Upstream | March 23, 2011 | 118 comments

Organized Religion "Will Be Driven Toward Extinction" in 9 Countries, Experts Predict

source: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/23/religion-to-go-extinct-in-9-countries-experts-predi...

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EthicalVegan
March 23rd, 2011
10:56 AM ET

Organized religion 'will be driven toward extinction' in 9 countries, experts predict

By Richard Allen Greene, CNN

Organized religion will all but vanish eventually from nine Western-style democracies, a team of mathematicians predict in a new paper based on census data stretching back 100 years.

It won't die out completely, but "religion will be driven toward extinction" in countries including Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Netherlands, they say.

It will also wither away in Austria, the Czech Republic, Finland and Switzerland, they anticipate.

They can't make a prediction about the United States because the U.S. census doesn't ask about religion, lead author Daniel Abrams told CNN.

But nine other countries provide enough data for detailed mathematical modeling, he said.

"If you look at the data, 'unaffiliated' is the fastest-growing group" in those countries, he said.

"We start with two big assumptions based on sociology," he explained.

The first is that it's more attractive to be part of the majority than the minority, so as religious affiliation declines, it becomes more popular not to be a churchgoer than to be one, he said - what Abrams calls the majority effect.

"People are more likely to switch to groups with more members," he said.

Social networks can have a powerful influence, he said.

"Just a few connections to people who are (religiously) unaffiliated is enough to drive the effect," he said.

The other assumption underlying the prediction is that there are social, economic and political advantages to being unaffiliated with a religion in the countries where it's in decline - what Abrams calls the utility effect.

"The utility of being unaffiliated seems to be higher than affiliated in Western democracies," he said.

Abrams and his co-authors are not passing any judgment on religion, he's quick to say - they're just modeling a prediction based on trends.

"We're not trying to make any commentary about religion or whether people should be religious or not," he said.

"I became interested in this because I saw survey data results for the U.S. and was surprised by how large the unaffiliated group was," he said, referring to a number of studies done by universities and think tanks on trends in religion.

Studies suggest that "unaffiliated" is the fastest-growing religious group in the United States, with about 15% of the population falling into a category experts call the "nones."

They're not necessarily atheists or non-believers, experts say, just people who do not associate themselves with a particular religion or house of worship at the time of the survey.

Abrams had done an earlier study looking into the extinction of languages spoken by small numbers of people.

When he saw the religion data, his co-author "Richard Wiener suggested we try to apply a similar technique to religious affiliation," Abrams said.

The paper, by Abrams, Wiener and Haley A. Yaple, is called "A mathematical model of social group competition with application to the growth of religious non-affiliation." They presented it this week at the Dallas meeting of the American Physical Society.

Only the Czech Republic already has a majority of people who are unaffiliated with religion, but the Netherlands, for example, will go from about 40% unaffiliated today to more than 70% by 2050, they expect.

Even deeply Catholic Ireland will see religion die out, the model predicts.

"They've gone from 0.04% unaffiliated in 1961 to 4.2% in 2006, our most recent data point," Abrams says.

He admits that the increase in Muslim immigration to Europe may throw off the model, but he thinks the trend is robust enough to withstand some challenges.

"Netherlands data goes back to 1860," he pointed out. "Every single data that we were able to find shows that people are moving from the affiliated to unaffiliated. I can't imagine that will change, but that's personal opinion, not what the data shows."

But Barry Kosmin, a demographer of religion at Trinity College in Connecticut, is doubtful.

"Religion relies on human beings. They aren't rational or predictable according to the laws of physics. Religious fervor waxes and wanes in unpredictable ways," he said.

"The Jewish tradition that says prophecy is for fools and children is probably wise," he added.

And Abrams, Wiener and Yaple are not the first to predict the end of religion.

Peter Berger, a former president of the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion, once said that, "People will become so bored with what religious groups have to offer that they will look elsewhere."

He said Protestantism "has reached the strange state of self-liquidation," that Catholicism was in severe crisis, and anticipated that "religions are likely to survive in small enclaves and pockets" in the United States.

