tagged w/ God
So Says Penny Nance
This is UNBELIEVABLE, to say the least. The religious-right-wing has become the most preposterous purveyors of absolute lunacy and they keep getting more deranged and out-&-out silly with each passing day (minute). We seem to think that their outrageousness means nothing and will not hurt anyone but their senselessness is reaching a point where it is starting to sound menacing. This woman, Penny Nance’s prattle that ‘Reason’ led to one of the most horrific crimes of any century is not only monstrous it's unsubstantial (putting it extremely mild)! Who is she preaching to? Fox News has become synonymous with WHACKO and it’s about time, someone (maybe with some power) tells them so. Their viewers (America) deserve so much more. thinkingblue
MORE HERE: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/02/fox-news-guest-scientific-enlightenment-and-reason-led-to-the-holocaust/
More Think Atheirst Here :http://www.thinkatheist.com/
WHAT EXACTLY IS MORAL RELATIVISM?
What a difficult subject to research, any so called answers you come across are subjective and quite personal to each person or oganization who tries to explain (objectively) exactly what is meant by Moral Relativism. I had a very hard time trying to pick the one that suited ME for Pity’s Sake. I finally decided on this one (below) although ME, MYSELF and I, still have problems with it.
What is relativism?
Archbishop Piero Marini closes the door of the Sistine Chapel for the conclave… There was no way in for moral relativism at conclave…
Shortly before he was elected pope, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger delivered a withering denunciation of relativism. For those unfamiliar with even the blunter points of philosophy, what was he driving at?
Moral relativism is the idea that moral principles have no objective standard, so states its dictionary definition.
In its extreme, the view that there are no hard and fast rules on what is right and wrong, on which values are set and should be fought for.
It is in contrast to absolutism, that there is one truth.
One man's meat...
Relativism is "Different opinions, no one authority, and as many 'truths' as there are people or societies or cultures advancing different ways of doing things," says Simon Blackburn, Professor of Philosophy at Cambridge University.
It is easy, he says, "to give relativism a slogan: Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. One man's meat is another man's poison." And when that is applied to ethics, then goodness, virtue and duty also lie in the eye of the beholder. MORE HERE: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4460673.stm
Richard Dawkins’ Ten Commandments, from his book The God Delusion, is the credo I like best. thinkingblue
Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.
In all things, strive to cause no harm.
Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.
Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.
Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.
Always seek to be learning something new.
Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.
Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.
Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.
PS: I wish Penny Nance would read these commandments as well as her ilk, there at Fox News. They could possibly learn what being NICE is all about.So Says Penny Nance This is UNBELIEVABLE, to say the least. The... more
ESPN On NBA 1st Draft Pick Jason Collins Coming Out! "Homosexuality In An Open Rebellion Against GodESPN On NBA 1st Draft Pick Jason Collins Coming Out! "Homosexuality In An Open Rebellion Against GodESPN On NBA 1st Draft Pick Jason Collins Coming Out! "Homosexuality In An Open... more
Tragic happenings like the murders at the Boston Marathon, where even young children and innocent people are killed often make people ask, WHERE IS GOD? We hear and see it written fairly often. Some folk even go so far as to assume that the fact that God seemingly doing nothing in an awful situation like this, is just another proof that he does not exist. Think again not from the emotional point of view of a being that lives about 70 or 80 years and think that is of utmost importance. God indeed has taken all these things into consideration and unlike us has made provisions for it. There is a method to what often looks like madness to fleshy short lived human beings.
http://www.examiner.com/article/why-god-allows-evil-pain-and-suffering-part-2Tragic happenings like the murders at the Boston Marathon, where even young children... more
This will be the largest telescope in the world until the Europeans finish building an even bigger one. The European Extremely Large Telescope will have a 138-foot-long mirror.
http://www.itechpost.com/articles/7830/20130414/hawaii-telescope-mauna-kea-big-island-university-of-hawaii.htmThis will be the largest telescope in the world until the Europeans finish building an... more
The first ad resulting from the long-rumored partnership between Chrysler’s Dodge Ram truck division and God was unveiled at the Superbowl on Sunday. Critics applauded the commercial. The spot was voted the “Best Ad” by the New York Times, Adweek, Ad Age, Ad Hd, and others. It scored a 96 likeability rating on the Dreyfus Consumer Poll conducted immediately following the broadcast.
