KEITH OLBERMANN: When you think about it, usually when someone wants to pollute the drinking water for over 15 million people, the plot you’re thinking about involves a terrorist, maybe in a film. In our number-one story, a vote that would open the Delaware River to fracking was postponed today, due in large part to the over 800 people who stood outside the Trenton War Memorial and said "No fracking way!"
In 1961 New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Delaware came together with the federal government to form the Delaware River Basin Commission or DRBC. The DRBC consists of the governors of each of the four states as well as a representative from the US Army Corps of Engineers. Ordinarily, the commission focuses on monitoring water quality. It operates with little interest from the ordinary public. But the Marcellus Shale and its vast natural-gas supply changed that.
About a third of the Delaware River Basin in New York and Pennsylvania lies on top of the Marcellus Shale. By utilizing horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing -- the polite name for fracking -- natural-gas companies estimated they could recover 50 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, which would be enough to supply natural gas for the United States for two full years. Run a lot of hospitals to treat all the sick people that got sick that way from fracking as well.
In May 2009, DRBC executive director Carol Collier ordered that all drilling in the basin required the commission's approval. A hearing scheduled for today planned to vote on whether or not to allow twenty thousand gas wells in the Delaware River Basin. But last week the commission decided to delay the vote, apparently due to a lack of agreement on the issue. Gov. Markell of Delaware and Gov. Cuomo of New York had both publicly stated their intent to vote against the plan. Governor Corbett of Pennsylvania had shown support. Governor Christie and the Obama administration had not made any indication of which way they would vote.
While this was seen as a victory for those who have opposed the drilling, it did not stop more than 800 people from protesting outside where the hearing was supposed to have taken place. In light of all this, joining me now, actress and activist Deborah Winger and fellow activist -- and director of a great film, "Gasland" -- Josh Fox. Thank you both for coming in.
DEBORAH WINGER: Thanks for having us.
OLBERMANN: Deborah, is this a victory or is this just a delay?
WINGER: Well, I'm sort of Eeyore on the victory thing. I'm like, "It's a nice little victory, but . . . We're in it for the long run." Three years ago, we started to catch wind of this -- no pun intended -- as Josh was out across the country, sending footage back that was terrifying all of this, we thought "This can't come east. This can't come to New York." And in fact, it has. It's run over Pennsylvania and, you know -- we talk about the watershed because that's what we've been -- the argument has been framed, and the fact is that it's the food shed for New York.
OLBERMANN: Right.
WINGER: And what goes into the water goes into the earth, and we have great new farmers that are trying to move back into a very depressed farm area. We want that to happen. We want our specialty cheeses. We want our wine. We want -- I speak to New Yorkers now. I speak to New Yorkers, because these things are being grown in a place where the water will be tainted. It's not -- it's no doubt in our mind that if things go the way they've gone in these other states, we'll be in trouble.
OLBERMANN: So Josh, why did it go the way it did and what do you think is going to happen next?
JOSH FOX: Well, I think what happened was an enormous outpouring of citizen pressure. Not just today. Today was actually a huge victory in my estimation and a very, very unlikely victory.
WINGER: He is winning.
FOX: Well, it came from an enormous outpouring of people -- calling, emailing and the threat of taking over that meeting, which was stated as very, very clear -- that this was a moment where we had about a thousand people there today, and we anticipated 10 times more than that, to go and swarm a 2,000-seat hall.
When the Delaware River Basin Commission put out their regulations, they got 69,800 public comments overwhelmingly against the drilling. So, if you translate that -- all of New York State got 14,000 public comments. New York State took two years to absorb them. The Delaware River Basin Commission took seven months. And it doesn't seem like anybody actually read them. Going around making the rounds with the governors, talking to them and petitioning, it didn't seem like this crisis had really sunk in.
OLBERMANN: Right.
FOX: And now, it's 2-2, and it's squarely in the hands of the Obama administration. They have the swing vote. They have the deciding vote. So, we don't know what's actually going to happen. It's very rare that the DRBC actually cancels a vote. So, it's a big victory.But we don't know for how long . . .
WINGER: But they also have -- what? They only have to declare 24 hours before. . .
FOX: Ten days.
WINGER: Ten days.
FOX: Ten days.
WINGER: Ten days. Eeyore.
FOX: So, they can decide to vote again in 10 days and it would be time to call all of those people back into the street.
WINGER: But I think people are poised, and I think that we understand we are in it for the long run, but the level of education for all of the tri-state area has to be raised.
OLBERMANN: To that end, is it your conviction, based on what you did for "Gasland," and in terms of the preparation of it and as you put the movie together, and then the subsequent -- where it resonated and where it did not -- that the reason people have gotten away with fracking is because they've been able it operate in this vacuum of publicity and this is literally one of these situations that really needs sunshine and pressure?
FOX: Absolutely. We are in a paradigm shift about energy. We've been in it for quite awhile. We're in a phase called "extreme fossil-fuel development." Fracking fits in with Keystone XL -- the tar sands -- mountaintop removal, deep-water drilling. We haven't noticed the fact that we are running out of easily-attainable oil. We should have noticed that. We should have starting moving toward renewable energy.
But what -- instead -- the fossil-fuel companies have done is expose us to ever-more-contaminating and risky and dangerous and polluting forms of energy development -- fracking, tar sands -- and we see what happens in the Gulf. You see results of fracking all across the nation. The other thing that's happened is that that area -- where it's okay for people to be expendable -- you know, like West Virginia was for 100 years --
OLBERMANN: Yeah.
FOX: Has now expanded across the country and we are in 34 states and the largest domestic national-gas drilling campaign in natural history.
WINGER: And Western Pennsylvania's, you know, probably the best example.
FOX: It wasn't right, obviously, for people to be expendable anywhere. But now, what you are seeing is this encroach -- more and more -- on places where there's a lot of media attention.
WINGER: And I would say to that as well -- because, Josh, you know -- there's nobody better to talk about policy and numbers and facts. But when you start talking to people who have been affected by this and we can't -- you can't even manage the amount of stories that come in to be vetted.
FOX: No.
WINGER: But, you know, I think that's for me. I have been telling stories about people my whole life. But there is none more compelling than the real stories that are coming in now and some of them are abject, some of them cannot be fixed already. And I think that that's what I would like to get out there is -- are some more of these tales. I know the New York Times magazine did an article that gave us one of those stories. They are heart breaking. And it's happening here, it sounds like another country.
OLBERMANN: In the very limited time left, I guess I'll just poll you -- since you're Eeyore and Winnie in this situation. Between this and the XL pipeline delay, this has been a good year for America?
WINGER: Oh no, I don't think it's been a good year, Keith.
FOX: This has been an amazing week. To get two wins and we are talking about a coalition of people -- from the climate-justice movement, the fracking movement, the local groups, the big greens -- all coming together, so I think we are just getting started. This is like the orchestra tuning itself up.
WINGER: Okay, well, that's your metaphor. And mine is a funnel. We are going to jump in at different edges of the funnel.
OLBERMANN: Because delay means more attention and more knowledge, necessarily. So I get the final vote.
WINGER: Well, yeah. Not Tom DeLay.
OLBERMANN: Josh fox, Deborah Winger and not Tom DeLay. Thank you.
