Tech | June 22, 2008 | 113 comments

Plans for a 4,000mph underwater train from New York to London

source: http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-04/trans-atlantic-maglev

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"Vacuum Tube Train: A 4,000-mph magnetically levitated train could allow you to have lunch in Manhattan and still get to London in time for the theater, despite the 5-hour time difference. It’s not impossible: Norway has studied neutrally buoyant tunnels (concluding that they’re feasible, though expensive), and Shanghai is running maglev trains to its airport. But supersonic speeds require another critical step: eliminating the air—and therefore air friction—from the train’s path. A vacuum would also save the tunnel from the destructive effects of a sonic boom, which, unchecked, could potentially rip the tunnel apart." "As envisioned by Frankel and Frank Davidson, a former MIT researcher and early member of the first formal English Channel Tunnel study group, sections of neutrally buoyant tunnel submerged 150 to 300 feet beneath the surface of the Atlantic, then anchored to the seafloor–thereby avoiding the high pressures of the deep ocean. Then air would be pumped out, creating a vacuum, and alternating magnetic pulses would propel a magnetically levitated train capable of speeds up to 4,000 mph across the pond in an hour. As Frankel and Davidson say, it's doable. "We lay pipes and cables across the ocean every day," says Frankel. "The Norwegians recently investigated submerged, floating tunnels for crossing their deep fjords, and were only held back by the costs."-Carl Hoffman
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113 comments // Plans for a 4,000mph underwater train from New York to London

  • Muhammad_Faraz
  • Muhammad_Faraz
  • conspiracyfactualist
    • 0
      conspiracyfactualist  

    • They already have a train like this going out to the various deep underground basis in the southwest

      New mexico Nevada etc.

      Mainstream science always pretend to not have these things which makes them look absolutely ridiculous.

    • 4 months ago
  • Buddha_s_Basement
  • jaghetiya
  • David_Gillies
  • PerfectSecurit1
  • __________1
  • __________1
  • Anup_Tiwari
  • Alex_Watson
  • JoshuaKosches
  • PlayTheGrid
  • Shreya_Rana
  • JarrettGoodloe
  • Jesse_Scala
  • Anup_Tiwari
  • nrc2021
  • Damo_Currie
    • 0
      Damo_Currie  
    • Shreya_Rana:

      you have to take into considerations like depth imagine how much support this thing would need to reach a few miles down to the bottom , but that being said id like to see the specs on the tunnel as the water pressure combined with a vacuum is going to to insane ammount of pressure on the structure ,going under the ocean might be a better option

    • 1 year ago
  • Ty_Emzone
    • 0
      Ty_Emzone  

    • Yeah, I will definitely climb willingly aboard a machine that will hurtle me at a mile a second under the ocean. I assume that a lobotomy is provided prior to boarding?

    • 1 year ago
  • Taymon
  • Charles_Miller
    • 0
      Charles_Miller  

    • Popsci has a long history of promoting fantasy. Technically feasible? perhaps. Practical? hardly. Where is my flying car and robot butler? A generation ago they predicted that those would be mass market items .

    • 1 year ago
  • James_Meyers1
    • 0
      James_Meyers1  

    • This reminds me of the science articles that spout "German scientists discover teleportation!", but in the details of the article they explain that a group of scientists used a mass of resources to move an "teleport" an atom a nanometer.

      This article isn't that drastic, but it is still absurdly unrealistic due to funding, resources, technology involved. Building a road that stretched the distance of the Atlantic would be expensive let alone building an advanced train tunnel.

      I'm just trying to be a realist. Optimistically, this thing couldn't be built in the next thirty years.

    • 1 year ago
  • artemis6
  • Dave_Rabbitt
    • 0
      Dave_Rabbitt  

    • we are running out of hydrocarbons that would require us to have the materials to build and run this & this the idea the politicians came up?

      They need to put their glass crack pipes down...

    • 1 year ago
  • Ichigoame
  • remanns
  • EdJoyProductions
  • leoyu0
  • bkerensa
  • Gerard_Van_der_Leun
  • WCWC
    • -1
      WCWC  

    • If the train is in a total vacuum the passengers will all explode. They could still get to London in an hour though, but not in any condition to go to the theater.