John Michael Luke, brand manager for the truck division, says he is delighted with the results. “This is the sort of recognition any marketer would sell their soul for,” he said. “It’s marketing heaven.” He declined to comment on rumors that future spots are in the works featuring Tim Tebow and Lolo Jones.The first ad resulting from the long-rumored partnership between Chrysler’s... more
I see a world where sickness and hunger is obsolete where one mans position is no more important than another, a world where hope and aspiration is abound and where we can focus on reality than force fed lies. I see a world where one could travel the globe whithout a "hall pass", or share the culture of an area as if it were in his own back yard. I see a world where ones charachter is measured by what he has given up to others rather what he has Taken away$$$, I see a world where common goals are achieved by collective thought and collective actions, not by divisional criticism. I see a world of people, not a world of corporations, I see a world of HOPE, FAITH,CHARITY, KINDNESS, GRACE AND COMPASSION....But most of all I see a world of LOVE...LOVE, for thy self and thy family(for this is where it starts), LOVE, for thy neighbor(for understanding others helps us to understand ourselves),LOVE, for all living things(for as we have a right to live on this planet they do as well),LOVE for our planet (for mother earth gave birth to us, without her we do not exist), and LOVE for the creator(for it is LOVE manifested that gives rise to creation)....GOD IS LOVE !
A lil bit more for those having doubt ... as we love each other or have attraction for another, we show a bonding, kind of a sharing of feeling, in example the love a child has for its mother and vise versa. there is connection,now take into example a boy to his dog and a dog to its human(i am refraining from the word master). The connection remains as a uncontrollable force that attracts us towards an object...so love being attraction, one must consider the natural law of attraction, now in the scope of a molecule...a specific molecule Hydrogen...it is the lightest substane on earth yet one would be inclined to believe it would be abundant in the upper levels of the atmosphere...but its not so, it is much happier bonding with an oxygen or carbon, this boding could be discribed as its LOVE or connection... now back to my previous statement love manifested gives rise to creation,consider the sun is comprised of tons and tons of hydrogen its attraction so great that the attaction, in such a mega scale, creates fusion energy "light"... Our bodies being comprised of mostly water... it is not of our nature to repel but to attract. It is proven a child that isn't touched or held will cry, to attract attention to itself primarily its mother...and it will die without the attraction/connection being made "LOVE" ...it is divine, it is light and it loves everything it touches. It gives us warmth light and life.
On the contrary lets take a scripture from the bible "Let he who has understanding recon the number of the beast... for it is a HUMAN number 6-6-6" ...the sixth element on the periodic table is Carbon 6-electrons, 6-neutrons, 6-protons. consider 7-7-7 nitrogen, and 8-8-8 oxygen,this is another story... I dedicate this submission to Kenny Motown(who would be the first to either agree or rebuttle my theory), one who has devoted his time and effort to give us consice, accurate information. Now if only I knew how to put a chart here...Thanks KennyI see a world where sickness and hunger is obsolete where one mans position is no more... more
Rapist let women go after one victim says she turned to prayer
Is the notion of "God" outdated? Or can it be changed to accommodate science and modern culture?Is the notion of "God" outdated? Or can it be changed to accommodate science... more
Posted by Jeffery Jay Lowder . . at 12/20/2012 11:29:00 AM
William Lane Craig is right. There has been "a resurgence of interest in arguments for God's existence ." So-called "new atheists" aside, what he fails to mention is that there has also been a resurgence of interest in arguments against God's existence by philosophers like J.L. Schellenberg, Quentin Smith, Paul Draper, Stephen Maitzen, Michael Martin, and many others.
Indeed, Craig's biased, selective summary of recent work in philosophy of religion, like many of the arguments for God's existence, understates the relevant evidence. As Draper has persuasively argued, these arguments, at best, successfully identify general facts which are evidence for God's existence. They ignore other, more specific facts, which are evidence against God's existence.