He made those predictions in February 1968.
  1. groups:
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  2. tags:
    Religion,  Organized Religion,  Scientific Study of Religion
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118 comments // Organized Religion "Will Be Driven Toward Extinction" in 9 Countries, Experts Predict

  • blaino
    • +2
      blaino  

    • I think that when considering the complexity of god and eternity Mark Twain said it best

      "'It is true, that which I have revealed to you; there is no God, no universe, no human race, no earthly life, no heaven, no hell. It is all a dream - a grotesque and foolish dream. Nothing exists but you. And you are but a thought - a vagrant thought, a useless thought, a homeless thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities!'

      He vanished, and left me appalled; for I knew, and realized, that all he had said was true."

      An excerpt from.. The Mysterious Stranger.. Twain's final tale concerning the matters of reality.

      Its an amazing little story I recommend it to anyone who is willing to read it.
      Here is a link to an online copy.

      http://www.shsu.edu/~eng_wpf/authors/Twain/Mysterious-Stranger.htm

    • 1 year ago
  • vaxart
  • UtopianSky
    • 0
      UtopianSky  

    • Eventually religion will disappear, no doubt about it- but it will happen gradually.

      I think that religions wil evolve, as all things evolve. The magical parts will disappear, resulting in something that is nothing more than a cultural label with sets of traditions, holidays, and rituals that have no other meaning.

      For example, Judaism and Hinduism are both practically secular. Many Jews are atheists, many Hindus believe the gods are just symbols, not actual beings. to them, religion is about family and culture.

      I think all religions will evolve that way, and eventually the word "Christian" will simply mean someone from Europe or it's former colonies.

      Then, as cultures (and races and languages) are more and more intertwined, those labels will disappear as well.

    • 1 year ago
  • Kitten_of_D00M
  • gepma44
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • gepma44
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • noxidereus
    • +6
      noxidereus  

    • Religiosity is directly proportional to fear and ignorance.

      By ignorance I do not mean stupidity - I mean lack of knowledge in this one specific area. Unfortunately many very good and well-meaning people have been duped by organized religion -- which is nothing more than a means to control, fleece, and placate the masses. Religious people need only to look at religions other than their own to see that this is true. The next logical step is to apply that realization to one's own religion.

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • noxidereus
  • gepma44
  • Slingingstones
  • EthicalVegan
  • gepma44
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • Mark701
    • +1
      Mark701  

    • This really doesn't predict the end of religion (unfortunately). It simply predicts what will become trendy in the years to come. As long as human beings are prone to confusion instead of clarity and fear in lieu of courage, organized religion will always be with us in one manner or another. It may briefly go into hiding but is always prepared to jump out of the shadows to take advantage of mans moral, intellectual and emotional flaws.

    • 1 year ago
  • extracrazykiwi2008
  • persistenz
    • 0
      persistenz  

    • I have read the study, which is basically a math paper rather than
      giving any serious attention to the sociology of religion as such. The
      key flawed assumption is that the so-called utility of religious affiliation is
      exactly the same for each citizen in a given country. That is regardless
      of whether they are frequent religious attenders, people who only go
      occasionally, or atheists. This is assumption is clearly untrue.
      They also assume the utility has changed in the past but will remain constant
      hereafter. Their model does not represent diversity. They do discuss the
      case of different social networks (e.g. regions, races etc.) but then
      they assume the same nationwide utility number applies to every group.
      They do not consider countries where religion is growing at a faster
      rate than non-religion, such as Russia and China (the logic of their
      approach would end up with those becoming 100% religious). They do not
      consider the interplay between countries where religion is growing and
      where it is declining. In short their model is absurdly simplistic.

      In New Zealand the drop in census religion is mostly among people who
      weren't particularly religious anyway (low utility) while the core attenders (high utility) have kept going. The core could be estimated as at least the 20% of New Zealanders who attend religious services at least monthly, or up to the 47% who attend at least yearly for reasons other than weddings, funerals or baptisms(reference the NZ Election Study 2008). Although overall census numbers have dropped, attendances are rising for some churches/religions. One example is the Methodists, one of New Zealand's bigger denominations, which had been declining for years but confounded predictions of pending extinction by growing at the last census.Similarly I think the overall census religion numbers will not go to extinction but eventually bottom out above the core numbers and start to grow again.

