How to Beat the Bank

Up till now I've been happy with Wells Fargo. I've had sketchy deposits and never for past 2 years did I get a surprise overdraft fee.. till last night. Basically branches have unadvertised deposit cut-off times that are the hard rule for how they assess their fees because of post timing. These hours are mostly concealed off secondary links on their banking hours 'special services'. So if I cash a check for say 1k bucks and deposit it with the tell at 6pm.. the cutoff time was 4pm.. so I'm screwed with the OD fees. But if I step two feet away to the machine I have till 8pm to make the same deposit and avoid fees. Their tellers conveniently don't tell you this so you'll take their fees and not ponder why. Well I pondered today, pleaded with them, and they wouldn't respond to my 'ultimatums' .. so goodbye!

Watch this link for more info on where to go with your valuable money..

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6252742n

The bank will always win in court. You can sue for as much as you want. I sued for 4000. for overdrafts to my business over a 4 year period, but lost. Judge wasnt having it. But the bank did offer me a flat 500 to drop the suit. On principle I wanted to complain to the court, in hindsight, I shoulda took the money. My solution now? Greendot.with a .50 overdraft fee, I'm saying goodbye forever to the bank. https://www.mygreendot.com/Greendot/

awesome! i've made wells fargo soooo much money from the rediculous fees i've paid them over the years, as soon as i was square i closed the account.. i wish i had taken them to small claims!

long story bare with me...i req a new card number and ended up having my old card number left active and incurring over draft fees for an " al-jazeera satilite company" that used the old card number. i was charged $600.00 in overdraft fees one week and $1200.00 the next. although my bank account was corrected it offered me no protection at all. the "overdraft protection" policy that comes with most debt card contracts does nothing but allow purchase to go through without having money in the account and then turns around and charges u $30.00 per transaction, whether legal or illegal purchases were being made. i have changed banks and do not have "overdraft protection".

Thanks for taking the time and energy to produce this video. This could easily be the story of my life. Bank of America is ripping me off as well. I tried everything possible but they refuse to reverse these outrageous and abusive fees. Their employees are so rude, they treat you like you're not even a human being. I would love to have the emails for their executives and try that first since I do not want to look "stupid" in front of a judge either. Mflguy, could you please be kind enough to email me with their names and emails? Thanks in advance. If more people did fight this abuse we as consumers would be much better off. I understand it's very time consuming, but the end result of having them swallow their own bad medicine should be PRICELESS!!!

Btw:

Even though I was able to get my bank to refund the fees we were still left feeling a bit abused. I decided to close my account with the bank and opened one with a credit union.

Credit unions don't charge for checking/savings accounts.

They will take money from your savings to cover any over drafts. They will do this a max of 6 times per month (as mandated by law) and after that they charge 25 bucks each time (my credit union charges 25 but others might charge less or more).

But how often are you going to overdraft more then 6 times in a month?

No annual fees for the checking/Savings, lower interest rates on loans, higher rates on savings accounts, much lower over draft fees.

I will never go back to the old banks. Nothing but credit unions for me!

I wouldn't worry too much about the bank manager showing up to court. The bank doesn't have time to show up for every small claims case filed against it. It's much cheaper for them to simply settle ESPECIALLY when the amount you're asking for is a few hundred bucks.

If you were asking for thousands and thousands of dollars it would be a different story. However,. I'm sure your not so rest easy.

Try the email thing first and if that doesn't work file the small claims case. They will call and settle the minute they get served notice of the case.

All of this is assuming the Bank Manager wants to settle out of court, any information on how to win the case if he does end up coming to court so I dont look like an idiot standing in front of the Judge?

Bank of America responded to the emails. They refunded my overdraft fees today!

I have been a bank of America customer for over ten years. I have two checking accounts with them. Once in a while I will accidentally overdraw my main account (maybe once a year) and even then i only get hit with one fee. June was a costly month for me as I had several unexpected expenses. I accidentally overdrew my account (one groceries purchase was $100, one was $30, one was $20, followed by several that were less then $10 each) the total amount was $190. This happened on June 29th. I was charged the $350 on June 30th. I realized my mistake on July 1st (bank of america never notified me) and transferred funds from my 2nd checking account to get my main account out of the red.