For example, assume that the beginning of the universe is evidence for God's existence. Given that the universe began to exist, the fact that it began to exist with time, not in time, is more probable on naturalism than on theism.
To read the rest of this post, click here: http://secularoutpost.infidels.org/2012/12/WLC-humanism-reply.htmlPosted by Jeffery Jay Lowder . . at 12/20/2012 11:29:00 AM William Lane Craig is... more
James Dobson, the founder of the social conservative Focus on the Family, joined Mike Huckabee and Bryan Fischer in blaming the shootings in Newtown, Conn., on Americans who have "turned our back on God," and embraced abortion and gay marriage.
Well, I respectfully disagree. While reading this tripe about this right-wing knuckle-dragger, a thought occurred to me: Why is it that whenever God unleashes his wrath, it's always onto his followers? Why does the hammer never fall on an Atheist? Why, if Atheists are so evil, does God never smite one of them? For that matter, why, if he hates homosexuals so vehemently, has God not simply condemned all of them to oblivion with a snap of his "all-mighty" fingers? Is he simply unable to do it? Why does the burden always fall upon those who are devoutly loyal to him to convince the rest of the world that they have suffered an incredible injustice because homosexuals, atheists and other assorted "evil" people exist? Why does he hide?
There is a man I know for whom I have zero respect. His name is Brian.
Continue reading here - http://www.superbious.com/Religious/article_107_Really-James-Dobson-blames-gays-abortion-for-shootings.htmlJames Dobson, the founder of the social conservative Focus on the Family, joined Mike... more
God vs. Mental Illness. And why twenty-seven people had to pay the price for our country's mistakes.As more and more details emerge about the Sandy Hook tragedy, I find myself finding it physically difficult to click on the articles. Everything I read affects me more and more, and sometimes I just don't know if I can handle it. As a parent, reading that your nightmare actually happened to someone else is about the worst thing you can read. But I make myself do it, because ignoring the news is exactly how this happened. We need to feel sad and we need to feel outraged. Any significant change in history was caused by a group of outraged citizens, and we owe it to the twenty-seven victims to make sure this doesn’t happen again. Twenty five- and six-year-olds died, and I cannot accept that it was for nothing.
Gun control debates have been a hot topic ever since the shooting. While some people complained these debates are happening too soon after the incident, I disagree. It is never too soon to try to prevent a similar thing from happening. Do you think another disturbed individual will avoid shooting up a school, mall, or movie theater because it is "too soon?" The NRA Facebook page has gone dark, and the Discovery Channel has cancelled a show about a family in the gun business called "American Guns." A California senator has vowed to introduce a bill banning assault rifles when Congress comes back in session.
Right now, everyone is talking about guns. While gun control has always and will always be a popular debate, it is at the forefront right now. I am not a gun person; they scare me, I have never even held one, and hunting disgusts me. That being said, guns are necessary for hunting, and while I am not a fan of it, I also don't want to a hit a deer every two feet when driving. Since we have killed off most of their natural predators, man is the only way to keep their population in check. So, while hunting isn't for me personally, I am not against it. But why would anyone want to hunt with an assault rifle or other automatic weapon? Doesn't it kind of take the challenge out of hunting? You might as well blow up part of a forest and then go in and grab the deer carcass. It doesn't seem to require a whole lot of skill, and seeing as very few people are hunting for necessity anymore, I don't see the need for assault weapons. I also think there should be background checks and waiting periods, but in this case, it wouldn't have made a difference. His mother's guns were the ones used, and his mother didn't have any sort of criminal record. So, while a ban on automatic weapons would've made a difference, I don't feel like the gun control argument is really as important as the media is making it in preventing another tragedy of this magnitude.
http://www.superbious.com/Religious/article_105_God-vs-Mental-Illness.htmlAs more and more details emerge about the Sandy Hook tragedy, I find myself finding it... more
In an effort to strengthen and support kids and teenagers who don’t happen to believe in a god, the American Humanist Association is promoting its newly created website: KidsWithoutGod.com. This engaging resource offers a welcoming home for humanist, atheist and other non-traditionally religious kids where they can find information untainted by supernaturalism on a wide range of topics, including religion in public schools, science, discrimination, sexuality, and reading suggestions.