    • 1 year ago
  • KSirys
  • NiceN
  • jubal
    • +8
      jubal  

    • God I hope so...I pray for this to happen everyday.

      Maybe a meteor shower will hit the earth and destroy the Vatican, Mecca, Jerusalem, Salt Lake City and the state of Texas....then we can all breath a little easier.

      Organized religion is the whore of government.

    • 1 year ago
  • EthicalVegan
  • gepma44
  • sugarlilly
  • FlexSF
    • +5
      FlexSF  

    • We can sink it here too. We must expose the financial donations of the Religious/Republican/Political Corporations, and make them pay, severely, for everything the Republican party does to us.

    • 1 year ago
  • demsbeans527
  • FLeggplant
    • +5
      FLeggplant  

    • Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
      Then he is not omnipotent.
      Is he able, but not willing?
      Then he is malevolent.
      Is he both able,and willing?
      Then whence cometh evil?
      Is he neither able nor willing?
      Then why call him God?
      Epicurus

      These words make so much sense.
      How anyone can believe in any Religion based on a so-called God who allows such suffering & evil in the World makes no sense at all.

    • 1 year ago
  • Ares
    • -4
      Ares  
    • FLeggplant:

      Perhaps people that believe in God would suggest that if God provided a world free of evil then the inhabitants of such a world would not know that they were living in paradise. You can't have a concept of "tall" unless you have a concept of "short."

      Quoting philosophers is wonderful, until you realize that for every philosopher that has ever been quote-worthy, there are 10 others rebuking what the original idea stipulates.

      So sayeth the philosophy degree holder, Ares.

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • +4
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • FLeggplant:

      From Greek philosopher Epicurus, courtesy of Jonathan Miller’s “A History of Disbelief” on PBS:

      “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
      Then he is not omnipotent.
      Is he able, but not willing?
      Then he is malevolent.
      Is he both able and willing?
      Then whence cometh evil?
      Is he neither able nor willing?
      Then why call him God?

      Pretty sound reasoning to me.
      Gotta love the way the Greeks got to the heart of things.
      Epicurus was Greek from Athens
      the Ancient Greeks were Pagan Polytheists
      who worshipped all the Elemental Gods and Goddesses of the forces of Nature of the Olympian Pantheon

      The way I see it,
      if there is a god,
      than god is either
      a.) Malevolent
      b.) negligent
      or
      c.) incompetent

      the sheer volume of the death, destruction, suffering, sickness, terror, and violence in the world would easily lead any dispassionate outside observer to conclude that, if there is an omnipresent god, then that god MUST be, if not actively participatory in these evils, then at the very least be complicit in their activity.
      This would mean that we would be dealing with a MALEVOLENT, manipulative, vindictive, vengeful, and sadistic sociopath as our god
      if god is IS all-knowing, then god must know such evils exist.
      if god is not an active participant nor an accessory accomplice, and, despite knowing such suffering, violence, death, and destruction exist, either conscientiously chooses not to act, or simply doesn’t care Then god is, at the very least, to be putting it mildly, guilty as charged of the crime of NEGLIGENT Homicide on a truly MASSIVE scale.
      If, knowing that suffering and violence, death and destruction are occurring, this god is, either by his/her/their/its nature or by default, UNABLE to take any action to prevent or even put an end to such evil; then, as the omnipotent lord of all creation, the heavens and the earth, this god would therefore be INCOMPETENT in his/her/their/its duties, and would thereby be unworthy and undeserving to be a god at all

    • 1 year ago
  • gepma44
    • 0
      gepma44  
    • Ian_Judge_Lord:

      nice quotes...hey man ,you notice how when you hit them with something which states your point or is in direct conflict with their belief structucture . they want you to go back to the FAITH part, you know the part where you go against what you know is fundamentaly right or wrong or what is backed up by FACTS and not biblical quotes and hypothesis.I call it the bend over but dont break rule...you know ...kinda like catholic school(plural). Guess im goin to hell. Wait... you mean this isnt hell?.....