Bank of America charged me a $35 fee ten times on the same day($350.00 total).

I wouldn't have purchased things like a $4.77 coffee at starbucks If I knew it was actually going to cost me $39.77 ($4.77+$35.00). Why didn't Bank of America reject the transactions like that one? Why didn't Bank of America notify me that my account was overdrawn so I wouldn't continue making small purchases? Why didn't Bank of America take funds from my 2nd checking account with them (I can view both accounts when I log into bank of america's online banking service) to prevent the over draft in the first place???

I called customer service and said that as a loyal customer for over ten years I feel that charging me $350 in overdraft fees on ONE day is ridiculous.

While on the phone with them I wanted them to use my secondary checking account as protection for future overdrafts. They informed me they could only use a savings account (which they charge fees for so I don't use them) or a bank of America credit card (I don't have one) as over draft protection.

Anyways, the customer service rep basically told me tough luck. The supervisor said the same thing.

I posted my displeasure on twitter and received a response from someone who says they work for BOA and asked if they could help. They logged off for the day before I could respond. I checked their blog and it seems their "help" is to simply remind people of the terms and conditions they agree to when using Bank of America.

I did some research and found a site called the Consumerist. A man had been similarly ripped off by BOA and he sent an email to several BOA executives and got his fees refunded. He nicely provided their email addresses so I too sent my own email to them. I did that this afternoon so it might be a few days before I know if it worked or if those that did receive it will help me get my fees refunded.

I'm going to give the BOA executives I emailed a chance to fix this issue but if all else fails I too will be filing a small claims court case against them.

I want to thank you for making that video and posting it here.

File a small claims suit. Recently a charge went through that over drafted our account. The bank proceeded to let transactions through over drafting the account 11 times in one day. The bank position is that the charges all went through at one time. We know that is not true. The convenience of allowing the transaction to go through at $35 fee each time is not a convenience but actually a pretty nice business.
Bankers are great at math but this just does not add up. If this should happen to you simply file a small claims suit with the local court. You should be able to get all your money back. You can do this online at turbo court

one other nefarious item to note.

banks always process your transactions for the day in order of $ amount, not in the order you made the charges/purchases. this results in the maximum overdraft fees possible for the bank.

$30 in your account, buy a $3 cup of coffee in the AM and have a recurring payment hit that afternoon for $40 and you get hit with 2 overdraft fees of ~ $30 each.

banks are criminal and powerful enough to steal.

I already filed in small claims against National City in Pittsburgh. I saw this video while I was researching my presentation to the Magistrate. Thanks for the video.

...very interesting piece...but obviously some people should really manage their funds better. I don't feel that it's not the bank's fault for someone being irresponsible with their money. I get that it's not fair that they charge you all this money, but how could you expect these rules to be altered just for your single case? or the case of a few other people? Banks makes rules to protect themselves and when you are borrowing their money, you should become aware of them when you start banking with them. And when you're close to zero....maybe you should hold off on the cup of coffee.

OR another good idea is to GET RID OF THE OVERDRAFT?!!?!?!??! ever thought of that?! I had an overdraft limit of about $2000, and as a 21 year old...I thought, "what the hell do i need $2000 in overdraft for?--I have a Visa, and that should be enough"

if you're making so little money, you should know where it's going, as the guy in the documentary said and if you have such a close eye on your money, maybe you should know when you need to stop--and not waste it on beer (which is not a necessity).

PS. Americans hold the most debt in North and South America alone and some of the reasons are:
a) people spending money when they don't have it
b) large credit cards and overdraft limits
c) borrowing credit is too easy
d) EXPERIMENTING WITH MONEY like Karney just did!!!! Did anyone ever teach about the importance of surviving, or surviving in a world that includes the necessity of money?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

You keep wanting to have the last word, kittyfrog! That's hardly the end of the story.

I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, I'm saying that in comparison to the millions that Wells Fargo fleeced from consumers, they're not going to notice the $47.50 they lost on me.