Read the full press release here: http://www.americanhumanist.org/news/details/2012-11-national-ad-campaign-to-promote-kidswithoutgodcom-on-2In an effort to strengthen and support kids and teenagers who don’t happen to... more
Election GOPocalypse — Hurricane Sandy : Obama’s Mightiest Surrogate? Haley Barbour & Karl Rove Think So. God, Who Gets The Last Word, Does Not.Halleh Lew YAH!! http://latestbloomer.uskoa.com/?p=2141
Stand for you're Dreams Stand for true Freedom.
Stand when a corporation puts profit over people.
Stand with they make someones concept of love
Stand when they say all people should have the same
faith. Stand when they create WAR for profit sake.
American Think Tanks
and Fox News
can no longer be the path to take.
The foundation is week and starting to shake.
When evil seems to be the only plan,
We Must Be Able 2 Stand.
Music Dj Toshbiko
Dj Toshbiko-ZEN77-Music BCW Dj Toshbiko (Created with Magisto)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUUk7YZeei8Stand for you're Dreams Stand for true Freedom. Stand when a corporation puts... more
From the Onion:
THE HEAVENS—Responding to inflammatory remarks made by Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock during a debate Tuesday night, Our Lord God the Almighty Father sought today to distance Himself from both Mourdock and the entire right-wing fundamentalist Christian movement, sources confirmed.
“I want to make one thing absolutely clear: Mr. Mourdock’s comments from last night in no way reflect my position on this or any other issue,” said the Divine Creator, speaking at a press conference this afternoon to address Mourdock’s remarks that rape-induced pregnancies were God’s intent. “And furthermore, I would like to take this opportunity to say definitively that I, God, do not officially sanction or condone the words or actions of anyone involved in the fanatical, conservative Christian faction that Mr. Mourdock represents.”
“Many people hear my name in connection with the Christian Right and start to assume we are aligned in some capacity, and I’m here to say, for the record, that we are not,” God continued. “So let me just be clear: I don’t want women to get raped—not ever. I don’t think their resulting pregnancies are my divine will. And if a woman is raped, then she has the right to get an abortion, period. I do not agree with Mourdock. I do not agree with the Christian Right. End of story.”
Calling Mourdock’s comments “the last straw,” the Lord Our Maker explained that while in the past there have been a few areas where He and the religious Right have been in agreement, more often than not, in recent years, He and Christian conservatives have grown “actually quite far apart” on a wide range of issues.
NEWS IN BRIEF
'Mother Mary Was Essentially Raped,' Mourdock Says While Digging Self Into Deeper Hole
God then went on to cite several incidents—ranging from the Westboro Baptist Church’s “God Hates Fags” campaign to Missouri Senate candidate Todd Akin’s remark this year that victims of “legitimate rape” rarely get pregnant—as examples of what He described as “an unmistakable and disturbing trend toward intolerance that I do not support.”
“What these people are saying betrays a worldview that is, frankly, completely different from my own, and it embarrases me to even hear my name mentioned alongside theirs,” God told reporters, emphatically. “For example, I’m not into capital punishment at all, or really killing in general, so I’m not sure where that whole talking point came from. On the same token, I don’t like guns very much, and I certainly wouldn’t say that everyone has a right to own guns—that’s absurd. Unlike Mr. Mourdock and many Christian Republicans, I agree with the overwhelming majority of climate scientists that global warming poses a major threat to the planet and must be addressed. I also believe stem cell research is very useful, and I think that if you’re gay, that’s fine by me.”
“Even on some economic issues we don’t quite see eye-to-eye,” continued the Eternal One, a self-described Keynesian who said He has “serious doubts” about the merits of trickle-down economics. “And, you know, a lot of this stuff is in the Ten Commandments, too, so I’m already on record as being not in agreement with a good majority of the Christian Right’s views. In fact, in the future, if people could just refrain from grouping us together in any way, I think that would be ideal.”
“That includes members of the Christian Right themselves—if they could stop talking about me entirely, that would be preferable,” God added. “In the end, probably best if we just completely went our separate ways here.”