    • 1 year ago
  • Kitten_of_D00M
  • FLeggplant
  • wolfess
    • +3
      wolfess  

    • When our children were young we went to church so they would have contact with religion, but as they grew up we all pretty much gave up going to church for Lent and never went back :-). I think many families with young children feel a need to expose themselves and their children to the concept of God and religion just in case there is something to the teachings in the Bible, but I think as kids grow up and parents grow older the 'pull' wanes, and one Sunday they realize it would just be easier to have their own 'day of rest' at home.

    • 1 year ago
  • artemis6
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • artemis6
  • wolfess
  • artemis6
    • 0
      artemis6  
    • wolfess:

      This morning my church was a sparking waterfall , tonight it will be a candle . In the morning it will be the dawn .... or the smile of my little boy's face .

    • 1 year ago
  • Kitten_of_D00M
    • +1
      Kitten_of_D00M  
    • Image
    • wolfess:

      When I was five, my grandparents sent me to church with the neighbors, who were Catholics. I fell asleep several times, clocking myself at least once on the back of the pew in front of me. People were staring, and the neighbors were embarrassed, but I remember thinking about how dumb they were to believe that the dead hippie man in the dress could actually hear them when they talked to him, and that they would get all dressed up on a Sunday for no good reason, and drive across town to waste the whole morning- EVERY WEEK! Oh my god I thought they were soooooo stupid. When my grandparents asked me if I would like to go again, I said no, and that was the end of it.

    • 1 year ago
  • EthicalVegan
  • Monkey_Films
    • -2
      Monkey_Films  

    • The first prediction that religion, especially Christianity would become extinct came from the Bible. It also predicted that this would be announced at the same time that the entire Middle-East erupted in turmoil leading to WWIII. Just something to think about.

    • 1 year ago
  • StandaboveUnderstand
  • wolfess
  • EthicalVegan
  • PoliticalAmazon
    • +4
      PoliticalAmazon  

    • I think most people are "unaffiliated." They may be Christian, but don't follow a particular sect's dogma. Or they may believe in God, but don't believe Jesus is God's son, but was probably a prophet or other exceptional individual.

      I can easily see why religious folks, who truly wanted to follow a religion's or sect's teachings, would be turned off by organized religion, especially here in the United States.

      The hypocrisy and duplicity, as well as avarice and greed, of many of the Christian sects is disgusting, and could easily be the reason so many people no longer want to be affiliated with any particular religion or sect.

    • 1 year ago
  • HarukoHaruhara
  • Kitten_of_D00M
  • asocial
  • theknopfknows
    • 0
      theknopfknows  

    • Organized religion has proven itself to be selfish, not allowing the quest for new knowledge, even though there are almost a billion Hindu+Buddhist,,, another 2 billion Christians, another 1.7 billion Muslims-Islam, and after 5771 years of History the Jew only 14,3 million people.
      Also many people since the 60´s consider themselves spiritual not religious, so Religion-GOD a personal spiritual consciousness not group Rule!
      The countries nine you mentioned were also the nine abused by the church. Church perversions raping blind little boys in Wisconsin does not help the Religious cause. 8500 years of organized religion is not going to disappear anytime soon regardless of the nine suspects. Each having a separate reason for their views but there is no unity in this view of the nine possible extinctions.

    • 1 year ago
  • coolplanet
    • +4
      coolplanet  

    • Since organized religion in the names of Yahweh, Jesus and Allah have driven our planet toward extinction for thousands of years it is only appropriate that they go extinct.
      The Great Spirit approves this message.

    • 1 year ago
  • wolfess
  • coolplanet
    • 0
      coolplanet  
    • wolfess:

      O great Grandmother.
      She really wants another ice age to stay alive for another billion years.
      I hear her clearly.
      That would be a bad thing for all the desert loving religionists.
      But a very good thing for the rest of life on Earth and we still evolving Cro-Magnons.....

    • 1 year ago
  • wolfess
  • Vierotchka
  • Milieu
    • +1
      Milieu  

    • Actually, I'd like to see a comparative analysis between now and previous century's comparative position to now. (socio/political/economic)

      Ebb and flow of strength of Religion has always been there. Is it possible that the Human Race (side bar: who are we racing against? And how do we know when we've won?) is beginning to mature?