    • 1 year ago
  • WCWC
    • 0
      WCWC  
    • WCWC:

      Also the cleaning costs and turnaround time would be quite burdensome. There might only be time for one or two journeys daily. But with no repeat customers, maybe that would be manageable.

    • 1 year ago
  • WCWC
  • ColmBoston
    • +1
      ColmBoston  
    • WCWC:

      ok the inside of the train is not a total vacuum the tunnel is why would they need to vacuum seal the train? the hole idea is to stop any air resistance it doesnt make a blind bit of difference if theres air in the train as long as theres no air in the tunnel.

    • 1 year ago
  • WCWC
    • 0
      WCWC  
    • ColmBoston:

      Sorry ColmBoston, I was just making a joke. I'm sure the engineers and designers would make sure the train is sufficiently pressurized to safeguard the lives of the passengers.

    • 1 year ago
  • Darren8306
    • +1
      Darren8306  

    • This is a rip-off of 'Tunnel Through The Deeps' by Harry Harrison, full of cheesy construction heroes and ridiculous government funding. The tunnel sections were manufactured everywhere and shipped to the work area. Went from New York to England with a manufactured island stop off Newfoundland.

      Get on this project, guys!

    • 1 year ago
  • rbrockcoble
  • Jacob_Policarpio
  • remanns
  • GTReal
    • 0
      GTReal  

    • This idea is as doable as say teaching Chinese to the total population of Arkansas...and for as many reasons.

    • 1 year ago
  • Daniel_Robinson
    • 0
      Daniel_Robinson  

    • AWESOME idea... i could see, though, a vast number of tiny things that, if they were to malfunction, would mean certain disaster. also... that's a huge terrorist target. but i would still ride it!

    • 1 year ago
  • Rj_Goble
  • amsku125
    • +1
      amsku125  
    • Rj_Goble:

      G Force is a function of acceleration in a gravitational field. To minimize it though the idea is to accelerate until the halfway point then decelerate at that same rate until the destination is reached. Basically G-Force, in this case, is a function of how quickly kinetic energy is being imparted or released to/from the train, so the more spread out this is the less Gs passengers will experience. Given a 3471 mi. trip over the course of an hour the minimum G force is .177 Gs. Although this seems low it is the equivalent of a 35.4 lb weight pressing backwards (then forwards) on a 200 lb man...the entire trip. Also, this means the minimum top speed to achieve NY to London in 60 min. is 6946.4 mph (a % error from 4000 of 42.4%!) so NY to London in a train w/ top speed 4000 in 60 min. can't be done, and the minimum Gs if the trip takes 1 hour is .177G

    • 1 year ago
  • liquidjaguar
    • 0
      liquidjaguar  
    • amsku125:

      A top speed of 4000mph does not make the trip impossible, since obviously at 4000mph you can go 4000mi in 1 hour and 4000 > 3471 (I'm taking your word on the distance). Now yeah, I ignored the acceleration time there, but hear me out.

      Your "minimum G force" of .177 Gs is wrong. You can tell it's wrong because you find the trip to be impossible, and yet I showed above that with infinite G force (=instant acceleration), it is possible. So all we need is a higher minimum G force. I calculate that to make a 3471mi trip in 1 hour with a top speed of 4000mph, we need to accelerate to top speed in (4000-3471)/4000 hours, or .13225 hours. This works out to G-forces of .383 Gs for the first 13.225% of the trip and .383 Gs for the last 13.225% of the trip. (This works out to 7m56s on each end.)

      People could withstand .383 Gs for 8 minutes. After all, that would take far less effort than standing up under normal circumstances. (Of course, they are still experiencing 1G in the downward direction, so using the Pythagorean theorem we find that they are experiencing a total of 1.07G in a direction 21 degrees away from straight-down.) G-forces don't really seem to be a problem here.

      EDIT: Wikipedia (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/G-force#Horizontal_axis_g-force) says that people can sustain very high G-forces for a short time depending on the relative alignment of their bodies to the force.

    • 1 year ago
  • Chris_Pow
  • Stuart_McNeill
    • +1
      Stuart_McNeill  

    • Cool, but the concept is getting a bit ahead of itself. The main problem which I can see with this has already been highlighted below. The worlds largest vacuum chamber is only 100x120ft, way less than the requirements necesarry for a 4000 mile tunnel.
      Over time something like this could be achieved, but needs to be worked towards gradually. People laughed when it was first suggested that humans would one day be able to fly across the channel one mile high in the sky inside a winged aircraft. The build up to achieving this dream was gradual. The Wright brothers definitely werent aiming to span all the way across the atlantic during their first flight! Why not just try getting a train like this working on land first over a short distance? The fastest we have is the 300+mph capabilities of the bullet train. Even without being underwater this would be an immense achievement on its own!