If OD fees are so avoidable, why does the industry make tens of bilions of dollars off low-income people, who would VERY much like to avoid these fees, every year? (Because they've designed their system to make OD fees very hard to avoid!)

I agree, banks do need to make money to survive. I've got a crazy idea - how about they make it the old-fashioned way, off interest!

We cannot base our morality in comparison to others. They may be 'evil,' but that cannot be used to justify your actions. Again, you could have assisted someone who had real overdraft fees and were struggling, instead you chose to create a false reality.

I may point out that an o/d fee is still the most avoidable out there.There is a service provided, some profit is okay. I do not see you complaining about mark-ups in other industries. Banks are still private industries geared to produce revenue and a service is being offered. Not all banks are evil; Community banks tend to have better policies and treat people better.

You are right, change must occur, people must educate themselves and regulation is needed. However, I do not view what you did as a right or necessary action. End of story.

Coupla things, kittyfrog.

Should I fees guilty for getting Wells Fargo to pay me back my fraudulent overdraft fees, plus the $47.50 filing fee that it cost me to sue them in small claims court, when they sent out thousands of $1,000 "draft loans" to people and got fined millions of dollars by the State of California for doing it? I don't think so. They're a big, evil corporation. I feel comfortable using the word evil because I interviewed a business ethicist during my film, by the way.

As to your point about knowing your balance and using a register, this unfortunately doesn't really happen much these, because we're not in the age of checks anymore. We're in the age of debit cards. That's part of the problem with the system - the OD system and the laws that govern it came about in the age of checks when people tended to write larger checks for bills or purchases, and now it's being used during the age of debit cards, and people use their cards as though they were cash, sometimes incurring many overdraft fees in one day, mostly on small purchases. The banks aren't complaining because they're making billions...

As to your last point, I know from exchanging emails with you that the OD fee at the bank where you work is $20. Time and motion studies have shown that this is at least 4 times greater than what it actually costs to deal with it, even if you're doing it by hand. Therefore the rest of that $20 is profit.

Wake up to the reality - all banks, even yours, are using OD fees as a revenue stream.

Wow!

So you opened an account in an attempt to incur overdraft fees. Then you attempted to get your money back plus the money you spent on filing. That does not sound right to me.

You also made purchases so small that they would not have pre-authorized your account. Yes, to make it easier on merchants, there are floor limits established and if the purchase is under that limit, the transaction does not verify to see if funds are available. It only verifies that the card is open and active. If you don't want things to work that way, lobby processors and VISA/Mastercard.

Now, I do work at a bank, a small bank, and we charge overdraft fees. After all, it takes time and money to process and pay/ return these items.

You as a customer should know your balance and use a register. It is not up to a bank to babysit you and tell you when items are hitting your account or when your balance is low.

However, these larger banks are abusing OD fees. OD fees should be reasonable and around the average real cost of handling that transaction and posting order should be smallest item to largest. If you don't like how the big guys do things, check out your local community bank as they usually follow this format.

Genius! Banks end up sending many people into a black hole in order to extract as much as they can. Thanks for the good information.

Thank you this is very helpful'

Just watched it...that was awesome...damn you banks.

I'm looking to do the same with National City bank in PA, can you give me the case #, Date, Docket number etc, so I can cite a precedent?

by the way I forgot..............To anyone thinking of not paying these fees. The following is a threat I received by Wells Fargo's Overdraft Collection Department.

" Sir, if you let this account go past 90 days we will report you to CHECK SYSTEMS and you will not be able to bank for five years, furthurmore we will find out if you have an account with another bank and levy your account then that bank will close your account and you will not bank anywhere, do you understand me."

This is a direct quote from a Wells Fargo Collections agent.......I have been threatened twice in such a manner from these bastards.

by the way..................................I would love to be in your documentary Karney...............I'm not ashamed to be struggling in life...........More pissed that my chosen career has been outsourced to China, malaysia and Taiwan and now I have to work for myself to make a decent living....................Thanks John Kerry and the rest of the Congress 1997, the year MFN with China was passed in the house and Senate

Karney, Your video was amazing. I too have seen the pains of exorbitant overdraft fees. My first thought was small claims, but dismissed due to non beleif in the system. Your video has inspired me.