    • 1 year ago
  • PoliticalAmazon
  • Ricky84
    • -1
      Ricky84  

    • I have no faith in a god but I also have no faith in the ability of an individual to predict the future because to do so one would either have consider an infinite amount of variables and possibilities or one would have to place an undeserving amount of worth on a body of evidence that could not by virtue of its limitations accurately and consistently produce accurate and persistent predictions of the world.

    • 1 year ago
  • bundlebear
    • +8
      bundlebear  

    • my dad told me this quote from Napoleon Bonaparte and i didn't get it when i was younger
      “Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich”
      makes perfect sense to me now though

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
  • wolfess
  • Leen61
    • +3
      Leen61  

    • As an agnostic, I can see why there is waning support for organized religion. Churchgoers have seen so many religious leaders prove to be anything but "pure of thought." Scandals have raged throughout every religious group in the Western Industrial world. When a group of people sees that the "leader" of the flock is just as corrupt, deviant or greedily materialistic, what would they feel that person has to offer them in any righteous form? People who have a spiritual need are finding that worshipping a higher power can be done outside the frequently hypocritical constraits of organized religion. You'll always have the "true believers" who will look the other way no matter what indiscretions are comitted by their appointed spiritual leader. But those numbers are bound to diminish.

    • 1 year ago
  • ArchDruid
  • artemis6
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • 0
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • ArchDruid:

      The Catholic Church has such an iron-clad grip on the nation of France that their version of our "Easter Bunny" is a Church Bell that magically flies in from Rome
      (for some strange reason its always symbolized pictured laying on a bed of Palm Fronds)

    • 1 year ago
  • PzLuvHappeniz
  • EthicalVegan
  • PzLuvHappeniz
  • randallr01
  • Stoneyroad
  • Kitten_of_D00M
  • August_K
    • +5
      August_K  

    • "Organized Religion"....control of the masses using Fear and Guilt.

      Religions and Dictators have always used one or both.

    • 1 year ago
  • wolfess
  • Prijedor
  • Prijedor
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • +2
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • Prijedor:

      much of the original Hebrew scriptures were written by ignorant and bigoted savages who condoned and promoted animal cruelty ([Joshua 11:6; 2 Samuel 8:4]),
      incest ([Genesis 4, 9:1, 19:30-38, 20:11-12; 2 Samuel 13: 1-15]),
      slavery ([Numbers 31:31-35; Leviticus 25:44-45; Exodus 21:2-7; Ephesians 6:5; 1 Timothy 6:1-2]),
      abuse of slaves ([Exodus 21:7, 20-21; Luke 12:47-48]),
      spousal abuse ([Numbers 5:5-31; Deuteronomy 22:13-21, 28-29; 1 Peter 3:17]),
      child abuse (Genesis 22; Deuteronomy 21:18-21, 23:2; Proverbs 12:10, 20:30, 22:15, 23:13-14; Psalm 137:9]),
      child molestation ([Numbers 31:17-18]),
      abortion (Amos 1:13; 2 Kings: 15:16; Hosea 9:11-16, 13:16; Numbers 5:5-31]),
      and prejudice against race ([Exodus 23:23, 28; Numbers 21:35; Deuteronomy 3:6, 7:1; Matthew 15:22-28]),
      nationality ([Leviticus 25:46; Joshua 6:21-27; Matthew 11:21-24]),
      religion ([2 Kings 10:19-27]),
      sex ([Genesis 38:16-24; Judges 9:53-54, 19:22-29 & 21:10-12; Deuteronomy 21:10-14, 22:23-24, 28-29, 25:11-12; Zechariah 14:1-2; Leviticus 12:1-8, 14, 15:19-30, 18:19, 19:20, 21:9, 27:3-7; Numbers 1:2, 20:13-15, 30:3-16, 31:14-18]),
      and sexual orientation (Deuteronomy 22:5; Leviticus 18:22-23, 2-:13]).
      Why?
      To justify their own inhumanity by claiming to do the will of God.

      Bible has some shocking ‘family values’
      http://judgian12365.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/god-is-the-product-of-human-weaknes...