    • 2 years ago
  • Tyler_VanDyk
  • MrAndySear
  • Psychobiker05
    • +1
      Psychobiker05  
    • MrAndySear:

      Their would still be air molecules floating around in the tunnel chamber. If I recall, scientists have still not been able to achieve a perfect vacuum devoid of all air. Hence the still aerodynamic.

    • 2 years ago
  • Tyler_VanDyk
  • explicit
  • Jonathan_Conley
    • 0
      Jonathan_Conley  

    • Matthew_Wild, the g forces is from pure acceleration, once at a constant speed is nothing else added to standard gravity. G's is a relative term to how much extra acceleration your body feels compared to the typical 9.81 m/s^2 (which is an acceleration).

    • 2 years ago
  • Matthew_Wild
    • 0
      Matthew_Wild  

    • So, this may be a stupid question, but how are they going to stop the g forces on the passengers inside the train once hitting 4k mph. Surely, it won't take a long time to get up to that speed. I understand they'd at least be able to reduce the g's, but not fully cancel them out. I'm seeing G-suits that the passengers will be needing to rent or buy, along with lots of organ failures! YAY!

    • 2 years ago
  • sqrueu17
    • 0
      sqrueu17  

    • what about the cost of pulling a vacuum that large? The world's largest vacuum chamber is only about 100 by 100 feet (and it belongs to NASA). This part sounds the hardest to me.

    • 2 years ago
  • Aaron_Birenbaum
    • +1
      Aaron_Birenbaum  

    • It's all easier said than done. They keep mentioning the costs are the only thing holding projects like this back.. well, the reason for that is that "costs" involve practically infinite supervision and planning. Working out the details for plans that might make something like this work would take billions upon billions of money spent on time and political bargaining. It could happen, I mean sure, the pyramids happened.

    • 2 years ago
  • davidmendez01
    • +4
      davidmendez01  

    • Imagine the security protocols on this? The TSA would be so excited to take this one over! They would require us to travel naked, still giving us a pat down and thats only after background check, DNA analysis and a letter from your mom.

    • 2 years ago
  • cashmoneykrew
  • ACSUS
  • Kevin_Kamp
    • 0
      Kevin_Kamp  

    • The train would also not need continual energy to keep it moving because there is no air friction to slow it down. So once it got to speed, theoretically i would only have to coast until it needs to be braked 3,000 miles later.

    • 2 years ago
  • Zachary_Branker
    • 0
      Zachary_Branker  
    • Kevin_Kamp:

      somewhat true, however, the track would curve downward with the ocean floor, and then back up once reaching the other end of the abyssal plain, and also it would have to traverse the mid atlantic ridge. it could coast, even accelerate on the downhills, but would most certainly need more power to ascend the inclines back to the surface, and maybe in the middle, if engineers decided to go over the ridge, which, now that i think of it, your can't run a tunnel through an active volcano, so that will be what they will most likely have to do.

    • 2 years ago
  • Russell_Bailey
  • Tate_Shepherd
    • 0
      Tate_Shepherd  
    • Zachary_Branker:

      Im pretty sure you are wrong.
      a perfect vacuum with our current knowledge is impossible to create, but lets just pretend it is and there is no air resistance, and that the frictionless track is indeed completely frictionless. Since there will be no work done by friction or air resistance, the shift between potential and kinetic energy would have no energy loss. So even with the peaks and valleys of the ocean floor as well as the atlantic ridge, the energy of the train would be conserved, and it would never need to use power to go up the hills in between london and new york because they are both at sea level, it doesnt actually have to go any higher then its starting point.

    • 2 years ago
  • Patrick_Barrett
  • Patrick_Barrett
    • 0
      Patrick_Barrett  
    • Tate_Shepherd:

      well said, but like you mentioned, there is no such thing as a frictionless track and there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum. To prevent photons from radiating from the actual track and the tunnel, it would have to be maintained at 0K which is pretty much impossible to do, even in a lab setting at this time...let alone a 3 thousand mile tunnel.

