KEITH OLBERMANN: When is a tent just a tent and when is it a vehicle for a freedom of speech?
In our fourth story on the "Countdown" -- a judge upholds Mayor Bloomberg's decision to rid Zuccotti Park of Occupy protesters after officials ignore orders from another judge to allow occupiers back into their camp. Late this afternoon, New York State Supreme Court Justice Michael Stallman -- yes, he picked that picture -- denied the protesters' emergency appeal to return to the park, ruling that protesters "have not demonstrated that they have a First Amendment right to remain in Zuccotti Park." Lawyers for the protesters say their First Amendment rights have, indeed, been violated and their fight will not end here.
Joining me now, one of those fighting on behalf of the protesters, Yetta Kurland, attorney with the National Lawyers Guild. Good to see you again.
YETTA KURLAND: Thank you.
OLBERMANN: Okay, you got a TRO at the crack of the dawn this morning, letting the protesters back in -- with tents, with sleeping bags, with their possessions -- and the mayor just ignored it. He claimed it needed clarification. In legal terms, what the hell was that?
KURLAND: Very good question. We got the order signed at about 6:30 this morning. We served it on, not only the city, the NYPD, but also Brookfield Properties by 7:50 am and still, by 10:00 am, we were not being allowed to bring folks back into the park. And we went, in fact, down to Zuccotti Park and tried to serve it on a number of police officers, who literally walked away from us and refused to accept service of a court order by a New York state Supreme Court judge.
OLBERMANN: Did the city, then, go judge shopping or did they lean on somebody? What is the next legal step, in terms of this unfortunate judge who said, "Well, yeah, it is a little unfortunate that you guys changed the rules in the middle of the game but that doesn't affect the larger issue of whether they get to bring camping gear in."
KURLAND: Yeah, I mean, we don't know what happened behind closed doors. I do know that it has been a long day with a lot of ups and downs. We were certainly very delighted to get the order this morning by Judge Billings, clearly directing the city to recognize the First Amendment rights of the protesters to allow them back into the city -- into the park, excuse me -- along with their belongings.
The decision this afternoon was certainly disheartening and -- frankly, you know -- listen, some decisions are good decisions. Some decisions are bad decisions. In my opinion, the decision by Judge Stallman was not a good decision. I am not sure he understood the finer nuances of the argument regarding First Amendment issues. He seemed to, kind of, skip a track and get preoccupied with this claim by the city that their conduct was mostly because of public-safety issues.
OLBERMANN: Sometime after this all began -- on the 17th of September -- Brookfield Properties issued new guidelines that prohibited, among other things, "camping and/or the erection of tents or other structures, the placement of tarps or sleeping bags or other covering on the property." Those were not in the restrictions of the use of that public space that's been public space since at least the opening of the World Trade Center 40 years ago. Did the judge this afternoon essentially say -- they can change those rules, they can retroactively input those rules, no matter what effects they might have on freedom of speech or anybody else's constitutional rights? Is that what he ruled?
KURLAND: You know, it's a confusing decision. He first said it's undisputed that it is a traditional public space.
OLBERMANN: Right.
KURLAND: But then went on to say that, in fact, they couldn't bring tents and structures onto the premises, and again -- I am not sure that he understood the arguments and I am not sure that he understood the broader, arching issue of what it means to Occupy. And that, kind of, the 21st century is moving into a new type of social movement.
OLBERMANN: I quoted Police Commissioner Kelly from a broadcast about two hours ago -- maybe only an hour and a half ago now -- who said that there would be Brookfield employees, presumably guards, at four entrances to Zuccotti Park, who would check everybody. And they have already done this -- checked people's bags, checked people's persons. You'll notice Police Commissioner Kelly is not being checked for anything there. He's just standing around gloating over what happened. But -- they are going to search people going into a public space. I'm confused and I don't think it's just because I didn't go to law school. I'm confused by that idea.
KURLAND: Very confusing. And who is giving them what directions? What happens to tourists who the happen to have backpacks? Again, we are talking about selective enforcement, some very concerning issues in terms of enforcement of that. So, we will see what happens. As our clients often say, "You cannot evict an idea."
And I think that, you know -- although we were disappointed by the decision by Stallman, there are a lot of options moving forward. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's great to hear the support from the Occupiers for the work of the National Lawyers Guild. But, in fact, we feel very privileged and very honored to be able to represent these folks who are working at Occupy Wall Street.
OLBERMANN: The final number may vary on this -- there's at least four, probably six, maybe more journalists -- Associated Press, New York Daily News, New York Times, all of them -- somebody was arrested from each organization this morning while covering the protest with valid press credentials. The mayors claimed the actions against the media were to protect members of the press. Have we just seen, sort of, the ultimate violation of freedom of the press? He arrested reporters in the middle of what he believed was a legal action on his part as mayor?
KURLAND: Yeah. And then said that he did it to make the journalists safe. I mean, another issue is -- as you reported earlier -- Ydanis Rodriguez, a New York City council member. Where is the mayor saying that he is upset that his own council member has been arrested wrongfully and bloodied in that process? It calls into question what the motivations are here.
But again, you know, there were some setbacks today. But I think that it is unquestionable that this movement will continue. And that the folks aren't going away. And again, the thing that I've said every time I've done this show, is that we have repeatedly offered the city to sit down -- if there really are any types of public health concerns, any other types of concerns -- we have always been available to address those issues, but -- but appearing at 1:00 in the morning with mass evictions, reports that I was hearing of bulldozers with their blades down, going down Broadway with 35 riot-gear cops? This is not the way to do that.
OLBERMANN: You will get a lot of things, perhaps, in the courts relative to Michael Bloomberg. But there are few things you will get if he doesn't want them -- a meeting and an apology.
Yetta Kurland of the National Lawyers Guild, one of the volunteers for the Occupy Wall Street movement. Thanks again, Yetta.
KURLAND: Thank you.
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