    • 1 year ago
  • gepma44
  • gepma44
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • 0
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • gepma44:

      ->PILLAGE:
      Genesis 34:
      25 And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the city boldly, and slew all the males.
      26 And they slew Hamor and Shechem his son with the edge of the sword, and took Dinah out of Shechem’s house, and went out.
      27 The sons of Jacob came upon the slain, and spoiled the city, because they had defiled their sister.
      28 They took their sheep, and their oxen, and their asses, and that which was in the city, and that which was in the field,
      29 And all their wealth, and all their little ones, and their wives took they captive, and spoiled even all that was in the house.

      Deuteronomy 20:13-14
      13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
      14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

      Numbers 31:7-12
      7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
      8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
      9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
      10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
      11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
      12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

      ->MURDER: ([Exodus 2:12; Judges 9:5, 11:29-39, 14:19; 2 Samuel 18:15; 1 Kings 2:24-25, 29-34, 46, 9:27, 10:17; 2 Chronicles 21:4; Ezekiel 20:26]),

      CANNIBALISM:
      Leviticus 26:29
      “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”

      Deuteronomy 28:53
      “And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:”

      Isaiah 49:26
      “And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.”

      Jeremiah 19:9
      “And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.”

      Ezekiel 5:10
      “Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.”

      2 Kings 6:29
      “So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”

      And, of course, naturally:
      ->GENOCIDE:
      Exodus 17:13
      “And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.”

      Exodus 32:27
      “And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.”

      Numbers 21:3
      “The LORD heard the voice of Israel and delivered up the Canaanites; then they utterly destroyed them and their cities. Thus the name of the place was called Hormah.”

      Deuteronomy 2:33-34
      33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.
      34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
      Deuteronomy 3:6
      “And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.”

      Deuteronomy 7:2
      “and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.”

      Deuteronomy 20:16-18
      16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
      17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
      18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

      Joshua 8:22-25
      22 Those in the ambush also came out of the city against them, so that they were caught in the middle, with Israelites on both sides. Israel cut them down, leaving them neither survivors nor fugitives.
      23 But they took the king of Ai alive and brought him to Joshua.
      24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it.
      25 Twelve thousand men and women fell that day—all the people of Ai.

      1 Samuel 15:3
      “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”

    • 1 year ago
  • EthicalVegan
  • coucheliberale
  • August_K
  • floydyboy
  • FlexSF
    • +1
      FlexSF  
    • coucheliberale:

      Open your mind. People who don't believe in religion don't consider themselves atheists. This is a term used by religious people who believe that atheism is the opposite of being religious, but they're wrong. Religion is wholly irrelevant to many people, and they are not motivated to be religionless by the people who are. Don't flatter yourself.

    • 1 year ago
  • UrbanGypsy
    • +1
      UrbanGypsy  
    • coucheliberale:

      You make it seem like that is all atheists do - as if though we are not also in to other topics like politics, international relations, economics, etc. Atheists are interested into a whole bunch of things like normal people are.

      Just because someone is Christian doesn't mean they have nothing else to talk about right? (Well, except in some fanatical cases).

      We wouldn't talk as atheists anymore, we'd move on to other topics.

    • 1 year ago
  • gepma44
  • Prijedor
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • +1
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • coucheliberale:

      Atheism is not the belief that there is NO god,
      It is the lack of belief that there IS a god.

      In the same way that darkness is not the opposite of light.
      Darkness is the ABSENCE of light.

      Health, or Being healthy, is not a sickness nor a disease.

    • 1 year ago
  • mikem0487
  • coucheliberale
    • -3
      coucheliberale  
    • mikem0487:

      science answers the "how"..religion answers the "why"..and again science is nothing more than just theory..

      everything that you THINK is fact now, science will disprove itself wrong in a few years..