Over the past month that I have been dealing with the USURY practice of Wells Fargo I have met more dead ends than you can imagine. Because of a decline in my business over the past 18 months I have paid over $4,500 in overdraft fees. Well Fargo worked with me on only a small portion (less than 10%) of them. However recently, since January I have been more carefull and only overdrafted a few times. Creditors pressure me to make a payment in advance not knowing if the money will be there or not and everytime I do it I get a fee, or alot of them....In one instance I had over $150.00 in fees because the system saw the overdraft fee as another overdraft and this accumulated to a total of $370.00 in fees for a sum of $45 in overdrafts......Recently I have seen $350.00 in fees for $88.00 in overdraft...............So far I am refusing to pay the fees. This practice of USURY is starting to get some attention I have researched proposed bills by the FDIC and other federal agencies. Most only address an opt out program and do not address a solution to the problem. Such as, limiting fees to a percentage that is fair. Something like 20% of the overdraft limited to a maximum os $35 dollars for transactions that are over $100.00. That would be a more fair resolution. States rights are limited when it comes to National Banks. I want to start a consumer advocate organization that deals strictly with unfair banking practices, including putting an initiative on the ballot in Nevada to ban such practices.....

Check out www.ripoffreport.com search for Wells fargo under title: Wells Fargo Bank overdraft fees charged as high as 350,000% for my full story and responses by what appear to be bank managers..........Or email overdraftfraud@yahoo.com

Steve

I bank at Bank of America. Yesterday I went into a branch to make a deposit to cover my medical coverage. My bank is in Washington State and I was making the deposit in San Fransisco Ca. I was told there would be a 7 day hold on several of the checks I deposited (why? NO solid reason other than the checks needed to be cleared first....although several non B of A checks cleared right away and gee I had deposited many many checks to this account while in California and usually have no problems) They told me they would pay the medical plan but indeed would assign a $35 overdraft fee to my account. IF my entire deposit had been accepted as it should have been I would have had more than I needed and no where near being overdrawn. Needless to say I am leaving Bank of America (apparently its really the Bank of the Separate States of America). I am sick of being robbed by B of A.

Great Pod!

Bank of America is no better than Wells Fargo.

A few months ago, my bank BofA nailed me for about $150.00 in overdraft fees. What they did was when they post transactions to your account at midnight, the transaction affects your account the following business day - in this case, they applied the debit retroactively to the preceding day. The result was a snowball effect.

Remember - it is your lousy elected officials who allow the banks to use these sorts of Predatory practices to "legally" STEAL from us.

Wells Fargo nearly forced me into bankruptcy a few years back when my business was brand new - the most critical time of all. Wells Fargo instituted a plan to cause millions of people's accounts to be overdrawn. For about a month and a half, Wells Fargo bounced at least 4 items a week on my account.

Not yet understanding what was going on, and trying to be conscientious I withheld payments to creditors until I was certain I wasn't going to write them a bad check - thinking it was better to be late than to bounce it.

After about two months, Wells Fargo admitted to me they had been integrating a new operating system into the state in three sections. Where I was making the majority of my deposits was in section 3, and my home branch was in section 1 or 2, so as a result debits from my account were conveniently being posted before the credits each night. Then, together with the $29.00 overdraft fee for each more items went negative.

I wrote to the California State Attorney General Bill Lockyer about this situation - and his office wrote back and said thanks for sharing. What a joke. Obama said I was "bitter" - guess what Hilbillary and McCrain, he's right!

A trick the banks use when they are playing games to screw us out of money is to make the bank manager unavailable. In the two to three months this was going on, my Wells Fargo home branch went through three bank managers and most of the time, I was told the manager was sick, at a doctors appointment, on vacation, had been transfered or the branch didn't have a new manager yet.

Eventually with great effort thousands of dollars of income lost and time wasted dealing with Wells Fargo, the bank gave me a written apology, refunded over $1,000.00 in penalties (incurred $29.00 at a time) and overdraft fees and hit me on the back of the head with the door on my way out.

