KEITH OLBERMANN: Washington states makes seven on same-sex marriage. But, in New Jersey, a stiff hurdle still lies in the way of legalization. Our third story on the "Countdown" — the New Jersey Governor Chris Christie and his vow to veto marriage equality — the Marriage Equality Bill — did not stop that state's Senate from passing that bill by a vote of 24-16 today, sending it to the state Assembly for a vote on Thursday. It will pass there too.
And it was a historic day in Olympia, Washington where Governor Chris Gregoire signed legislation making that state the 7th to legalize same-sex matrimony.
(Excerpt from video clip) CHRIS GREGOIRE: I'm proud that our same-sex couples will no longer be treated as separate but equal, they will be equal in the great state of Washington.
OLBERMANN: After years of ambivalence, Gregoire announced her own support of gay marriage just last month. And in a recent interview, the governor was asked whether she would reach out to fellow Governor Christie to make an appeal on behalf of same-sex marriage.
(Excerpt from video clip) GREGOIRE: I would feel very comfortable sharing with him my personal journey and then sharing with him the overwhelming response that I've received and how good I feel about myself today.
OLBERMANN: Meanwhile, in Washington state today, social-conservative hero and/or civil right villain, GOP candidate Rick Santorum shared his personal journey with gay-marriage opponents and Republican lawmakers. Voters nationwide have rejected same sex marriage in all 31 referenda on the issue.
New Jersey Democrats say that same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue and as such should not be put to a popular vote. But the Garden State's head honcho is pushing for a public vote in the fall.
Christie talked civil rights and referendums at a town hall last month:
(Excerpt from video clip) CHRIS CHRISTIE: I think people would have been happy to have a referendum, you know, on civil rights rather than fighting and dying in the streets in the south.
OLBERMANN: Okay, we can go into that for about six hours.
Dan Savage writes the syndicated column "Savage Love," he's the co-founder of the It Gets Better project, his book "It's Gets Better" now out in paperback and the TV special "It Gets Better" airs on MTV and Logo, next Tuesday, February 21st. Good to see you, Dan.
DAN SAVAGE: Good to see you too, Keith.
OLBERMANN: I suggested this at the start of the news hour — that if you're going to put same-sex marriage to a public referendum, you might as well also have a same-sex — a public referendum on whether or not it's okay — speaking as an overweight person, whether or not it's okay for overweight men, like me and Chris Christie, to get married — not to each other, but to women in the state of New Jersey. It's just as ludicrous, isn't it?
SAVAGE: It is just as ludicrous. We don't put civil rights up to a vote, in part, because people are often wrong.
When Christie suggested we should put — it would have been easier on the African-American community in the south during the civil rights movement to just have the rights go up to a vote, it would have lost. Desegregating the schools would have lost. Legalizing interracial marriage would have lost. Ending Jim Crow, all of that would have lost at the ballot box.
OLBERMANN: Slavery would have lost.
SAVAGE: And, you know, they always talk about how 31 times it's been up for a vote and 31 times it's lost. And they tromp that out like, "Okay, case closed, the American people have spoken." Well, the American people, sometimes, on civil rights issues are wrong.
If we put giving women the vote up to the vote at the time women were granted the vote, given the franchise, it would have lost. The American people were for interring the Japanese.
OLBERMANN: Franklin Roosevelt was for interring the Japanese.
SAVAGE: The American people are sometimes so consistently wrong when it comes to civil rights issues that, when everyone's in agreement about one thing, we should take a closer look at it. And this is that thing.
And you know, we did have a vote in Washington State on everything but marriage. We have a domestic partnership bill there, three ifferent bills that were past. It was called the "Everything but Marriage" clump of bills. And Gregoire signed them into law and the bigots did a referendum, forced it onto the ballot, and we won at the ballot box for everything but marriage. Marriage in everything but name.
We have a victory in Washington State on domestic partnership, but they called the proxy vote on marriage and now we're going — we're probably going to go back to the ballot box. We don't have marriage in Washington state as of today.
OLBERMANN: Is the presence of Rick Santorum in Tacoma and Olympia today totally a coincidence? Is it deliberate? Is it reward for your hard works on Google? How — did lightening strike? What happened?
SAVAGE: I'm trying to figure out which one of us has the restraining order that requires the other one to be at the other end of the country, because Rick Santorum came to Washington today as I was getting on an airplane going out here.
He smells blood. We have a thing coming up March 3rd, we have a Republican caucus or primary — I can't remember which one it is in Washington State.
And, you know — our Republican Party, activist base, rabidly anti-gay — and he may stump on this issue and win, as a result, in Washington State.
We're actually — my paper in encouraging Democrats in Seattle to go and vote for Santorum.
OLBERMANN: Okay, why?
SAVAGE: They think he'll — I don't know. I think it's playing with fire. In 2000 — in 2000 I thought, "I'm going to vote for George W. because he'll lose against Gore."
OLBERMANN: Right, it could never be Gore.
SAVAGE: Yeah, and Gore did beat him in 2000 but I hadn't controlled for stealing the election and now I'm a little gun shy about that. Go to a — go monkey wrench somebody else's primary, 'cause I'm staying away.
OLBERMANN: We’re not going to believe that Governor Christie is going to have some sort of great personal journey to get to some point where he's on the right side of history of this. He's on the wrong side of history. As usual, he's a fat jackass. And I speak as a fat person who is often called a jackass.
But what is — tell me about the Gregoire story, as in the years you know it,and what it means in terms of the political dialogue.
SAVAGE: The New York Times said that she was very courageous and brave. And I think that's overstating it. She was cautious and slow. And ultimately she was correct to take it slow.
I interviewed Christine Gregoire numerous times, at my paper, The Stranger, in Seattle and we would press her on this issue and she's get this little twinkle in her eye and she would say, "You know, we're just not there yet. Washington State isn't ready yet." And it was almost like listening to Obama say, "I'm evolving." Like, you could see that behind the politician there was a human being that was going, "I'm with you, but politically, it's not possible right now."
And she, you know, she's a smart politician. She ran the numbers and figured out that it's possible now and now she moved. All credit to her, props to her. She and Ed Murray, our state senator who led this flight, and Jamie Peterson, the state rep who led this fight, they were right to take it in pieces, to take it slow to build to here.
But it wasn't an act of political courage or bravery, it was an act of political caution and calculation.
And what's great about the Christie situation — if you told me 10 years ago, the New Jersey state senate would be voting 24-16 for marriage, the bigots — the Christies, the holdouts, people who are resisting the tide of history, they're the ones in the awkward position now. It used to be us, gay and lesbian people, gay and lesbian couples excluded from full civil equality. We were the ones who felt marginalized and awkward. Increasingly, it’s the bigots who feel marginalized and awkward and good for them. Christie's in an awkward position politically, socially, when it comes to the tide of history, and I hope he feels it every minute.
OLBERMANN: And you point at these people and go, "You're admitting to that in public?" It's a total switch now. It's wonderful.
SAVAGE: It is.
OLBERMANN: Dan Savage. "It Gets Better" airs on MTV and Logo a week from tomorrow. Are you seeing the show while you're in town?
SAVAGE: No, I'm only here tonight. So, I'm not.
OLBERMANN: We have a Book of Mormon competition. Three did you say?
SAVAGE: Three times.
OLBERMANN: Good for you. You're getting there. Nine. Thank you, Dan, good to see you.
SAVAGE: You too, Keith.