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • +1
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • coucheliberale:

      The primary reason, among many numerous others, why i choose science over organized religion any given day is, if anything quite simply, the complete LACK of facts.
      Evangelical fundamentalist zealots and ideologues face a significant disadvantage in their perpetual quest to eliminate science; and it is on of their very own invention. Religious extremists most often fail in their attempts to undermine scientific understanding of the physical universe primarily because of their pre-ordained determination of the assumption that such science is a kind of doctrine, much as the dogma to which they blindly subscribe.
      Quite simply, They Could Not Be More Wrong if they tried.
      These fundamentalists take the point of view that everything in their narrow, yet all-encompassing, doctrine is just that, absolute FACT, not up to interpretation, not metaphorical, not interchangeable, not open for discussion.
      They therefore, not unsurprisingly, assume that scientist view their naturalistic “laws” in much a similar way.
      Very directly to the contrary, the most extraordinary thing about science itself, and the reason it has persisted throughout 2+ millennia of constant siege, is the simple reality that in Science There ARE No Facts.

      The term “scientific law” is a misleading misnomer, there are only theories.
      The most repeatedly affirmed scientific theorems are as follows:
      The THEORY Universal Gravitation, proposed by Sir Isaac Newton in Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica; 1687
      The THEORY of Descent with Modification through Natural Selection, proposed by Charles Darwin in On the Origin of Species; 1859.
      The THEORY of Friction was first proposed by Leonardo Da Vinci.
      The THEORY of Quantum Mechanics was put forward by Niels Bohr, Michael Farraday, Max Planck, Robert Oppenheimer and Albert Einstein.

      Science is not perfect, and it does not answer every question, but it is based on observations which can be predicted tested, and proven.
      The scientific process, as first put forth by Rene Descartes ([““Je Pense, Donc Je Suis.” (“Cogito, Ergo sum.”) [“I Think, Therefore I Am.”]]) proceeds as follows:
      Problem
      Hypothesis
      Experimentation
      Observation
      Conclusion
      I have yet to find an organized religion which incorporates any, very much less all, of these elements.

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • +1
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • coucheliberale:

      “The hardest thing to understand
      Is why we can understand anything at all.”
      -Albert Einstein

      There 6 basic fundamental questions that explain everything that ever happens anywhere in the physical universe:
      "WHO?,
      WHAT?,
      WHERE?,
      WHEN?,
      HOW?,
      and WHY?"

      Science, or the scientific Method
      ([Problem,
      Hypothesis,
      Experimentation,
      Observation,
      Conclusion])
      can completely answer all of 5 of the 6 questions:
      Who, What, Where, When and How

      “When it is not in our power to follow what is true,
      We ought to follow what is most probable.”
      -Rene Descartes

      The entire sole purpose of FAITH
      (notice: i did not say "RELIGION". I am not talking about Religion, i'm talking about FAITH, which is something entirely completely different from Religion.])
      is to answer the Sixth and final question.
      and that is ALL faith could, or can ever do.

      Whenever Faith attempts to answer any of the other five questions, faith rapidly mutates into Religion, and many horrific and terrifying things soon ensue.

      There is no WHO in faith.
      There is no WHAT in Faith.
      There is no WHERE in faith.
      There is no WHEN in Faith.
      and there is no HOW in faith.

      Whenever "Who?" enters into faith, it turns into religion.
      Whenever "What?" becomes a part of faith, it becomes religion.
      Wherever "Where?" is part of faith, it changes to a religion.
      Whenever "When?" comes into faith, it turns into religion.
      However "How?" is a part of faith, it changes into religion.

      When faith changes into religion, criminal atrocities are the inevitable and irrevocable end result.

      "Those who can make you believe absurdities,
      Can make you commit atrocities."
      -Francois Voltaire

      But, on the other hand, by the very same token, whenever Science attempts to answer the question: "Why?"
      That is the only time that science ever fails.

      “Everything has been figured out, except how to live.”
      -Jean-Paul Sartre

      Science can tell us Who was involved, What happened, Where it took place, When it occurred, and How it happened.
      But there is no science that can ever determine WHY what happened occurred how it did.
      if for no other reason that the entire question of "Why?" is not objective.
      The presumption that all things happen for a reason is entirely subjective, it is a belief, not a fact, not a reality.
      There can be no physical evidence or proof for that belief.
      That is the very definition of faith
      which has no part in science.
      There is, and can be no scientific evidence that everything happens for a reason.
      it cannot be proven that everything does indeed happen for a reason.
      Therefore, by all evidence, the question of "Why?" does not apply to everything, as do the other five questions.
      Everything happens to someone (Who).
      Everything that has ever happened in history happened (What).
      Everything thing happens at some place (Where).
      Everything happens at some point in time (When).
      Everything happens in some way (How).
      Not Everything that happens happens for some reason (Why).
      The Question "Why?" is therefore entirely unscientific.