I sent Wells Fargo's letter to credit cards and other creditors who said they saw no reason to reverse the late and overdrawn fees I incurred from this debacle.

I will say, by far, I wasn't the only person affected when Wells Fargo pulled this stunt to cheat people out of their money. Unfortunately, most people don't do or say anything about it - perhaps thinking it's their fault, as I did initially.

Burn the Bank's in Hell!

I would have pursued a lawsuit against Wells Fargo, but with a brand new business and a brand new daughter, relocating my family to Los Angeles and becoming a victim of corrupt Bureau of Auto Repair employees Roderick E. Baca and John Nelson and other city officials in Los Angeles - collectively or one of them arranging me to receive death threats, it was the lest of my concerns.

And by the way, despite evidence of felony perjury and falsification of government documents (also a felony), none of the public employees or complicit people have been charged or prosecuted for their crimes - Ripusofficans at least one.

how bout a follow up pod on how to beat the Cheques System. Once you are on the system (usually for being overdrawn) its near impossible to get off and equally difficult to find a bank who will allow you to open up an account...or so I heard.

Love this. Debt/money is a big issue for many people. While I support people being responsible with their money, I love that they gave you your money back. It shows you can correct mistakes peacefully with a bit of effort. Nice job.

A similar thing happened to me about a month ago. My husband and I have three accounts with our bank, two personal and one business. I've have a relationship with our bank for over ten years, and during that time none of the accounts I've managed had ever gone into the red. With a longtime track record of being a model customer, I was therefore very upset when the bank chose to penalize me when a snafu occurred.

One of our checks was accidentally deposited into the wrong account, which caused it to go overdrawn when checks we had written cleared. Even though we had more than enough money to cover the checks over the three accounts we had with the bank, the bank decided to return three checks, which, if they had cleared would have created an overdraft of less than $250. The bank then charged us $36 per check for the privilege of refusing to honor them. In addition, we faced check return and late payment fees from our car insurance, phone and credit card companies because of the bank's actions.

I was particularly upset that the bank hadn't bothered to call me (which they did regularly to confirm other transactions), or taken my highly responsible banking record into account before they decided to bounce the checks. Had they called, the situation could have been resolved instantly with a transfer between accounts. Instead, it seems to me, the bank saw an opportunity to make a quick buck ($108 actually) and took it, charging me fees, and putting my good credit, and car insurance policy, at risk in the process.

My initial complaints fell on officious and intransigent ears. The bank refused to refund the charges, insisting that they "couldn't" rather then "wouldn't" do it. Luckily for me, they'd erroneously mailed someone else's overdraft notice in the same envelope as mine, so with this as leverage, I agreed to do the right thing and hand over "John Doe's" letter on condition that the bank did the right thing and rescinded my fees.

But the episode left a very bitter taste in my mouth, and got me thinking about those less fortunate than myself, for whom the system is particularly unfair. Just one of the three fees the bank had taken from my account, without my permission, was the equivalent to the best part of a day's pay for someone on minimum wage. Put the three together and it's well over half a week's salary for the hard working poor. How can that be fair?

With such sharp practices these banks are no better than loan sharks. And with the economy in crisis, such money generating policies are likely to increase as the banks desperately try to claw back the funds they've been forced to write off due to the mortgage fiasco we're in the midst of right now. Once again the consumer is paying (dearly) for the mistakes fat cat, big business has made.

So what can we do? Certainly it's all our responsibilities to refuse to take such treatment lying down. The banks are only able to charge such outrageous fees because on some level we allow them to get away with it. Next time you get an unfair charge, call the bank on it. You may be able to afford to eat it, but the person standing in line behind you might not, and, as a society, we stand or fall together. If one employee refuses to help, refuse to be brushed off. Ask to see their superior, and if they can't help, ask to see theirs. Threaten to close your account down and take your business elsewhere, and DO IT if they fail to offer an acceptable resolution.

