KEITH OLBERMANN: Now, as promised — my great pleasure to welcome to "Countdown" the activist and singer/songwriter Jackson Browne.
BROWNE: Thank you, Keith.
OLBERMANN: Our pleasure.
BROWNE: It's great to be here.
OLBERMANN: Thank you.
BROWNE: How long have you been following this and — and — we were talking beforehand — this wasn't your first trip?
BROWNE: No, yeah, I went down there a month or so ago, in October. I was on tour and I — I was invited to — to go visit the — the Occupy encampment in Washington, D.C. but — being on tour, I can't really — I mean, there are no microphones. There's like a — I protect my voice, even on my days off so it wasn't really set up for me to go and — and do it but I went down there quietly and just sort of walked around and spoke to — spoke to some people and — and just figured I would come back and — and sing as soon as I got off of my tour — my tour, so — I've been following it since the beginning, since before it started, really, you know, having received the e-mails and the calls, you know.
But I don't think that I guessed that it would — it would turn into what it's turned into and I'm so happy that it has.
OLBERMANN: Particularly, the efforts that — the extraordinary efforts being made to — to suppress it, to discredit it, to — to spray it, to — to claim it must be unhealthy, to say — probably next thing is it's — it could probably cause cancer. Who knows what the next —
BROWN: Well, it's a —
OLBERMANN: Claim will be?
BROWNE: It's a sign that it's being effective. I mean, they don't really — they don't go to those lengths if it's not really reaching anybody, but I think, obviously, the fact that it's — that it's sprung up in so many places and it has such a resonance with — with the Arab Spring and with demonstrations in other parts of the world.
I used to think, when — when all of France would be shut down by unionists and students — I'd think what — why can't that happen in the United States? But I think that it is possible that this will really have a real effect on our electoral politics and, obviously, when you have people in Minneapolis — I mean, places all over the country, concurrently, all at the same time, you know, taking on the — the perceived ills, you know, in this manner — because it's non-violent, but it's extremely confrontational.
And of course, anything you do to confront and question the authority, whether you can gather, you know — I mean, I was wondering about the one in — in D.C. and whether or not they'll try to shut that down because that would be really — tacky.
OLBERMANN: Yes. And easily exposed to just the people they don't want out there covering this, which would be all the Washington political reporters.
BROWNE: Right.
OLBERMANN: So there's a reason to just, sort of, let it alone — 'til at least the last minute.
But that — that raises the — the question of what has been done in other places. We saw this at UC Davis, ten days ago — to horrible effect — on the Davis crowd and the pepper spraying that we — the video we just showed from Arizona, which was yesterday. Does it — you've seen a lot of protests, much of what you've done has been inspired by protests and has been relevant to protest throughout your career — when you see this being done as the lazy crowd-control methods that it's being used for —
BROWNE: I think they're freakin' out.
OLBERMANN: Yeah?
BROWNE: They're just freaking out. I mean, to actually — to empower their — you know, their — their officers to just walk up and, you know — and coldly just pepper spray nonviolent protesters is, I think, a sign that — that somebody's met — decided this is a — a shift in the tactics. I mean, if you've —if you've ever followed any of the COINTELPRO, you there — there was a point at which law enforcement began to meet with federal agencies about —
OLBERMANN: Right.
BROWNE: About crowd control and about, really, suppressing dissent and — and so — there are those agencies who do that and connect law enforcement. You're not supposed to. Apparently federal agencies are not supposed to be involved in — in local crowd control but they — I think they admitted the other day that they — that there was a meeting and, you know — but it's just like Gingrich talking about being — not being a lobbyist, you know? Like it's — I mean, it — there's a little bit of doubletalk going on there but whether or not they're really telling people, "Okay, it's time to step it up. This is an embarrassment," or whether, you know — whether or not they're just — individually, as a class of people — freaking out.
OLBERMANN: But, you'll remember this and I — and I remember it. Whenever efforts were made to — to quash protests, as late as the Sixties, each time that that was attempted, the protests got bigger.
BROWNE: Yeah.
OLBERMANN: Because more people realized that there was actually something to protest. That it was actually — even if it was just the — the treatment of the first set of protesters. Did — is —do you see, in this whole thing, the potential for it to continue and to grow in the immediate future?
BROWNE: Yeah, I actually think that — that having been evicted from these really — I mean, the places that are going to get really cold might be — there's a little bit of an advantage to that. For one thing, give — it gives you a chance to move — it gives the organizers or the — not the organizers but the — the Occupiers and the organization that they — that has, sort of — that they have begun — that's begun to grow among them, a chance to organize and — and plan and strategize indoors and — and not — I mean, they have what they call a radical — what do they call it? It was a term I heard used today. But a way of — of being transparent. A radical transparency.
OLBERMANN: Right.
BROWNE: Like — like — so, I think that that — that works in their — on — to their benefit. At the same time, it also works to the benefit of those who wish to, you know, undo you.
I mean, I used to think that it was no big thing if they tapped my phone because — after all, I'm not doing anything wrong.
OLBERMANN: Yeah, right.
BROWNE: But if they can tap your phone, they can plot all kinds of dirty tricks against you, you know? And — I'm actually referring to a real case where, like, me and a bunch of people in Los Angeles were — were wiretapped by LAPD on behalf of a right-wing computer database.