    • 2 years ago
  • Tyler_VanDyk
  • Tyler_VanDyk
    • 0
      Tyler_VanDyk  
    • Patrick_Barrett:

      ahhhh but you're wrong there mag-lev trains developed by china and japan along with tinkering done by other countries are indeed friction-less tracks as the train never actually touches the tracks. this solution is not perfect because a constant flow of energy would need to power the tracks but there are indeed frictionless tracks

    • 1 year ago
  • ACSUS
  • figgdimension
  • Ales_Cernigoj
  • memphisn8
  • Chaun_Earl
    • -2
      Chaun_Earl  

    • i just did a few calculations. at 1 full G of force (about the pull you feel when taking off in a jet) it would take just over 3 minutes to accelerate or decelerate from a dead stop to the full speed and vice versa. This would be ok for accelerating, but way too much of a pull on you when decelerating. It is feasible, but it would be annoying.

    • 2 years ago
  • phronge
    • 0
      phronge  
    • Chaun_Earl:

      The trip is intended to spend the first half of the trip accelerating to the 4,000mph, and the second half returning to a stop. This eliminates the g force issue. This idea has been kicking around for years.

    • 2 years ago
  • Steven_Betts
  • James_Leslie
    • 0
      James_Leslie  
    • Chaun_Earl:

      ... Your calculations are wrong just based on the fact that you forgot that we are constantly experiencing 1G.... Sitting on your ass in a chair = 1G Taking off in an airliner is slightly more.....

    • 2 years ago
  • John_Hirchberger
    • +1
      John_Hirchberger  

    • Ok Bridget, the life support air system would be contained within the train itself, kinda like the same thing on a plane or a space suit. and as for the moving ocean floor think of it as an upside-down chandelier you can move the ceiling above it to a certain extent without the chandelier being damaged. As for the heat there will be no heat created by the acceleration and deceleration (braking) of the train. the nice thing about mag-lev trains is the fact that no materials actually make contact. it uses electromagnets to suspend the whole train in the air. The easiest way to show this principle is to take two ring magnet like the ones we all played with as a child. take the magnets and put the magnets around a pencil and the like poles will repel each other suspending the one on top in mid air. this principle is applied on a grand scale so that the train will have almost frictionless motion.

    • 2 years ago
  • Zachary_Branker
    • 0
      Zachary_Branker  
    • John_Hirchberger:

      the issue, as i see it, wouldn't be the ocean floor moving, so much as what currents might do at that depth, which, i know almost nothing about. everything little movement or flex makes a huge difference when you're moving a train possibly weighing 50-60 tons? at velocities of 4000MPH. thats huge force. you don't want to redirect it even a millimeter. the stress on the tunnel would be terrific. and as far as cooling, i don't think the issue will be cooling, but heating. the near freezing temperatures of the deep ocean plus vacuum will no doubt mean the tunnel will have to be at a constant temperature to combat cracking and stressing due to extreme cold. i also have to wonder about how much energy would be lost simply conveying power to the electromagnets powering the rails. there is tremendous voltage chop over that much distance, plus cold. there'd be a lot of juice wasted just stepping up the power periodically to keep it at operating levels.

    • 2 years ago
  • Russell_Bailey
  • Patrick_Barrett
  • Bridget_Davis
    • 0
      Bridget_Davis  

    • I appreciate the idea of trying to make traveling faster across the big puddle but.....

      bad idea.....the ocean floor moves too much and how would the air system work if you are in vacuum ? The English Channel train goes 300mph and is on the same continental shelf. Plus the breaking time/acceleration time would be ridiculous and how would you control the heat generated by the acceleration and breaking time?

      Besides, the time they take to figure this out is when they build solar panel roads.

      I'll stick with flying..thanks.

    • 2 years ago
  • mackinthebox
    • 0
      mackinthebox  
    • Bridget_Davis:

      The movement of tectonic plates would also be my concern with this idea, although I doubt it would be significant and im sure it could be accounted for in the tunnel construction

      as for heat, what heat? its a vacuum in the tunnel so there would be little to no heat from the train moving through the tunnel
      The only heat created would be in the track and that could be cooled by seawater
      Heat is not going to be any kind of concern here I wouldnt think, there is a massive cooling system right outside the tunnel called "The Ocean..."