      "Who are you?" Said the Caterpillar.
      Alice replied rather shyly; "I hardly know, Sir, just at present.
      At least I knew who I was when I got up this morning,
      But I must have changed several times since then."
      -Lewis Carroll

    • 1 year ago
  • BenjaminDover
    • +2
      BenjaminDover  

    • The USSR suppressed religion for eight decades, yet when the communists fell from power religion once again reared its ugly head. Religion is like mold, you can scrub it away but you never really get rid of the smell and once you turn your back it pops up again.

    • 1 year ago
  • coucheliberale
    • -7
      coucheliberale  
    • BenjaminDover:

      people tend to forget religion when they reached that comfort zone..once they get hit by a "disaster" or anything that takes the feeling of power away from man..then they discover God again..this cycle repeats itself since the start of recorded history..

      and science, by the way, is nothing but all theory....it evolves..so there is nothing absolute about it.

    • 1 year ago
  • PzLuvHappeniz
  • BenjaminDover
    • 0
      BenjaminDover  
    • coucheliberale:

      I think religion probably does wax and wane like a sine wave rather than just a straight decrease. The evolution (a theory itself) is the true beauty of science, each scientist adds to the understanding of our universe and challenges the next person to explain it better.
      Religion says this is the way it is you are not allowed to question a multi- millennial old storybook compiled of stories plagiarized from history. Eventually such superstitions will go the way of the gods of old, although paganism does seem alot more fun than the boring one god scam.

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • 0
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • BenjaminDover:

      The whole idea that the Best-selling book of all time, a collection of allegorical fables and fanciful fantastical hallucinogenic induced dreams, must have been dictated to its multiple authors by some non-corporeal, amorphous, higher intelligence; and that human beings, all by themselves and irregardless of any greater power, could not have come up with the “Thou Shalt Not Kill” of the Ten Commandments, the “To Everything There is A Season And A time For Every Purpose Under Heaven” of Ecclesiastes, or the “Blessed are the Peacemakers” of Sermon on the Mount
      for my own personal self, in my opinion, this demeans the capabilities of Human Beings, and the great things that the Human race as a species are more than capable of accomplishing

    • 1 year ago
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • 0
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • PzLuvHappeniz:

      The Bible was very definitely written by men, and not superior men either; far from it!
      This is why so much of it can be shown to be historically and scientifically dead wrong about damned-near everything back-to-front.
      If the Bible had been written by a supreme being, then it wouldn’t contain the mistakes that it does.
      If it was written by a truly superior being, and meant to be read as a literal history, then the Bible wouldn’t contain anything that it does.

    • 1 year ago
  • BenjaminDover
  • Ian_Judge_Lord
    • 0
      Ian_Judge_Lord  
    • BenjaminDover:

      The Darwinian Process of Descent with Modification via Natural Selection [Known as "Evolution"] concluded many billions of years of selection, culminating in the production of the Platypus: A North American Beaver with the Tail of a Muskrat, the bill of a duck, and poisonous spiny barbs on its webbed toes, which happens to lay eggs like a bird or reptile.

      The process of Descent with Modification through Natural Selection, known in shorthand as Evolution, has produced a nearly hairless bipedal terrestrial primate with a relatively large brain for its body size, but with relatively very poor olfactory and auditory senses as well as visual acuity when compared to other mammalian species. The ape’s heavy dense bones do not permit flight and greatly hinder its swimming capabilities, and it’s mostly hairless and thin (easily punctured) skin and fleshy musculature make it vulnerable susceptible to the elements in harsh environments, necessitating its constant construction of artificial housing structures to live in.

      An inconvenient truth if ever I saw one, and, to me, a profoundly unsettling one at that.

    • 1 year ago
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