (sorry, my English is not so well, so that's probably the reason I wasn't clear). Of course I agree with you that it's a terrible thing and terrible things happened.

Hi Benji_Magreth,

I just read your message and I feel sorry for you. There is a lot of hate and frustration in your words. I'm truly sorry for that.

I'm a white man from the Netherlands (I hate to say that, because it presumes a difference between white and black, and I don't think there is) and I never, never considered a black man less worthy than a white man. Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet never changed that, not even when I was little. And I feel sorry for the kids who are being bullied because they're black, but white kids are bullied too because of what they look like (for example a big nose or big ears). Kids always look for something of someone's appearance to bully him/her with. Don't think that black kids won't be bullied by other kids because of their color when Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet wouldn't be celebrated anymore.

Before I saw this documentairy I never even considered Zwarte Piet as being a slave of Sinterklaas (and I still don't). You are the one that sees that connection, you are the one that really seperates white people from black people. You are the one with the prejudices.

It's easy to say that someone else (in this case an entire population) is discriminating when they can not defend themselves (this counts for the maker of this documentairy as well). If you really feel discriminated in the Netherlands, what are you doing to prevent it? It's great that you voluntairily organize these events for kids, but in your video I only see black kids. You say that "they have 2 know their places". So is this their place, seperated from white kids? (disclaimer: I don't disapprove it, I'm just curious for an answer).

And my last point, as reaction to your point of APARTHEID: yes, this is a black page in the Dutch history and I'm not proud of it. Not at all. But please: get over it. This happened hundreds of years ago. Should I be angry at German people of what happened in the second world war? Or should I hate Spanish people, because they attacked us in the 17th century? If I would be angry because of that, I would be the one that's responsible for keeping the problem alive.

It's unbelievable to me that so many people accept this as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It simply isn't.

This tradition goes way back in our history. And yes, when the Dutch started to celebrate Saint Nicholas day, it might had to do with racism. I totally agree with that and therefore I don't like the history of this tradition.

The tradition might not have changed, but hey, perceptions do! Nowadays there is nothing racist about it. Black Petes are seen as very friendly and warm people who help Saint Nicholas deliver presents and candy to the kids, not as slaves that have to work very hard. It is true that many different cultures (African cultures as well!) celebrate this tradition with us.

And when are you insulting someone? To me it's all about intention. When one has the intention to insult someone, he/she may feel insulted. If not, don't feel insulted! If you don't agree with this, imagine how it is to live in a multicultural country with many people with different perspectives. You can't do or say anything, because there would always be someone who might feel insulted by that. It would be impossible to live in such a country.

By the way, on Dutch television there are often documentaries about other countries having difficulties with racism (Germany, France, and very often the USA). I don't take that too serious, because I know I don't even know half of the story. And I know that it's very easy to create a kind of negative mood in television, since television wants to sell too.

And my last remark: although I'm in disagree with the one who created this documentary and I don't think he has got the right angle of perspective, the quality of the documentary is very good. I hope that he'll make another documentary about black Pete one day, and this time how it is perceived by normal Dutch people.

This movie makes me upset with the people in the Netherlands and Fox Kids for continuing to produce shows that support this. Continuing to celebrate these "zwarte petes", more specifically, dressing up in "blackface", and denying that these images don't result in children seeing black people as a lesser people is absurd. I showed some other people this movie and they felt the same way.

"I think [celebrating zwarte petes] it even solves a rascisme issue in the long run, those little children all learn that the black people are kind and generous and will not have a prejudice negative effect at all." -Carinpixels
WHEN WOULD THE CHILDREN HAVE EVER THOUGHT THAT BLACK PEOPLE WERE ANY DIFFERENT THAN THEMSELVES (not "kind and generous" like the child) IF THEIR PARENTS OR THEIR SOCIETY DID NOT CONDITION THEM TO THINK SO!?

Children don't understand that they are categorized as black until someone close to them tells them so. Furthermore, children with lighter skin do not think there is a behavior difference associated with darker skin until someone older makes that statement. It comes in the form of comments that their parents make when watching tv, when parents talk with their friends and the child hears you refer to a black person in a jokingly negative way, or when you show them a a person in "black face" acting like a fool, crazily throwing boxes or gifts everywhere.

As for the movie itself, what I liked the most was the music in the background, it was very eerie. It gave a feeling like this is supposed to be happy, but there is an evil somewhere in this song. I also liked how shots everyday items were included to get a feel of what other items are out there. Oh and the man's statement of... "If they give me one reason why they have to change it, we will listen. But is there really a reason to change it?"

As a dutch woman, who has celebrated sinterklaas as a child, and also have this tradition ongoing with my own children I'm shocked and in disbelief on how you represent children's festive.
Where's the bad movie on Santa's elves, using lilluputters in almost every movie is just as shocking.

I do understand how people can be offended by it, but I think there's a very negative input given here.

The Netherlands is a multi cultural country, we have Marocans, Turkish, Africanes, Egyptian, Hindo people and way way more cultures. When you go to the harbor of your own hometown, there are children from every race and nation singing the same sinterklaas songs, getting the same treats and hand from zwarte piet, all parents from all different cultures complain about the cold, and enjoy these moments with their children.

We've got churches for every culture, we got moscee's, norwegian staffelchurches, synagoges, and we have Sinterklaas. It would be fun if America watched the history books and try to figure out where your jolly Santa comes from, you will be shocked...
Here's the true history of your santa:
http://www.rootsinholland.com/sinterklaas.htm

I think it even solves a rascisme issue in the long run, those little children all learn that the black people are kind and generous and will not have a prejudice negative effect at all.
Unless offcourse you have a child like mine, that runs off to an african male in the middle of summer to ask for a duplo train....that made me worry, but the male in question was very polite and he understood that it could be confusing for little children. We got talking and I apologized, this african male and his family are now good friends of ours.....Something that wouldnt have happened if my weird kid would be a nice little toddler :)

it echoes the same sentiments as presented during the Jim Crow era. i find it extremely hard to swallow that after numerous trips down a chimney can turn a white person black and with such prominent african features.

this may have started out as a fairy tale, but i'm no kid. i can clearly see the thought process behind perpetuating such "traditions". i'm offended by all of it, and sickened by the remarks made by some of the dutch people that it's not meant to be racist, because it clearly is.

thanks for bringing this to light. i now know to avoid the netherlands around the holidays...