At press time, God’s son, Jesus Christ, offered a countering view and confirmed He strongly believes pregnancies resulting from rape are, in fact, God’s gift.From the Onion: THE HEAVENS—Responding to inflammatory remarks made by... more
A judge ruled Thursday that cheerleaders at an East Texas high school can display banners emblazoned with Bible verses at football games, saying the school district's ban on the practice appears to violate the students' free speech rights.
District Judge Steve Thomas granted an injunction requested by the Kountze High School cheerleaders allowing them to continue displaying religious-themed banners pending the outcome of a lawsuit, which is set to go to trial next June 24, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said. Thomas previously granted a temporary restraining order allowing the practice to continue.
School officials barred the cheerleaders from displaying banners with religious messages such as, "If God is for us, who can be against us," after the Freedom From Religion Foundation complained. The advocacy group says the messages violate the First Amendment clause barring the government — or a publicly funded school district, in this case — from establishing or endorsing a religion.
Gov. Rick Perry, who appointed Thomas, a fellow Republican, to the district court to fill a vacancy, issued a statement welcoming the ruling.
"Today's ruling is a victory for all who cherish our inalienable right to freedom of speech and religious expression," Perry said. "I am proud of the cheerleaders at Kountze ISD for standing firm in the knowledge of these endowed rights and their willingness to be an example in defending those rights, which a secular group has needlessly tried to take away."
Abbott, who filed court papers seeking to intervene in the lawsuit on behalf of the cheerleaders, also issued a statement commending the ruling.
"Students' ability to express their religious views adds to the diversity of thought that has made this country so strong," Abbott said.
Abbott argued that the Texas Education Code also states that schools must respect the rights of students to express their religious beliefs.
"It is the individual speech of the cheerleaders and not in fact the government speaking," David Starnes, the cheerleaders' attorney said, according to KDFM television. "It is not just one girl or one person in the group that comes up with the quote, but it's on a rotating basis that each girl gets to pick the quote. That is their individual voices that are being portrayed on the banner."
Thomas Brandt, the attorney representing the school district, said the superintendent had acted to comply within existing legal rulings.
The Anti-Defamation League issued a statement in which it called the judge's decision misguided.
"Public schools are for children of all faiths or no faith, and these banners were clearly being displayed in the context of school-sponsored activities," the group said. "Faith is a profoundly personal decision, so students should not be subjected to an exclusionary school-sponsored religious message on campus or be forced to choose between attending quintessential school events — football games — or being subjected to an unwanted religious message."
The Freedom From Religion Foundation, which is dedicated to the separation of church and state, said it is ready to provide legal assistance to anyone living in the school district who wants to join the lawsuit to ban religious banners at school events.
"Since the state's top law enforcer, Attorney General Greg Abbott, and its highest executive officer, Gov. Rick Perry, have openly expressed contempt for atheists and the Establishment Clause, this leads to a climate of intolerance," Dan Barker, the group's co-president, said. "It takes courage to face down the full apparatus of state government."
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/judge-expected-rule-bible-verse-banner-suit-17506646A judge ruled Thursday that cheerleaders at an East Texas high school can display... more
Another Christian organization is howling at the moon because their special tax exemption, which non-religious groups don’t get, isn’t special enough. The right wing Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) organization is urging pastors into the pulpit to preach politics instead of God. Pulpit Freedom Sunday is an effort to force the IRS to take the pastors to court for breaking the law so they can sue and argue the prohibition against taking a perk and making political endorsements too is a violation of the First Amendment.
“We’re hoping the IRS will respond by doing what they have threatened,” Erik Stanley, ADF’s Sr. Legal Counsel said. “We have to wait for it to be applied to a particular church or pastor so that we can challenge it [the Johnson Act] in court. We don’t think it’s going to take long for a judge to strike this down as unconstitutional.”Another Christian organization is howling at the moon because their special tax... more
and the reason why an Anti-Islam filmmaker is in hiding.