If all else fails, take a leaf out of Hatch's playbook, and take your bank to small claims court. As Ralph Nader says, "If a million consumers filed a million small claims court actions a year against the banks, the banks would either try to abolish the small claims court or try to improve their performance." Perhaps it's our responsibility to put that theory to the test. Once we've knocked the banks into shape, my next raison d'être will be local councils and the parking fines they charge. Try paying those on a minimum wage!

Awesome pod. Well done. I paid so many of those! Keep up the good job exposing the wealth of company's.

Great pod. Who knew?!

Brilliant. Overdraft fees seem like a completely non-visual story but you told it so well, without many abstractions! Good call putting yourself in this pod, it was definitely appropriate. And I liked the tone, at first I wasn't sure if this was completely satirical, but then you focused the story and enlightened the viewer on this common, but not always understood, issue. Great interviews too. You also handled the phone calls very well by consolidating and repeating the conversation yourself and getting around any legal ramifications. Awesome job!

Credit card companies do this too. Its simple: They realized that they weren't making any money by declining transactions.

Great Pod! Overdraft fees are the bain of my existence!
Especially last spring when I got a $600 overdraft fee. I kept using my debit card when I was already overdrawn and it kept working putting me way over my limit. The best part was that all of the charges went through on the same day. I contacted the head of my bank (with the help of my uncle) and they took off all the overdraft fees so I owed them only $50.

Yay beating the system!

this pod was great! i did change my bank from citizens free checking acount to a credit union about four months ago. good work karney!

Great Pod!! I only wish i knew that about 2 years ago!

Just got a few NSFs in one day because I received a check which my bank acknowledged at 9 am but it wasn't available that day until 5 pm. Between 9a and 5p my student loan payment was automatically deducted.
That was a very informative pod and I am going to give it a try. I'll pass the information along to others also.

I have found that, when you feel wronged, it is ALWAYS worth filing a complaint. Most of the time, the Attorney General's office of my state contacts the offending party on my behalf (due to my latest filing, I have a new Alienware laptop on the way because a spam e-mail message said I had "won"). In the case of a bank, a state banking authority may be the place to complain...

Awesome pod!

Overdraft fees really are ridiculous, and it was neat to see an exploration of the topic. And I like how we see it through the eyes and experiences of our main character.

Nader's last sound bite is really interesting; I wonder if what the fallout would be if what he's hypothesizing actually happened.

Great pod, I wish I would have done the same. Wells Fargo got us for about $1000. The kicker was we had overdraft protection tied to our savings. There was plenty of money in the savings account but they still charged us a overdraft fee. What was really bad was on a few occasions it was the overdraft fee that caused the overdraft. So then we closed the account and opened one with BofA. And guess what they play the same game. And for all this I am paying them $7.50 a month for a checking account. After all this I gave up and now I try to pay cash for things, but I still have to have a darn checking account.

Awesome! Thanks for posting.

excellent. thank you for your excellent pod!

I should have done that. Last year B of A charged me over $500 in overdraft fees :(

Awesome pod!

GREAT VIDEO. I've used Small Claims Court filings to solve a lot of my problems with the major banks, especially relating to Identity Theft they didn't wish to resolve.

While many people would consider this cheating- it's not. Banks will take you to Court for the same reasons.

This is a great example of Capitalism, and how Contract/Tort law can be used to bring about changes without unnecessary "laws" and regulations.

I appreciate it.

I learned about the overdraft fee the "hard" way. I worked at the bank before and never had problems with going overdrawn before. Also never heard people complaining about being charged for going "overdrawn", Until I moved to the States and saw that I was being charged to just go over by a couple of dollars. On top of that I got a mail saying that I went over, and got also charged with $35. I was like "are you kidding me?"

Then again where I come from your card is only for ATM withdraws and pin in stores. Secondly it would never let me get money out of the ATM that went over what I have in my bank account, nor pin what I don't have.
Last but not least, my bank never charged me if I went just a little over, because I have the account and I worked so money gets back in the next month and it gets taken off (what ever or little I went over).

I couldn't believe it when I was being charge for going over, what the heck? I mean it wasn't like I was going over $100 or more.

So unfair to be charged for going over. Grrr but then again that's how banks make money I guess.

I like though that Karney challenged the system. Kuddos!!!