And — in the end — there was a lawsuit and they were — they were made to — to stop and give up whatever information they had and what — the information they had on me was that I had sang at an anti-war rally, which is not —
OLBERMANN: Yeah, no kidding.
BROWNE: They didn't have to tap my phone to find that out. So, you don't — you don’t know if they ever gave up the information they have or what they're — what kind of, you know, nefarious activities.
To say the least, it's — it's un-American, it's illegal and it's really against principles of our country — to — to prevent people from — from meeting, finding common cause and to advance their vision of a prosperous future. So, it’s just — I think that — I think what's gonna happen is in — in spring, we're gonna find out what’s really going on, you know and it — it'll be — it'll be easier to do the — this kind of work.
I mean, this — I think this is a galvanizing thing to have kept these encampments going under these conditions.
OLBERMANN: What — what do you think took so long? I mean, we were also talking about this before we went on the air. There was a period of — it was — it was a trough period for protest in this country, where people just —
BROWNE: Well, I've always felt that — that Americans think things are really bad before they're really bad and when — but they're starting to get bad. Now things — I think it took so long because, basically, America's still the most prosperous place in the world and in — even when, you know, even when — when things are — people doing well, even when things are not going well — and now that there are people — people have seen, in recent years, you know, they — you know, the — the evaporation of their — their future, their prospects at the hands of, you know, the corporations that have — were supposed to be the paragon of achievement and of security.
OLBERMANN: Yeah. Even in — in — as I was thinking about it, that you mention that, it's an astute observation — because even in the Sixties, at the — and the time of protest, the people who were on the streets saying, "We have to fix this country," still assumed we could fix this country.
BROWNE: Right.
OLBERMANN: We still had the opportunities to change it by — by democratic action and by protest and by song and all the rest of that.
BROWNE: Yeah.
OLBERMANN: And there — it really seemed — it seemed to have evaporated suddenly and been replaced by some sort of sense of desperation, almost.
BROWNE: Yeah, because I think — perhaps, because people realize that — that it's not enough to be — you know, it's a little bit naive to assume that those people who are — who are looting the economy are doing it in — with a different view of everybody's "best interest."
OLBERMANN: Um-hm.
BROWNE: Some of them are just flat-out criminals.
OLBERMANN: Yeah.
BROWNE: Some of them are just simply, you know, laughing their — you know — on their way back and forth to their — their private compounds and their — their surveillance systems and their private armies, you know? I mean there — there is really a very different version of prosperity, you know? Between those people who — the ultra rich and those people who have — and — and there's a certain amount of pride, you know? The human — humans are — there's a pride in the mastery of the situation.
Like, as Americans, we love — we love the game. We love, you know, like — you know, like, watching the game or the horse race and, I mean — that's what our politics have become, horse races and — or baseball games and — and the same with the political arena. I mean, what gets lost on — those people who — who really have so much money lose how — how serious a game this is to people who are slipping below the poverty line.
OLBERMANN: Yeah.
BROWNE: And whose — whose children's futures are beginning to evaporate. And when you see people, you know, year after year, whose — whose — and the homeless and the problems with education and all of the things — there was part of the contract of being an American and being — part of the contract is that you — you — you — you believe. You have expectations that, if you work hard, and you do your best —
OLBERMANN: Yeah.
BROWNE: That certain things come your way.
OLBERMANN: Yeah.
BROWNE: And that's turning out not to be true. And that will — I think, that will change the — the color of the whole — the — the debate and of the — of the — the conflict, ultimately. I think that it'll — I mean, I don't — I — I certainly hope that — that the Occupations that are happening — I mean, they're happening in little places like Arcata, California and —
OLBERMANN: Yeah.
BROWNE: Okay, there's 20 tents on city hall and they said, "Okay — oh, please do it in the — let's not do it in the town hall — we, kind of — we see it. We get what you're talking about. Come over here at city hall and we'll —" You know, and they probably talk every day. I mean, in a way — I think that there's a workability in most American communities that may not be there, when push comes to shove, in the big cities, you know? Where there's — there's a lot of face at stake here, you know, in —
OLBERMANN: Yes.
BROWNE: In New York and in Los Angeles. And in Philadelphia, where, you know, they've —they've famously like — really, really put down, really hard put down, you know — insurrections like MOVE.
OLBERMANN: Oh yes. And the former mayor from —
BROWNE: Yeah, so there's — there's — there's a lot of pride on the part of the people who control things and I think that it exists, you know, for the police too. Like, today, at — at Zuccotti Park, the police were very — they were cool. But we had somebody who spoke cop.
OLBERMANN: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.
BROWNE: We had somebody with us — a retired cop — who was like — and the — and one of the people who work with my — my tour is, himself, you know, from a military family and is very, very able to, like, speak into the — the — the — kind of the fabric of their structure and — and we were able to — 'cause it's not easy to go into a crowd like that, that is — you know, like, and — and even get from one end of the park to the other.
OLBERMANN: Absolutely. It's a small place. Well, we appreciate both the — the fact that you were able to spend some time there and to spend some time with us tonight.
BROWNE: Well, thanks, it's a — it’s a real thrill to meet you, Keith.
OLBERMANN: The pleasure's all mine. Jackson Browne, thank you again.