    • 2 years ago
  • King_Brian_Lion
  • Keslake_Hylton
    • 0
      Keslake_Hylton  

    • I've been wondering what would be the technology that would replace the Concord. I know it was expensive but there are billionaires and wealthy jesset types that would pay for this convenience in a heartbeat. Could you imagine seeing a Broadway show then hopping on a train and being in London in a Hour? When can I buy the tickets?

    • 2 years ago
  • Joanne_Young
    • 0
      Joanne_Young  

    • Man, can you imagine the travel sickness you'd get? Imagine how fast its going, wouldn't you be like locked to your seat? I dunno if I'd be comfortable travelling at that speed... It's a great idea, it would definately solve the problem for people with long distance relationships, such as myself, but the journey itself could be quite uncomfortable...

    • 2 years ago
  • priddysharp
    • 0
      priddysharp  
    • Joanne_Young:

      You only feel when the train is speeding up, slowing down or changing direction. If you didn't have windows and were already going full speed you wouldn't even be able to tell me if you were moving at all or not.

    • 2 years ago
  • Hotheifa_Maan
    • +3
      Hotheifa_Maan  

    • am studying civil engineering in london and am doing a presentation on this.. i love the idea... i mean the possibilities!!! stop being nagative this will be a step faward for man kind!!

    • 3 years ago
  • Rudy_Ferretti
    • 0
      Rudy_Ferretti  

    • This shows ANYTHING is possible so we can all take science and physics and throw it out the window, the reason I say this is because according to science it would not be possible BUT I trust above and beyond science.

      So science this it will be done and I know we will travel at or greater then the speed of light someday too.

      Anything can be done ANYTHING

    • 3 years ago
  • Dillon_Imhoff
  • Nicky_Cool
    • 0
      Nicky_Cool  

    • i think its a nice idea if this is done then it would b a nice invention for engineers of today's world.the best example of science and technology of this modern world and it would reveal what a human mind can do inspite of so much pressure.but it should be taken much more seriously than anything because if some accident occurs then it would b a nasty situtation for whole human life....

    • 3 years ago
  • pilot2paradise
  • Zachary_Branker
  • Ken_Camo
    • +1
      Ken_Camo  

    • I would be scared as hell to be one of the first people to ride this thing.
      What scares me is the fact that Security has got to be just as tight as an Airport, but if god forbid, someone tries to blow it up! i dunno if we would b able to swim to the surface.
      But I think a much BETTER idea would be to Go New York to LA! And have stops at every major city along the way. (of course have express track for NY-LA)

    • 3 years ago
  • Sean_Burton
    • 0
      Sean_Burton  
    • Image

    • I am surprised to see so much negative criticism on this matter. Humanity has made more technological progress in 50 years than in the previous 100,000 and it is therefore often difficult for us to fathom the sociological implications of advances in technology.
      We often impose our own narrow perception into tomorrows potentials. Consider Henry Ford and the difficult transition to automobiles. If the public at large imposed their personal preference for the horse and carriage onto the people of the future, we would not have the automobile technology of today.
      The Telsa S Electric car can travel 300 miles on a 45 minute charge (http://www.teslamotors.com/models/index.php)
      Don't fear technology, if anything fear the inevitable limitations imposed on technology and humanity by the economic system in which all institutions are confined.
      If the Telsa S interested you, I post similar information on my web site regularly.
      www.brockportzcan.com
      thanks for reading

    • 3 years ago
  • heretoclarify
    • 0
      heretoclarify  

    • ok yall read my name im 14 and smarter than yall. k ITS POWERED BY MAGNETS there would be no pollution and ITS IN A VACCUM there is no air friction. this thing wont effect anything except for people and transportation.

    • 4 years ago
  • SilenceNoMore
  • thepurplemoo
  • Drew_Richards
    • 0
      Drew_Richards  
    • heretoclarify:

      'ITS POWERED BY MAGNETS there would be no pollution'
      you understand that it would be powered by electro-magnets, right? and they need electricty to run....which is produced by polluting methods? just to 'clarify'....

    • 2 years ago
  • Hayden_Hall
  • MUBBASHIR007
    • 0
      MUBBASHIR007  

    • it will great invention for technology that we will never think about that once in a time train will run under water i think it willo be possible and it too good for progress and it is not wastage of money it too beneficial

    • 4 years ago
  • Mark701
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