First off this horrific and very sad event is one of the reasons why I believe all Fundamentalists are wacky. Someone makes a film debunking Mohammed as a godlike creature and depicts him only as a flesh and blood life form (which he was as well as Jesus et al.) with all the susceptibility that comes with being human and the next thing you know... some mob inculcated to believe what is UNBELIEVABLE, starts to murder anyone resembling the one who dared render a pejorative opinion about their particular Supernatural Being… (The most alarming and chilling aspect about these attacks are: it doesn’t matter if they get the one who, in their eyes, is the guilty perpetrator, they kill anyone who simply resembles the guy…) Silly me, I thought religion and god was about teaching human beings to get along with one another.
From what I’ve experienced since I came out of the atheist closet was that contrasting religions teach the opposite of getting along. It appears, all religious belief systems, similar or dissimilar, that have been manufactured around the globe, tell their believers that theirs is the only True Belief and all others should be denounced as false.
And so, the birth of intolerance thus began. Of course I jest, the true birth of intolerance began when a primitive human-form from one tribe saw an unfamiliar human-form from another tribe and thought it food. thinkingblue
Anti-Islam filmmaker in hiding after protests
By SHAYA TAYEFE MOHAJER
LOS ANGELES (AP) — An Israeli filmmaker based in California went into hiding after a YouTube trailer of his movie attacking Islam's prophet Muhammad sparked angry assaults by ultra-conservative Muslims on U.S. missions in Egypt and Libya. The U.S. ambassador to Libya and three American members of his staff were killed.
Speaking by phone Tuesday from an undisclosed location, writer and director Sam Bacile remained defiant, saying Islam is a cancer and that the 56-year-old intended his film to be a provocative political statement condemning the religion.
Protesters angered over Bacile's film opened fire on and burned down the U.S. consulate in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi. Libyan officials said Wednesday that Ambassador Chris Stevens was killed Tuesday night when he and a group of embassy employees went to the consulate to try to evacuate staff as the building came under attack by a mob firing machine guns and rocket propelled grenades.
In Egypt, protesters scaled the walls of the U.S. embassy in Cairo and replaced an American flag with an Islamic banner.
"This is a political movie," said Bacile. "The U.S. lost a lot of money and a lot of people in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we're fighting with ideas."
Bacile, a California real estate developer who identifies himself as an Israeli Jew, said he believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam's flaws to the world. MORE HERE: http://news.yahoo.com/anti-islam-filmmaker-hiding-protests-042924045.html
PS: I came across this blog which sums it up so eloquently:
Born Wild (The Wild One: Part Four)
One summer’s morning, around the age of 13, I was biking down a leafy tree-lined street in my hometown when I happened upon someone I had not seen in awhile. He was a boy a year younger than me, and he had a reputation for being wild. I suspect his reputation was owed more to his frank honesty, though, than to his actual wildness. In that small town, you tended to collect all sorts of reputation — if you were honest.
He and I entwined the handlebars of our bikes — a trick that stabilized the bikes nicely, allowing us to sit them without needing to put our feet down to stay upright. Then we were off telling each other all the news fit to forget. And I have indeed forgotten most of it, but the one thing I still vividly recall came towards the end of our conversation when my friend confided that he’d recently had an experience of indescribable bliss. I had never heard of the word, “bliss”, and had to ask what it was.
As he spoke, his face took on a radiance somewhere between happiness and joy. He told me he didn’t know the right words to describe his experience, but it had to be what adult‘s meant when they talked of being “seized by the Holy Spirit“. Though only twelve, he was completely serious. And he was certain — absolutely certain — he’d discovered life’s greatest and most precious gift.
While I was skeptical of his claims to being seized by the supernatural, I could not ignore his sincerity. Consequently, I hung on every word until the very moment I suddenly recognized he was talking about his having discovered masturbation.
http://cafephilos.wordpress.com/2011/06/10/born-wild-the-wild-one-part-four/and the reason why an Anti-Islam filmmaker is in hiding. First off this horrific... more
SEE GOD SHIRDI SAIBABA APPEARING NEAR THE SUN IN THE SKY ON 12-07-2012. 12072012808.mp4. SEE "theneilriver" USER CHANNEL IN YOUTUBE TO SEE 661 VIDEOS OF GODS APPEARING IN SKY.SEE GOD SHIRDI SAIBABA APPEARING NEAR THE SUN IN THE SKY ON 12-07-2012.... more